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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kevin Beattie/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 13 February 2019 [1].

Kevin Beattie

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Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk), Dweller (talk), 12:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Described by Bobby Robson as the greatest England footballer he had ever seen, Beattie's story is one of tragedy and premature foreshortening in many senses. A complete footballer, an Ipswich legend, back when the Tractor Boys were a European force to be reckoned with, Beattie died a couple of months ago, and with the help of Dweller and some others, we've taken his article from rough start class to GA, and now wish to take that final step. All comments will, of course, be dealt with as soon as practicable. Thanks in advance. The Rambling Man (talk), Dweller (talk) 12:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the article benefited from a third-party copyedit by Ealdgyth --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:05, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ebbillings Unlike all of the other online references, refs 76 (The Irish Times article) and 82 (The Times article) are not archived. ebbillings (talk) 16:54, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

IABot refuses to archive them. I wasn't aware it was part of the FA criteria though. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:53, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to imply that making these changes was a requirement to meet a criterion; I only intended to note a minor inconsistency. Making this change—as you have done—just makes an excellent article a little bit better and more polished. ebbillings (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, thanks for the pointers. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hand-cranked them in. Yay! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:03, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review:

Each of the images included in the article are appropriately related to the article, are suitably licensed, and have succinct captions. None of them use an alt text, which could be added.

  • File:Perry Groves.jpg: Per MOS:ITALICTITLE, the title of Groves' book in the caption should be italicized. Also, the resolution of this file is lower than I would prefer, but this file appears to be best option currently available from Commons.

ebbillings (talk) 21:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I wasn't using it as a title but a descriptor. Hopefully now clarified. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:57, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hey guys, pity this is all rights reserved. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:33, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Some of the details in the infobox don't appear to be sourced anywhere and/or don't match the text. For example, it states he made four appearances for Colchester but the text says six. (Unless this discrepancy is as a result of the infobox footnote, in which case suggest clarifying that in the text).
    I've got three sources all saying different things, variously 3 (and 1 sub app?), 4 and 6, and no distinguishing between league appearances and other appearances, as required by the infobox, so I've removed that from the infobox but left the text. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Generally quotation marks shouldn't be used for blockquotes
    Removed. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes England Football Online a high-quality reliable source? Flown from the Nest?
    I've removed FFTN, as we didn't need it. I think it may be RS, but that's for another day. I've asked WP:FOOTY about EFO in the discussion I've begun here. Watch this space. If they say "no", we've got a bit of work to do, TRM. Thanks, Nikkimaria. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 23:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I replaced it in any case. Two uses were for winning the UEFA and FA Cup, easily sourced otherwise, one for the lack of UEFA medal (lost some detail [rules of the day]) but the essence remains. Height is now sourced to Finch. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Reliable, fwiw! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN11 appears to be a student project - what makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    Replaced with Grauniad. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN2 and 14 appear to be the same source, although with different author name spellings
    Indeed, fixed spelling per source and re-used. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN16: ISBN given at GBooks link doesn't match the one in this citation, can you verify? Also 2009 is sufficient for publication date - GBooks tends to be overprecise
    One is Kindle, one is paper, I've replaced with Kindle and reduced publication date per your requirement. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Finch: not seeing much about this publisher online, what is their quality control process?
    I don't know. I wasn't aware that we needed to analyse the quality of published authors' works, or their publishing companies. I'm not even sure where I'd even begin to answer such a question. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria Thanks. The Rambling Man and I will take a good look at that lot. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've responded to all but two at this time. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria One outstanding query now. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 23:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All done for now. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

