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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Loihi Seamount/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:18, 15 September 2009 [1].

Loihi Seamount

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Nominator(s): ResMar 14:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Well, this is this article's third nomination. After the most recent unsuccesful nomination I went on a long break from Wikipedia, well now I'm back and ready to try again. This has been my project" since the first of March, so I've officially been "working on it" for 6, going into 7, months. ResMar 14:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alt text???? Well that's new. How old is this guidline, a couple of weeks??? Never seen it before...are al images now required to have an alt text? ResMar 18:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome back to Wikipedia. Support for alt text was added to the MediaWiki software last October, the WP:ALT guideline was updated a couple of months later, and it has been required for FAs since July 1. If you'd like help or suggestions please drop a line at WT:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 18:27, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dammit. Knowing my shoddy word work it's going to be discussed a thousand times over before I get it right. ResMar 18:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 18:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe not a thousand times, but at least once. Thanks for adding the alt text, but it has a couple of problems:
  • Some Much of the alt text duplicates the caption. For example, the alt text "Bathymetric mapping of Lōʻihi, with an arrow pointing to Pele's Pit in the center." nearly duplicates the caption "Bathymetric mapping of Lōʻihi; the arrow points to Pele's Pit." Alt text should not repeat the caption; see WP:ALT#Repetition. This is because the alt text and the caption are both read aloud to visually impaired readers who use a screen reader.
  • One image still lacks alt text, namely File:Loihiflank.jpg (please use the "Photo alt" parameter of {{Infobox Seamount}}).
Eubulides (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 19:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that edit added alt text for the image that lacked it, so I struck that comment. However, its changes to the other alt text entries did not address the repetition problem. For example, for Image:LoihiBathemetric.jpg a screen reader will read the alt text and caption aloud, resulting in unwanted repetition something like "Link Bathymetric mapping of Lōʻihi, with an arrow pointing to Pele's Pit in the center. Link Bathymetric mapping of Lōʻihi; the arrow points to Pele's Pit." (alt text italicized); the repetition obviously is not helping the visually impaired. (Please see WP:ALT#Repetition for more details about this.) To fix this, please edit the alt text for that image to something that gives useful info about visual appearance but does not repeat the caption, e.g., "A north-south ridge, trending slightly east of south. Pele's Pit, at its peak, is about 1000 meters below sea level; further south the ridge gradually descends about 3500 meters to the sea floor." Similarly for the other images. Eubulides (talk) 22:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get it. is this alt thing supposed to describe the image or elaborate on the caption? I can't do both. ResMar 23:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ResMar 13:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's much better. It's pretty close to being done. There are a few remaining points.
  • The alt text "See caption." for File:LoihiBacteria.jpg doesn't communicate the striking visual aspects of that image, namely, the green slimy growths on the rocks in the main image, or the entwined spirals in the inset. Please put those details into the alt text (there's little point putting them in the caption, as they're obvious to sighted readers).
  • The phrase "found on the flank of Lōʻihi" can't be verified by a non-expert simply by looking at that image; please remove or rephrase it as per WP:ALT#Verifiability.
  • The alt text for the two maps File:LoihiBathemetric.jpg and File:Loihi 3d.gif concentrates too much on irrelevant details such as "blue" and "orange" and too little on the gist of what the maps say. Please see WP:ALT#Maps for more on this. I suggest replacing the 1st map's alt text with the "north-south ridge..." suggestion above, and the 2nd map's alt text with a simple "3D rendering of the same map as before". By the way, why have two maps of the same thing? Wouldn't it be better to have just one map?
Eubulides (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. However I am not going to remove the second image because it is in fact different from the first one (I REALLY don't feel like removing any images because then the page will start to look bare). ResMar 23:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that. I don't have a strong opinion on the two-map issue. I tweaked the remaining alt text problems that I saw, and the result looks good to me. Thanks again. Eubulides (talk) 02:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Well Res, I owe you a lot so I'll help with the review. Each possibly "challengable" sentence requires a citation.
  • Volcanoes in the Hawaiian Islands arise from the Hawaiʻi hotspot, and, as the youngest volcano in the chain, Lōʻihi is the only Hawaiian volcano in the deep submarine preshield stage of development. - rm the comma after and, not needed
Done. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • At its summit, Lōʻihi Seamount stands more than 3,000 m (10,000 ft) above the seafloor, making it taller than Mount St. Helens was before its catastrophic 1980 eruption.- This is an American article, so the figures should be ft then mtrs, throughout the article. I know this is one tedious task to complete, but please be sure to convert all the figures to proper format.
Um, Cer, a whiles ago we were told to convert it to meters, and now I have convent everything back into feet? It's not really an issue as long as both are shown. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ceranthor, this is not an "American article" with a focus on all things "American". This is a scientific article about a seamount, and such articles use SI first and foremost, even the American scientists quoted in the sources. Viriditas (talk) 01:26, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lōʻihi's north and south trending rift zones create a distinctive elongated shape, - better with an WP:ENDASH between north and south, rm the and
  • Lōʻihi's north and south trending rift zones create a distinctive elongated shape, from which the volcano's Hawaiian name, meaning "long," derives. - cite?
Done. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The seafloor under Hawaiʻi is 80-100 million years old and was created at the East Pacific Rise, an oceanic spreading center where new sea floor is created from magma erupting from the mantle. - cite?
Entire paragraph falls under one citation, at the end. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When scientists investigated a series of earthquakes off Hawaiʻi in 1970, they discovered that Lōʻihi was an active member of the Hawaiian-Emperor seamount chain. - cite?
Again, at the end of the paragraph. We had a problem with overcitation before similar to what you want me to do and simplified it. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the samples were found to be of ancient origin; the oldest dated rock is approximately 300,000 years old. - cite?
Again, citation at the end of the paragraph. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most earthquake swarms at Lōʻihi have lasted less than two days; the two exceptions are the 1991–92 earthquake, lasting several months, and the 1996 event, which was shorter but much more pronounced. - cite?
Already cited. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The majority of the earthquakes are not distributed close to the summit, though they follow a north-south trend. - cite?
End of paragraph. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lōʻihi Seamount's first depiction on a map was on Survey Chart 4115, a bathymetric rendering of part of Hawaiʻi compiled by the US Coast and Geodetic Survey in 1940. - cite?
Already cited to Garcia at end of paragraph. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the time, the seamount was non-notable, being one of many in the region. - cite?
Already cited. We can't cite very single fact in the article directly, when it's far more feasible to give a ref at the end of a paragraph of text related to it instead of notching 3-4 of these refs inside of the paragraph.

