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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manon Melis/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 13 October 2021 [1].

Manon Melis

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Nominator(s): Edwininlondon (talk) 15:00, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I nominate another football article. For nine years Manon Melis was the all-time top scorer for her country's national women's football team. She retired from professional football just before her national team won their first and only tournament in 2017. Thanks to Sportsfan77777 (GA), ChrisTheDude (PR), and Twofingered Typist (copy-edit) the article is in a much better state, but I'm sure there is still room for improvement. I welcome your feedback. Thanks for taking a look. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:00, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:24, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nikkimaria! Edwininlondon (talk) 08:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • I PRed this, so doubt I will pick up much, but here goes.......
  • "suggested the talented young Melis to play with" =>"suggested that the talented young Melis play with"
  • "A girl playing football was still unusual at the time" - is this really true? You already said that she had previously played for the girls' team, so there was clearly a structure for girls' football, which would mean that a girl playing football was hardly unusual. Do you mean that a girl playing for a boys' team was unusual?
I guess it's all relative. Say a club with 15 boys' teams would just about be able to form 1 girls' team. Or in another way (pardon my guessing numbers here for mid 1990s): 75 out of 100 boys played at a club versus 5 out of a 100 girls. Which is low compared to current levels, but high compared to 1970s and 1980s ... The source says unusual. Other sources also mention unusual. Would you like to modify it with "somewhat"? Edwininlondon (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. In that case maybe say "Girls playing football was still somewhat unusual at the time"..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Further comments
  • "Former Brazilian football player Pelé handed out the award to Marta" - seems a bit irrelevant to Melis's career
I removed Pele. It now reads: "but she did not win; Marta did"
  • "ahead of the 2012 season start in April" => "ahead of the 2012 season starting in April"
  • "joining Mittag on attack" => "joining Mittag in attack"
  • "they booked a 3–2 win" => "they achieved a 3–2 win"
  • First sentence of the Kopparbergs section has both a comma and a full stop at the end
  • "Having represented the Netherlands on youth teams" => "Having represented the Netherlands at youth levels"
  • "Japan soon scored on the other side of the pitch" => "Japan soon scored at the other end of the pitch"
  • "While it was unusual for her as a girl in the 1990s to play football" - see above
I inserted somewhat
  • "Having built a hierarchy of nine women teams" => "Having built a hierarchy of nine women's teams"
  • "Melis jumps...." caption is not a complete sentence so shouldn't have a full stop
Is it not a full sentence? It's got a verb, a subject. What is missing?
I think I have addressed all your other points, just the caption is unresolved I think. Thanks for taking the effort to review it again, after your thorough peer review. Edwininlondon (talk) 18:24, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: - humblest apologies, I completely forgot about this review. I'll take another look later..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your edits, suggestions and improvements. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:31, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sportsfan77777

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Noting I reviewed this article for GA status. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • You can put "at Feyenoord" in the first sentence
  • she (add "also") won the Swedish Supercup (to link to the previous sentence)
  • She Melis was the Damallsvenskan top scorer (too many "she"s in a row)
  • , alongside <<<=== you don't need the comma
  • goal scoring <<<=== pretty sure just one word
  • In the final group game against Denmark, she scored a crucial goal, sending them through to the quarter-finals, where she was one of the Dutch players who scored in the penalty shoot-out against France. ====>>> In the tournament, she scored a crucial goal in the final group game against Denmark to send her team into the knockout stage and later converted a penalty in the shootout against France to help them win their quarter-final. (The other structure doesn't work because both things didn't happen in the game against Denmark.)
  • Melis has been the manager of women's football development at Feyenoord since 2017, with the goal of creating a first team that competes in the Dutch Eredivisie and is supported by youth and reserve teams. <<<=== Rephrase to indicate that she has done this.
I did, but have a look.
Early life
  • She Melis was a ball girl (first mention in a paragraph should never be "she")
2007
  • Melis moved abroad to play professionally for LdB FC Malmö in the Swedish league Damallsvenskan, <<<=== you don't need the first "league" (there is another "league" after the comma)
  • of media coverage ===>>> just "media coverage" OR "in terms of media coverage"
  • In her first home game, ===>>> In Melis's first home game, (Melis isn't in the previous sentence)
  • but she did not win; Marta did ===>>> but she lost to Marta
  • Linköping eliminated Malmö in the third round ===>>> Malmö were also eliminated by Linköping in the third round
  • She scored hat-tricks in key matches ===>>> Melis had hat-tricks in two key matches (in particular, changing "scored" to "had" just to mix it up with the following sentences)
  • In the domestic cup she scored twice ===>>> In the domestic cup she had two goals
  • Örebro, the eventual winners, eliminated Malmö in the quarter-finals. ===>>> Malmö were eliminated in the quarter-finals by Örebro, the eventual winners.