Resolved comments from Giants 2008
Thanks Giants2008, we'll crack on with them. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:23, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All done, I think, Giants2008 --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:56, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a look now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:02, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues by Cas Liber
  • Beattie declined into alcohol abuse - sounds clumsy, how about "began drinking heavily", " drinking worsened" or something more anglosaxon?
    done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nonetheless, "despite having received £50,000 from a testimonial match with Ipswich ... Beattie lived for much of the rest of his life in straitened circumstances" - definitely can be rewritten without quotes. "in poverty" etc.
    done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I'd switch paras 1 and 2 of Post-football and family life - also makes the mention of wife's illness in para 1 more logical as she has already been introduced.
    I'm inclined to do this except I'm a pedant and think the words in the section heading are therefore in the wrong order. And I can't find a good pithy way to reorder them. Any ideas? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But overall it is an engaging read - all of the above are quibbles really and this is on track for FA-hood. Incidentally, I remember watching that 7-0 thrashing of WBA on the telly (I sorta like WBA as a second favourite team after Spurs...) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On it, thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 20:23, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber All done, bar one where I've asked a question back to you and another where I'm asking TRM. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:11, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On thinking about it, it's not a dealbreaker so support on comprehensiveness and prose Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz

Resolved issues by JennyOz

- placeholder for now, nearly there. JennyOz (talk) 12:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, looking forward --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 20:23, 8 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello TRM and Dweller, I've been watching this blossom since its appearance at RD. I have a lot of comments (Dweller don't worry, TRM is used to my nitpicking) but most are simple suggestions for concision. Without access to Finch, I've had to guess some things so ask for clarity and others are more to do with my minimal understanding of how leagues etc work. I'm really happy for you to ignore suggestions not useful. I have a few more questions/comments that I will hopefully add tomorrow, though nothing major.

Lede
  • position - lede says "centre-half" (half), infobox says "Central defender" (defender)
    Hmm. Anachronism ain't what it used to be. Centre-half is old fashioned speak and is what he'd have called himself. I've fixed the infobox. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • team-mates - others are teammate no hyphen
    Great spot! I've gone the other way and hyphennated them all --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:05, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The early part of Beattie's life was a tale of rags to riches, - not really early part of "life", early part of career?
    Fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 17:02, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • before finding purpose once more - again?
    Not sure what the issue is here --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • new career in later life in commenting - is second "in" needed?
    Nice. Fixed. And I fixed a bit more than that, too. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • on the television and radio - is 'the' necessary?
    Hah! Just addressed this before I read your comment. Agreed! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Former Ipswich (and later England) manager Bobby Robson -"former" and "later" is confusing, why not just Ipswich and England manager?
    Because that implies two errors. Both that he had the two roles simultaneously (he didn't) and that he still holds them (he's dead). The point is that he managed Beattie at Ipswich, so has the authority to talk about Beattie, and managed England after Beattie's time, so is well placed to contextualise his skill. Is it really confusing? Might need a bit of a headscratch to find a pithy way to explain this suitably for a lead. --15:34, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
Early life
Career
Later career
International
Playing style
Incidents and controversies
  • train pulled into Carlisle station - add 'en route' - not knowing train lines/geography "pulled into" can sound terminal but Carlisle just happened to be a stop en route? JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Post-football and family life
  • injuries gave Beattie difficulties in later life: by the time - colon should be semi?

That's it for now. Thanks, JennyOz (talk) 13:04, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, yummy, thanks for that. You've put in a lot of work and the article will be better for it. My onwiki time is limited and only TRM has the book, so it may take a few days to work through it all, but we will. Thanks again. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 19:10, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Misc

That's it now. Thank you both for your patience! JennyOz (talk) 10:40, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz. I'll try to get to some your extremely helpful comments in the next couple of days, assuming I'm not summarily blocked for some kind of implied sanction infringement. My edits are being watched by numerous editors who are looking for anything to get me blocked, ably assisted by a recent Arbcom "clarification". Thanks again for your review! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No worries TRM, I understand you've been pre-occupied. I've been watching Dweller dealing with some of my suggestions. As I said at top, I'm really happy for you to ignore suggestions not useful! I remain totally confused by the "... England Never Had" bit and look forward to understanding why Finch said that. Regards both, JennyOz (talk) 09:34, 15 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz apologies for the delay, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to take a look over what we've done so far and see what concerns may remain? Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dweller and TRM, sorry for delay in responding to ping (keyboard problems). I've added replies to comments above and here are a few new minor ones...

