Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mangalorean Catholics/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 13:40, 26 March 2011 [1].

Mangalorean Catholics

Nominator(s): Joyson Noel (talk • contributions) 13:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is the article’s second nomination for FA status. It currently holds GA status. I believe that this article satisfies the current criteria for FA, as it is well-researched and well-referenced with credible sources. All the images are either in the public domain or have been released under Creative Commons licenses. Having failed the previous nomination, the article has since been thoroughly copy-edited by User:Diannaa and User:Mike Searson, not to mention myself. The spellings have been anglicized to correspond with Indian English, which uses the British variant of spelling. Furthermore, the article has undergone a peer review. See this. All the issues raised therein have been addressed. Another user Kensplanet had previously requested a peer review for the purpose of ascertaining whether it met the FA requirements or not. See here. In the interest of avoiding repetitive questions, i would suggest that the concerned reviewer/s go through the above links, as well as this link to the article’s previous nomination. Thanks. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 13:52, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - not to be discouraging, but I don't feel this article is ready for FA status at this time. A sampling of concerns:

I appreciate that the article's been copyedited, but prose is still highly problematic. You've got a typo in a section heading, several instances of USEng spelling, some very short and choppy sentences and paragraphs, and a general lack of clarity and flow in the text
Manual of style issues: "%" should be spelled out in article text, wikilinking problems (both overlinking and underlinking: link potentially unfamiliar terms on first appearance, don't link very common terms at all), etc
Multiple inconsistencies in reference formatting, missing information (for example, page numbers for non-weblinked newspapers and magazines). Nikkimaria (talk) 14:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any more? Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 14:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given certain time constraints, it should take about 4 to 5 days for me to re-vamp the article. Please refrain from voting till then. Any comments, however, will be greatly appreciated. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 16:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are more. As indicated above, this is a sampling of concerns - I didn't think it necessary to list every single problem with the article to oppose its promotion. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I too am sorry to be discouraging, but I have to agree with Nikkimaria that the article isn't yet ready. I'll give a few more examples, and I stress that these are merely examples:

"In 1526 Portuguese ships arrived in Mangalore, and local converts slowly increased." The converts increased?
"They observed their traditional Hindu customs ...". Who is "they" referring to here? The last subject of the preceding sentence is the "native Bednore rulers of South Canara", but I suspect this is really referring to the Goan Catholics agriculturists. Why "agriculturists" instead of "farmers" anyway?
"Most migrants were people from the lower economic strata who had been left out of government and economic jobs". Rather ungainly. Better to say something like "who had been excluded from government and economic jobs". What is an "economic job" anyway?
... their lands had been confiscated due to heavy taxation under the Portuguese in Goa". I don't understand this at all. Skipping over the use of "due to", in what way did heavy taxation lead to land being confiscated?
"... he was entrusted the spiritual nourishment of Christian community in Mangalore and other parts of India by Pope John XXII." seems to be at least one word missing there.
Is the article using American or British English? I see "honoured", but "colored".

Malleus Fatuorum 20:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - the prose needs work. I found way too many repetitions of "Mangalorean Catholic" all over the prose, which is repetitious and interrupts the flow of the prose. It's also way over linked - there is no need to link things like "spices" "pineapple", "Roman Catholic", too many links to Portugese, and similar.

What makes http://www.daijiworld.com/chan/exclusive_arch.asp?ex_id=955 a reliable source?

Daijiworld Media is a private media company with a daily viewer-ship of around 100,000 visitors from around 180 countries, roughly 60% of whom are Non-resident Indian (NRI) Mangaloreans.

Likewise http://www.ethnologue.com/home.asp?

William Bright, editor of Language: Journal of the Linguistic Society of America in 1986, wrote that "Ethnologue is indispensable for any reference shelf on the languages of the world."

Likewise http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=32675&n_tit=News+headlines?
Current ref 186 lacks publisher and last accessdate at the very least.
This source Journey through… is actually not published in 1988, it was originally published in 1807, and should reflect that.
Same with the Bowring source - originally published in 1893.
The Cardona - this appears to be an anthology - is Cardona the author of all that you've cited there?
The two Heras sources - they are apparently two volumes of the same multi-volume work, why are they cited completely differently?
The Jordanes source - originally published in 1863.
The Natan work is self published, is he an expert? Does he fulfill WP:SPS?

I don't think so. It was added by another user. I'll try to find out an alternative source.

Why are we citing a historian who died in 1928 for his History of the Popes, for "Ludwig von Pastor author of The History of the Popes, from the Close of the Middle Ages. Volume 39 emphasizes saying "countless" Mangalorean Catholics were hanged, including women with their children clinging around their necks. Others were trampled or dragged by elephants." Surely we can cite something more recent for this information, or something on the actual subject of the history of India? And that sentence is badly constructed also.

I have so far been unable to find an alternative source. I plan on purchasing new books to be used as reference for the related Seringapatam Captivity article.

The two Silva refs are apparently to the same multi-volume work, why are they cited utterly differently?
Prose - at random and these are just examples. I found the prose very unengaging and difficult to read, as it was often made up of many short choppy sentences and paragraphs
- "Mangalorean Catholics have retained many Indian customs and traditions; these are especially visible during the celebration of a marriage.[187] Their culture is more traditional and Indian." these two thoughts don't mesh well together - what are these traditions that the Catholic traditions are "more traditional and Indian" than?
- "The German missionary Plebot set up the first tile factory at Mangalore in 1860. It was called the Basel Mission tile factory.[142] Mangalorean Catholics learnt the technique of preparing Mangalore tiles.[29] The Albuquerque tile factory, the first Indian Mangalore tile factory, was started in South Canara by Pascal Albuquerque, a Mangalorean Catholic, at Pane Mangalore in 1868. Since then, Mangalorean Catholics have been actively involved in manufacturing the tiles. The Alvares tile factory was established in Mangalore by Simon Alvares, a Mangalorean Catholic from Bombay, in 1878." Repeat "Mangaloran Catholic" much there? And too many short choppy sentences which makes the prose very hard to read.
- "The Mangalorean Catholics came to Bombay out of economic necessity.[126] The first permanent settlement of Mangalorean Catholics in Bombay was recorded in the 1890s.[127] The first Mangalorean Catholic settlement in Madras was recorded in the 1940s.[128] Joachim Alva, a Mangalorean Catholic politician, actively participated in uniting the Mangalorean Catholic community against the British during the Indian Independence Movement." Again with the repetition of MC, as well as stilted phrasing.
- "Their captivity at Seringapatam (1784–1799), where many died, were killed, or were forcibly converted to Islam, led to the formation of a separate and common Mangalorean Catholic cultural identity among members of the group, who hitherto had considered themselves an extension of the larger Goan Catholic community." the various bits about "died, killed…" interrupt the flow of the prose and make it difficult to connect the first part of the sentence with the last part.
Another concern is that you often attribute too much. It's very common to see constructions like "Historian Alan Machado Prabhu, author of Sarasvati's Children: A History of the Mangalorean Christians (1999), estimates that almost 95% of Mangalorean Catholics have Goan origins." That bit of the title and the date of publication only impede the reader. Unless the work is so notable it has its own article, you don't need to mention it in the attribution.

My opinion is that the work needed (given the large size of the article) would be too much for the normal review period. It's an impressive work, but needs some prose polishing and editing for conciseness as well as making sure you're only presenting the important facts. The prose feels like a jumble of information put together, and doesn't engage the reader. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. I don't think that it would be possible for me to make the necessary changes within the normal review period. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me!} 11:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.