  • she won the awards ===>>> Melis won the awards
  • cross bar ===>>> crossbar
  • Melis helped Malmö ===>>> This Supercup win was followed up by Melis helping Malmö
  • Linköping defeated her team 2–1 ===>>> Linköping came from behind to win 2–1
  • comfortable position ===>>> a comfortable position
Sky Blue
  • a fast forward player (add "like Melis")
2012
  • did not see success in the domestic cup again ===>>> still did not see success in the domestic cup
  • Malmö came from behind ===>>> Nonetheless, Malmö came from behind
2014
  • seen (add "several") key players
  • (add "including") two goals on assists from Göteborg stalwart
  • she scored four goals ===>>> Melis scored four goals
  • (11) ===>>> with 11 (get rid of the parentheses)
2016
  • She wore the number 14 jersey. <<<=== This doesn't fit here. Maybe tack it on to the end of the first sentence, or make it the second sentence.
Done. See if ok.
Early
  • middle of the UEFA Women's Euro 2005 qualifying
  • double round-robin tournament (add "with four groups")
  • second goal, with the game ending in a 3–0 win ===>>> second goal in a 3–0 win
  • The Dutch failed to qualify for Euro 2005; Denmark and Norway advanced. ===>>> The Dutch finished qualifying in fourth out of five teams as Denmark and Norway were the only teams to qualify in their group.
  • the Dutch (add "again") did not qualify
  • would not participate in the 2008 Olympics (add "either")
  • Almost three years after her debut, in her 34th cap, she scored her third goal for her country, in a 2–0 home win over Italy.[110][113] <<<=== This is just a friendly right? If so, I don't think you need to mention this.
The point is that for someone who ended up being the alltime goalscorer it is surprising to have a 3 year gap and 30 games of no goals. I changed it to Not until almost three years after her debut, in her 34th cap, ... and to avoid the Not until repetition I changed that Not until a few sentences earlier into Only in her 16th cap. Better?
  • of their play-off tie and qualified ===>>> of their play-off tie to qualify
  • Looking back at the end of her career ===>>> Looking back at her career after it ended
  • mostly thanks to strong defending ===>>> mostly due to strong defending
  • with Melis taking the third ===>>> including the third taken by Melis
  • put the Dutch into the semi-finals. In the semi-finals England awaited. ===>>> put the Dutch into the semi-finals against England.
  • but goalkeeper Rachel Brown intercepted ===>>> but it was intercepted by goalkeeper Rachel Brown
Middle
  • Eight goals (add "in total") by Melis
  • cross bar <<<=== one word
Final
  • sending the Netherlands through.[140] Italy awaited In the play-off final. ===>>> sending the Netherlands through to a play-off final against Italy.
  • , Melis's teammate at Göteborg ===>>> , Melis's teammate at Göteborg,
  • after a pass from Martens ===>>> off a pass from Martens
  • As of December 2020 <<<=== update to today
I looked for a reliable source a few weeks ago, just before the Olympics, and failed to find a recent one. I'll have another search and will update if possible.
Manager
  • In 2013 ===>>> A few years earlier in 2013
  • her wish Feyenoord had a professional team, so she could play for them ===>>> her wish for Feyenoord to have a professional team that so she could play for them
Playing
  • she is a centre forward, and he was a winger ===>>> she is a centre forward while he was a winger
  • goal scoring <<<=== one word (appears twice)
General points
  • As indicated a bunch of times above, just noting you can't use "she" for "Melis" if Melis wasn't mentioned in the previous sentence.
Thanks ever so much for taking the time again to go through the text with such attention. I have addressed all points, and made a few comments as above. Edwininlondon (talk) 16:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Amakuru

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I will be reviewing this FAC in the next day or two. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:02, 21 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Amakuru I'm inline behind you.... The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:04, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've been doing this a lot of late, haven't I... too much going on in the summer holidays. I'll really try to get back to this later today.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you taking the time during your busy summer holidays. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • The lead gives her full name as "Gabriëlla Maria "Manon" Melis". This info should also be here, and cited.
  • Done
  • "the talented young Melis" - this feels a bit like editorialising. If sources say she was talented, then attribute it with a quote.
  • Done: I removed talented
  • "she later said that their teammates often ridiculed her direct opponents for having to compete against a girl" - this doesn't seem very clearly written. The "their teammates" is introduced before we know who's under discussion. I assume it means that whoever was assigned to mark her was ridiculed by the rest of that person's team? Anyway, please try to word more clearly.
  • Done: your assumption is correct.