  • curtailed bya self-inflicted - add space after by
  • Maggie - "she featured in the Radio Times in a "Footballers' Wives" feature - swap "she featured in" to 'she appeared in' or similar to avoid repetition featured/feature?
  • Player of the Year award.[26] and was - remove full stop after "award"
  • Beattie found himself unemployed at various points - "found himself" is a bit iffy/unencyclopedic. Is 'was unemployed' enough?
  • He also missed part of pre-season for Colchester by "straining too much" while defecating, resulting in a pulled stomach muscle.[16] - is this really worth the mention? Was it widely reported? I'm not being prudish, it just seems a relative nothing esp during pre-season and at a club he only made 6 appearances for.
    I doubt it'd get much coverage - Colchester have rarely made much news. It's whimsical and adds a little, ahem, colour. Could come out, but I think that'd be a shame. It's been sourced imeccably, a team mate who was there. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:15, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both for dealing with my nitpicks, regards JennyOz (talk) 11:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz thanks, your latest comments all dealt with bar the last one which I'm going to leave to Dweller to answer. I have to say my mother also questioned the appropriateness of the lurid tale, it might be that now we have so much other material, and enough to substantiate that Beattie led a bizarre and injurious career, we can drop this tidbit. I'll sift through the rest of the comments shortly and see what else I can do to address the outstanding issues. Thanks again for your diligence. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:15, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JennyOz I think I've located and dealt with the other comments you left, if you'd be kind enough to do one more double-check, that'd be great. Many thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a grand record of his life and career and a fine example of teamwork from you both. It's been a pleasure to work with you two old-fashioned editors and to learn about Beat and some more about soc football. Thanks Dweller and TRM, I'm happy to support. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 12:05, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check

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Taking a look now.....

Resolved spot check by Cas Liber
  • FN 45 used once - checks out ok
  • FN 73 used once - source mentions he was a scout and had a coaching role. Former not in article...? Is it worth mentioning somewhere that he had a soft spot for Carlisle United?
    It's prominent in the Early life section --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    d'oh my bad Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:43, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 95 used once - checks out ok
  • I can't see the Finch Book, but Bobby Robson's autobiography corroborates the signing story well (had to remember that Best played for Northern Ireland)
  • Earwigs copyvio has an inflated score due to an appropriately attributed quote, so is all good.