More later.

I think the prose needs work too in general. It is somewhat choppy, I'd suggest asking one of the copyeditors I previously recommended. ceranthor 12:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Choppy? If this FAC fails on vauge intangible ideas I will knock myself in the head. Anyway Ark already copyedited the article as did Vid (multiple times), me, Avenue, JKBrooks, Mattisse, and Micheal Devore. Truth to tell you I REALLY think that further copyediting wouldn't be feasible, it's already had multiple going-overs. ResMar 13:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Scientists speculate that Loihi may create its own island, but due to its proximity to the main landmass it's more likely to merge with the rest of the island as the newest "section." Considering its going to be quite a while before this happens no one knows for sure. (Thanks for the support, I really appreciate any sort of votes because this tends to stagnate) ResMar 03:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I would have thought that would merit a line such as "ultimately the island formed by Loihi may merge with the neighbouring island of Hawaii'i". ϢereSpielChequers 12:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(although before that, due to lack of study, scientists did not know it was actually active) - I think this is redundant (?)
Removed. ResMar 13:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
..and photographed Lōʻihi's summit with the goal of studying whether Lōʻihi is active. - know what you mean but sounds odd.
changed it to potographs to be less akward; if you have any suggestions please give them because I'm not quite sure how to change it. ResMar 13:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I am thinking about it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The researchers were continually met by clouds of sulfide and sulfate. The sudden collapse of Pele's Vents caused a large discharge of hydrothermal material and sulfide. - is the second 'sulfide' here redundant as it is included in the descriptor of 'hydrothermal material'?
Removed the redundant part. I'm really thankful for your extensive copyedit, I'm hoping that it will finally resolve the issues with "choppy" text. Big thanks! ResMar 00:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There aren't any standout deal-breaker prose-glitches left for me, but others might find a few tweaks. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I sure do hope three votes isn't failable... ResMar 00:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the only thing that is lacking is an image review. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:06, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless some new images that have been added that I'm unaware of, the images check out. Of course, I'm a secondary contributor so perhaps I'm biased. However, I have had to remove images from this article in the past, and I believe a few were deleted due to my efforts. I also politely requested the removal of the black smoker image, and ResidentMario eventually complied. So I'm fairly certain the images check out. Viriditas (talk) 03:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Requested image check results:
    • File:Loihi 3d.gif was created during NOAA-funded work, but are we sure it was created by an NOAA employee?
      • All NOAA images are in the public domain. We know that the image was created by the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory (HURL), and we know that HURL was created by NOAA and the University of Hawaii, in partnership, to support the University and NOAA. The people involved have to be approved by NOAA and the equipment needed to capture the image was probably purchased with federal funds. The bottom line is that University doesn't pay anything because the entire program is federally funded.[2] Now, to answer your question. The image was apparently captured by scientist John Smith of the Marine Geology and Geochemistry Division (MGGD) with support from graphic designer Brooks Bays. Both of these people appear to be employees of the University of Hawaii, but their work was funded by NOAA. For more details on these things, see this site. Viriditas (talk) 11:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry for coming to the article so late. From what I can see (totally non-expert), it has a historical scope and an encyclopedic prose style. The references and images and technical things all seem to check out. The red-links are viable future articles. It is succinct with room for expansion (but not lacking perse). I give my support.~ZytheTalk to me! 14:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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