  • "In 2012, Melis observed" - I think it might be better to say "Melis later said"; the "in 2012" part gives the impression it's part of the same timeline. And "observed" is mentioned as a word to avoid at MOS:SAID.
  • Done
  • "Melis was a ball girl once at a national team match played at Sparta Rotterdam's venue Het Kasteel. From early on she has been a Feyenoord fan" - the language seems slightly unpolished here. Suggest something like "During her childhood, Melis appeared as a ball girl during a national team match at the Sparta Stadion Het Kasteel. She supported Feyenoord, one of her father's clubs, from an early age and has said that Giovanni van Bronckhorst and Henrik Larsson were her favourite players during her youth."
  • Done
RVVH
  • "the senior level" - is there a link for this? It might not be entirely clear what this means.
  • "the club's only women's team" - this sounds like you're talking about a single women's team, while the club has several men's teams. Is that what you meant to say, or did you mean a "women-only team"? Either way, it needs a bit of clarity.
  • Both actually. But to avoid confusion I removed only. Too much detail. Since we have just mentioned mixed, women's team is clear I think.
  • "Teammate Leonne Stentler, who had joined her on the boys' teams and who ended up gaining 16 caps for the Dutch national team" - two things: (1) was it a boys' team, or was it a mixed team? (2) the prose could do with some improvement. Maybe something like "She was joined by Leonne Stentler, who had also played for RVVH's mixed youth teams. Stentler, who went on to earn 16 caps for the Dutch national team, later said that the drop in level had negatively affected their motivation".
  • 1) it was mixed. I changed it. 2) ok, done
  • "Other internationals at the club were Jeanine van Dalen and Sandra Muller" - were these internationals at the time, or later?
  • At the time
  • "The women had to make their own way" - informal language, maybe something like "The women had to arrange their own travel to away games..."
  • Done
  • "RVVH did not win the league during Melis's tenure" - this sounds a little incomplete; were they a team which usually challenged for winning the league? What sort of positions did they finish in during Meelis's tenure, and how dit those compare with other seasons when she wasn't there?
  • There is nothing I can find. All there seems to be from this time is a list of league winnrs for each year, no standings. This was not professional sport and had no mainstream media coverage.
  • Also, is there no information on how many games she played and how many goals?
  • Sadly not.
Be Quick '28
  • "Her dream was to focus fully on football" - sounds a bit POV. Phrase in a neutral encyclopedic tone.
  • Rephrased: She wished to focus fully on football,
  • "this offer meant that she would also have to find other work" - why was that? If she remained in the Netherlands would she not have to find other work?
  • She wanted to become fully professional, not semi-professional, which is what this essentially was. Might as well stay an amateur in the Netherlands then until a better offer comes around, I guess was her thinking.
  • "Melis only played for Be Quick for a few months" - it feels like a bit more detail is needed here. How many games did she play, how many goals etc and was it a successful time
  • I wish I could find more detail, but sadly there are no records other than her moving to the club and leaving the club. Still amateur football.
LdB FC Malmo
  • "one of the strongest leagues in the world according to FIFA" → "described by FIFA as one of the world's strongest leagues"
  • Done
  • "and ended up the club's top scorer" → "and finished as the club's top scorer"
  • Done
  • "but her tally was dwarfed" - tweak language for encyclopaedic tone
  • Done: but her tally was surpassed by
  • "Umeå repeated as champions" - the term "repeating" sounds odd in British English, I think this is more of an Americanism. Maybe something like "Umeå retained the championship"
  • Done
  • "during which Brazilian forward Marta was shown a red card" - don't really need this detail, as it has nothing to do with Melis
  • Done. removed.
  • Suggested condensing of wording: "Melis shared the league's top-scorer spot that season with Umeå's Marta, each of them scoring 23 times, although 6 of Marta's goals were scored on the last day of the season in an 11–1 win over already-relegated Bälinge".
  • Done
  • The paragraph starting "in the 2009 season" could be combined with the previous one as it looks rather short.
  • I would prefer to keep each paragraph dedicated to one season. Should I try to find something of interest to add to the 2009 season paragraph?
  • "recorded a notable stretch" - notable according to whom? Better just to state that it happened, without saying it was notable.
  • Done. Removed.
  • "Melis scoring three goals for a hat-trick in one of them" - just saying she scored a hat-trick would be sufficient, as this is fairly usual terminology and there's a link for readers who don't know. Might be nice to say which of the three games she scored the hat-trick in, and against which opponents.
  • In my previous football FAC a reviewer urged me to add the definition of a hat-trick in line. I merely copied that here. I am happy to take it away. Done. I added the opponent.