Ok - happy wit what I seen here. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:04, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cas. If Best had been English, I think England might even have beaten the incredible 1970 Brazilians and won a second successive World Cup. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:11, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Chronology career The Times 8 February 1985 p.27: Beattie, who has been playing in Sweden but has returned to England for the winter, has signed for Bury Town. Search results and snippet preview suggest he played for Sandviken in 1984, not later. [2] Cattivi (talk) 10:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cattivi I'll try to look into the chronology issue, but in the meantime, any chance that any of those articles you link there could be translated and used in the article? Looks like a little goldmine there to me... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:20, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having said that, a lot, and I mean a lot of those hits appear to be results listing other English players too. Nothing necessarily to do with Sandvikens. Can you find something concrete for me to work on? Players could obviously return "for the winter" and then go back again (and Bury was non-League so no issue with him playing in both "simultaneously" as it were). The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked a friend who has copies of Årets Fotball (A Swedish football Yearbook). He is in the 1985 edition page 173: 1984 Sandvikens IF 10 games 1 goal, but not in the 1986 or 1987 editions. If Beattie returned to Sandvikens, he did it without actually playing in official matches for them. I can't translate anything because I haven't got full access to the articles. I have the same problem with the Norwegian Newspaper Archive. [3] !985-86 Barnet is correct, but he only played 1 game for them. Source: Alliance to conference 1979-2004 the first 25 years compiled by John Harman page 61. Cattivi (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cattivi That may have been the case. Without reliable sources saying the contrary, I'm not sure what to do here. As for "but he only played 1 game for them", well sources differ on that too, so we haven't mentioned how many appearances he made. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, looks like he played for Barnet part-time after he left 'Boro, and then got a transfer to Sandviken "only two years" after failing to be part of the UEFA Cup winning side. Book's out of order. Adjusted article. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Steve Whitworth played his last league game for Mansfield Town on the 14th of May 1985. He signed for Barnet close seaason 1985 (Dave Smith & Paul Taylor of fossils & Foxes (Second edition 2001) page 468. The Alliance to Conference book confirms this, all his league appearances for Barnet were in the 1985/86-1988/89 seasons. I know club historians can include whatever they want in their statistical records. Maybe Beattie played in the Bob Lord Trophy for Barnet or in a friendly. It isn't necessarily wrong to write 'Beattie played two games for Barnet', if you have a source for that. But if you want league only stats, the Arets books and Alliance to Conference are fine. Beattie played a lot more than 228 matches for Ipswich, there are sources for that. But would this mean there really is a contradiction? Cattivi (talk) 21:15, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is Beattie himself saying he played for Barnet when he did, and it's altogether possible that's the case. And no, only the infobox demands "league only" stats (which is always odd, but this isn't the place to debate that point). I appreciate your investigative work, but it all seems circumstantial and nothing definitive. And to be honest, I'm finding it difficult picking through your various notes to determine what the "truth" you're asserting might be. Perhaps someone else could help here? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I will stop posting here. One last question: Does Finch mention a specific year when he wrote Beattie joined Barnet? I'm not denying Beattie joined Whitworth at Barnet. In fact, this confirms it was 1985. The sentence is fine, but the dates and chronology of his later career are not. All I tried to do was give some other sources to determine when all this has happened: Not before the summer of 1985. And there is a solid source for Beattie playing for Sandvikens in 1984. Cattivi (talk) 22:52, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't mention the year he joined Barnet, because had it done so, I imagine this would all have been resolved by now. I'll take another look at this section, it may be that we need to remove the chronology asserted by the Finch book (as noted, the Sandvikens move was "two years after" the UEFA Cup win for Ipswich, and that has already been adjusted in the article to match). It's altogether possible that Beattie just remembered it the wrong way round and Finch just took him at his word rather than checked that particular ordering. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:14, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fitch's chronology has Beattie leaving Boro, getting a payout, getting bored and then signing for Barnet. After a hit-and-miss time there, he quit through injury again to work as a labourer. The book then mentions this "it was only two years since I had been part of an Ipswich team .... UEFA Cup" etc, so that would have been the 1980/81 season. At this point (1983 presumably) he played for Harwich and Parkeston. Then he was offered the move to Sandvikens. So it appears that his recollection of moving to Barnet after Boro is probably incorrect, that he did that between Sandvikens and Kongsberg, where he "spent three seasons" before a last season in Scandinavia at Nybergsund IL-Trysil (1988 per an independent source). Perhaps we just add "Barnet and" to the sentence where he is noted to have played for Clacton Town. Also, beyond that Times headline (I can't access the source), there is no evidence anywhere that he actually played for Bury Town. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

<-Excellent stuff, both of you. Fitch's book will have been heavily based on interviewing Beattie, whose memory (especially as an alcoholic) may not have been 100% reliable. We don't need to speculate too much. I think we ought to 1) specify hard stats given by RS in the infobox and 2) caveat our narrative with a footnote that explains that there is a lack of clarity in the sources about exact chronology. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:14, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Cattivi do you have any more to add? I think we are almost there now, but one thing I noticed is that we are maybe overusing "Beattie" in places, notably in the "Career" section as a quick ctrl-F shows. Sarastro (talk) 22:07, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, only circumstancial evidence. I see no reason why Nordahl was still managing Sandvikens in 1985 [4] Beattie scored a hattrick on his debut for Kongsberg on 20 June 1987. [5] So he didn't play for them for at least one third of the season. 60 goals is really a lot. Or it isn't when you include the goals you score in practice matches. Cattivi (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1 removed a dozen or so instances of Beattie. Hope it hasn't resulted in any confusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sarastro1 Dweller has done a few more. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:39, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ian

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Demarcating comments below that I began on 14 Jan, and officially recusing as coord... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:53, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Scanning the article a few days ago, it looked to me like we were over-quoting, and that some of those quotes worth retaining could use inline attribution. I can try and return in the next 24h to be more specific, or the nominators could start the ball rolling by reviewing and considering whether some quotes could just be paraphrased, and if those retained are opinions that need inline attribution. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think Dweller added the majority of the quotes, which I think actually enrich the article beyond a bland, characterless biography. If attribution is required then I'm sure it can be added but with the risk of bloating an already person-rich prose further, hence the "overuse" of "Beattie" noted above by Sarastro. As this nomination has been going on for a semi-infinite amount of time, I'm certainly happy to wait for specifics. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:27, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose were you going to give us those specifics please? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:39, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Let's kick off (pun unintended) with the lead: "cursed by being both injury and accident prone" -- this a succinct opinion of the subject's travails, so probably worth keeping, but it is after all an opinion, particularly the emotive word "cursed", so I'd expect inline attribution (simply to the Daily Telegraph if the journo isn't wiki-notable).
  • I think it's all right myself, but if proper attribution for a quote does make things look clumsy then it may be another reason to paraphrase instead -- or perhaps paraphrase in the lead and save the quote for the main body. Anyway I'm fine with this as is. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beattie supported his local football team, Carlisle United, and idolised the players. He recalled "I would have loved to have played for the club and although I couldn't afford to see too many games, I always scoured the newspapers for the match reports and often hung around Brunton Park". "One of my heroes ... was the club's star striker Hughie McIlmoyle ... I remember joining a group of other fans after one game in the pouring rain, in the hope that I could get his signature. After hanging around for an age, Hughie eventually emerged ... but brushed past me and brusquely told me he was in a rush." Beattie was "devastated" and resolved to never turn down autograph hunters. -- this para is mostly quotes, none particularly memorable in themselves; how about summarising along these lines? Beattie supported his local football team, Carlisle United, and idolised players like Hughie McIlmoyle. He recalled being "devastated" when McIlmoyle was too busy to sign an autograph outside the club, resolving to never turn down such requests.
  • The poverty Beattie came from was evident when he arrived in Ipswich wearing his father's shoes, as he did not have "a proper pair of his own", so when Ipswich signed him, they immediately bought him some clothes." -- I think you could safely lose as he did not have "a proper pair of his own" and still make the point clear.
  • "I was also able to help my parents at home and began sending them some money each week." -- covered by the previous sentence about supporting his family, and partially repeated in the next quote about domestic violence; it should go.
  • "a combination of the drink and depression" -- is this the biographer, or Beattie himself, or someone else speaking?
  • he began drinking very heavily and was on one occasion, given the last rites when his pancreas "gave up". He considered suicide, before caring for his wife who was seriously unwell helped him get "his life back on the right track". -- couple of issues with this bit beyond the question of over-quoting: the term used by Grove is "packed up", not "gave up", and I don't see Grove making a direct causal connection between Beattie caring for his wife and getting back on track.
  • Following up, after finding by accident these issues with the Groves reference, I decided to spotcheck the rest of the citations to that source. I found one very minor instance where a word was rendered inexactly (which I fixed) but no other probs in that regard. My concern with Grove overall though is whether he should be used as a source for this info on Beattie's personal life or instead be restricted to discussions of Beattie's playing career, since it's a subject on which he clearly has expertise. Beattie's wife's illness and his caring for her is mentioned below, cited to another source, but it seems Groves is our sole source for the pancreatic problems and contemplation of suicide -- I think we need more ironclad references for that sort of thing. The question then arises is whether Finch is that ironclad -- looking at Nikkimaria's source review earlier, I'm not sure if she was fully convinced of his reliability, but perhaps she could confirm and/or offer her perspective on the above... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:13, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Finch issue is odd for me, it's a published book which contains effectively a synopsis of a load of interviews with the subject. I don't see an issue with this being used for non-controversial items at all. As for the contemplation of suicide, pancreas problems and pulling himself together to look after his wife, all are covered adequately elsewhere (e.g. here, here, here, here etc etc) so it seems satisfactory to me. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hear you but would still like to get a reality check from Nikki on the above. BTW, it's fine to say there are other sources for this stuff but I can't see any of them being used in the article at the moment. In the meantime, I've been bold and tweaked the article to at least better reflect what Groves says by my reading of him. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • As above, without more details on editorial process (did anything come of the query about the publisher being an imprint?), I'd be looking at this as effectively self-published, and thus not ironclad for replacing/supplementing Groves in that context. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don’t what to offer you here. If you believe that source to be unreliable then we need to close this FAC as soon as possible as a fail. Nowhere else can such detail be found than in a book which contains the contents of many interviews with the subject. I can’t add anything else to this discussion and given the glacial rate of “progress” here, I’ll leave it to Dweller when he has time to respond. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:01, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I said above, the publishing credentials seem fine. Is there any specific issue remaining unresolved now? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:23, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sure we're all keen to wrap this up. Nikki, just to confirm, you're satisfied with Finch as a source for non-controversial items, but not to replace/supplement Groves re. pancreatic issues, last rites, and suicidal thoughts -- can I just check if you're happy with Groves as the sole source in the article for those? If so, TRM/Dweller, then I'm happy to call it a day here. If not, then I'd suggest you supplement with some of those newspaper sources TRM mentioned earlier. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Finch is fine for non-controversial stuff. Dweller, I'm not sure what you mean by "the publishing credentials seem fine" - is this in reference to Finch or Groves? My opinion is it would be better to supplement with newspaper sources, unless there's something I'm missing. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:31, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Finch. Is there a particular claim in the article you think needs an additional source? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 01:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The pancreatic issues, consideration of suicide, pulled stomach muscle, and wearing his father's shoes. In terms of the other discussions of early financial issues, I'd prefer to see these claims attributed in-text if not provided with additional sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So now we're casting doubt on Groves as well? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Only the stomach anecdote I can't back up elsewhere at this time. I'm not clear what else you need backing up in terms of "early financial issues". Please be specific. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why his father turned down Aston Villa, for example - is that documented elsewhere, or was that just a young Beattie's understanding of the issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it'll be documented only in his autobiography because his father was non-notable, having a trial for a club isn't exactly something that gets recorded anywhere one could consider WP:RS, that's somewhat obvious as far as I can tell. We can say that it's according to Beattie (Kevin) if that fact really so troublesome. Anything else, specifically? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why his father gave up work (this doesn't seem to be in FN7 that I can see) and why he went to Catholic school. Both would be fine if attributed in-text. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's because it's in the footnote afterwards, because you required a footnote placed in between. Why he went to Catholic school? Because the grammar school was so expensive, as it says. One imagines the Catholic school was either cheaper or free, but I don't see why we need to add "why" he went there. Why is this in any way controversial given he'd been to a Catholic junior school? Perhaps I'm not following what you're trying to say. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Essentially, I'd like in each of those three cases for the article to explicitly attribute the reasoning provided - his father couldn't work due to back problems, he went to Catholic school because grammar school is expensive, and his father didn't play for Aston Villa because he'd make more money doing other things - to Beattie. With that done, and with the stomach muscle bit either sourced elsewhere if possible or removed, I'd have no further objections. Ian, what about you? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:44, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't think any of those are controversial at all. Not working because of a back problem affects millions of people. We all know that grammar schools were more expensive than state schools (school uniform discussion above too), and footballers of that day weren't well paid. Nothing needs attribution there as all of it is commonplace. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Millions of people don't work due to reasons other than back problems, or choose one school over another for reasons unrelated to the cost of a uniform, or turn down a job offer for some reason other than wages. I don't see a particular harm in indicating that these were the reasons provided by Beattie. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
None of the above are in any sense controversial. I'll let Dweller work these out if he has time because this is becoming a little silly now. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My difficulty here is that I no longer understand the purpose of the requests. Why are we being asked to double cite things that aren't even contentious? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dweller: You aren't. My request was simply for in-line attribution to Beattie. The only item for which an additional citation is pending is the pulled stomach muscle, and really if you'd rather you can just take that out. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What appears to be required here is the repetitive "according to Beattie" in each case, plus a double-cite for something that is now, apparently, no longer a reliable source. My question is do we really need to destroy the prose to accommodate this, or do we just say thanks for the advice and move on? After all, not one single other reviewer has had any problem with this. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for my tardiness... tbh I'm not too fussed about another citation for the stomach muscle thing, which I see as fairly minor compared to claims of depression, suicidal thoughts, etc. OTOH I think the request for inline attribution to Beattie is reasonable, and I don't think it has to be "according to" in all cases; there could be variations such as "as Beattie put it", "in Beattie's words", "Beattie recalled", etc. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:10, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it'll make the prose unreadable. Isn't the purpose of quote marks to show it's a quote and the inline citation to show where it's come from? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 20:46, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • by the time he was a "53 year old grandfather of six", he was "unable to walk more than half a mile" -- this degree of quoting is getting pretty fannish, can be paraphrased as by the time he was 53, he had serious difficulties walking or something similar.
There may be still more quotes that should be attributed or trimmed, but those are the ones that stood out. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:51, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Happy with actions/responses, just one outstanding at this stage. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Has this officially stalled? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:16, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the deafening silence is self-explanatory... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SN54129

edit
Well; I can see a split infinitive; is fourth round not hyphenated; commas that are occasionally absent or present; and of course it's terribly amusing to refer to the Guardian inline like that :p
I imagine it's purely my ignorance/pettiness. It's a great article, well-deserving to the feller himself. And that's said as one who remembers fortnightly clashes between ITFC and WHUFC. Glory days indeed. Congrats! ——SerialNumber54129 15:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Serial Number 54129, thanks for that. I'll find and fix the fourth round. Lmk if there are any other things you'd like fixed. To help the coordinators, it'd be lovely if you indicated clearly if you support the nomination. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:19, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dweller: I'll probably oppose until you find that split-infinitive ,) ——SerialNumber54129 19:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got it... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Serial Number 54129 --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SC

edit
Lead
Early life
Senior
Later career
  • A couple of words to introduce John Lyons – for those who don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Welsh or Essex footballers? "Colchester team mate John Lyons" or similar would provide the hint of context needed
    Added "teammate" as Colchester is implicit. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:16, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • last coaching position – any idea of a year or season?
    I'll need to look at Finch, laters... The Rambling Man (talk) 10:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've seen some crap excuses for players missing matches, but straining at stool is the best I've ever heard!

That's it from me – a nicely put together article that covers all I'd expect to see. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 09:39, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All done bar the Finch one. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Happy to support this as it stands. If you could fill in the year of the last coaching position it would stop any future questions on the point, but this is good to pass without that. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:07, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers SchroCat, comments and support much appreciated. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:42, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harrias talk

  • This may well be referred to above, but forgive me for not trawling through the whole review: is there is a reason only Beattie's Ipswich appearances and goals appear in the infobox?
  • In the Career section, it says "The following season was Beattie's and Ipswich's first appearances in a European competition..." But Ipswich had played in the 1962–63 European Cup as English champions the previous season.
  • "..broke Stoke City's John Ritchie's leg." Not keen on the "xxx's yyy's" construction, it seems a bit clunky to me, but I'm not that bothered if you prefer not to change it.
  • "...he insisted he was able to play in the away leg. Robson disagreed and he was left out of the side for the away leg, and Ipswich were knocked out on penalties." Is the repetition of "away leg" necessary? Again, not a deal breaker.
  • "...he began drinking very heavily and was on one occasion, given the last rites when his pancreas "packed up"." No need for the comma after "occasion".
  • "...and managed to get "his life back on the right track"." Whose quote is that, his or Groves? Would probably be worth clarifying.

Really good article about a player I knew nothing about previously. In fact, I'll own up to initially thinking I was going to be reading about James Beattie! Nothing too major from me. Harrias talk 13:39, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Harrias cheers, done all bar a couple... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Six supports now, after a near-infinite amount of time, this is good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another two days pass, is this thing still on? The Rambling Man (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: This has been open a long time (I would have done this sooner but real life has been a little busy and I apologise), and I think we have a consensus to promote. The only issue that has caused some discussion in the sourcing, re the Finch book and the request for inline attribution. Given that we seem unlikely to reach a perfect consensus on this (and there has been so much discussion, it's a little tricky to tell where we are on the issue now), I think it is time to move on. The main thing is that the sourcing is reliable, and while my personal inclination would be to use inline attribution for all the cases, I can see the viewpoint of the nominators. As far as I can see, I think we are following the MoS enough without being too pedantic, and I consider the sourcing issues to have been addressed sufficiently to promote. But perhaps any further discussion on the issue could take place on the talk page after promotion. It may also be worth someone taking a look at duplinks; there are a few but I leave it up to the main editors to decide if they are necessary or not. Sarastro (talk) 22:49, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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