  • "Melis finally won the league" - not sure we need "finally" here, it sounds slightly POV
  • Removed.
  • "Melis had hat-tricks in two key matches" - who defined these matches as "key"?
  • I did. Is it too editorial? Goteborg finished second and Umeå won the league multiple times in recent years, so I thought it was reasonably safe to say key. Better to say this perhaps: "Melis had hat-tricks in two matches against rival title candidates:"
  • "She scored the opening goal in a 2–1 win" - perhaps "She also scored..."
  • Done.
  • "in a notable 11–1 win over Asarum" - avoid saying "notable"
  • Done.
  • "In their description of the history of Damallsvenskan, the Swedish Football Association wrote that the 2010 season saw some stars leaving the league and, consequently, audience numbers declined, prompting a decrease in sponsor funds needed to attract new stars" - not sure what this has to do with Melis
  • I think it is good to give some wider perspective on the women's game at the time. Ultimately she leaves the Swedish league for the US, with more stars, higher audience numbers, more sponsor money.
  • "Melis again finished as Damallsvenskan's top scorer" - we said "again" in the previous paragraph, so sounds slightly repetitive here.
  • Done.
  • "For five straight seasons she was Malmö's top scorer" → "she has been Malmö's top scorer for five straight seasons"
  • Done.
  • "Melis played her first ever Champions League game on 29 September 2011 in Italy against Tavagnacco" - what was the score?
  • 2-1 defeat. Added.

That's it for the first tranche. I'll continued with Sky Blue FC once these are addressed...  — Amakuru (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. Look forward to more. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:43, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sky Blue FC
  • All looks good.
Linköpings FC
  • "also a fast player" - her being a fast player sounds a little like an opinion, rather than something objective; might be better to note and attribute the source which said they were both fast (apparently "fleet-footed" is the term they used!)
  • I removed it
  • "The club did not start the season well, but she kept her scoring ability" - would be good to give a more information about this. Like how many goals, and how many defeats the team suffered etc.
  • added "managing just two wins from the first eight games," and "scored four times in a 4–1 win over Piteå"
  • "Melis still did not see success in the domestic cup" - maybe rephrase to something like "Melis's lack of success in the domestic cup continued, as Linköping lost..."
  • Done
  • "at the venue she had played in for five years" - slightly awkward wording. Probably enough just to say it was an away game, or give the name of the stadium or something (I notice you name it several times further down).
  • How about this: "In June she faced her old club Malmö at the Malmö IP stadium, where she had played for five years."
  • Ref 66 isn't loading properly for me, even the archived version. I can't see any information on the page. Am I missing something?
  • There seems to be a website glitch. Looks like the data from the database is not loading. I have alerted the website owners of the issue by email.
  • "mostly because of a hat-trick by German international Anja Mittag" → "with German international Anja Mittag scoring a hat-trick".
  • Done
Malmo part 2
  • "on an assist from Sara Björk Gunnarsdóttir" - not sure if we really need this detail, given that Gunnarsdottir isn't mentioned anywhere else.
  • What if I add a bit about Sara Björk, such as ", who later went on to win the UEFA Women's Champions League in 2018 with Lyon"? Extra things like that convey that Melis was playing with top quality players. Alternatively, I just remove the bit about the assist.
  • "in front of over 2,500 spectators" - slightly prefer "more than" rather than "over"
  • Done
  • "seven points ahead of number two, Tyresö" - I think "second-placed" would sound better than "number two"
  • Done
  • "two goals fewer than her teammate Mittag and 12 fewer than the league's top scorer Press" - per MOS:NUM it should be either 2 and 12, or two and twelve, as the numbers are comparable.
  • Done
  • Also add a comma before Press
  • Done
Kopparbergs/Gotebord
  • "The Dutchwomen's first competitive match together" - I assume this means Martens, Geurts and Melis. I would actually give the names for clarity.
  • Done
  • "Melis was offered and accepted a lucrative contract from Göteborg, despite being happy at Malmö" - lucrative sounds slightly a matter of opinion here. If possible, give the exact financial advantages. Also, it might be better to order it differently. Start with her being happy at Malmo, then say that Goteborg came in with an offer, and that she decided to accept it for financial reasons or whatever.
  • Done
  • "including two goals on assists from Göteborg stalwart" → probably "long-term Göteborg player" rather than "stalwart"
  • Done
  • "Melis and Martens linking up for many years for the Netherlands national team" → "Melis and Martens' many years of experience together on the Netherlands national team"
  • Done
  • "He had noticed in training how Martens would hold up the ball for an extra second so Melis could make her runs" - might be better as a quote from the coach, as the holding up for an extra second is an opinion rather than a fact.
  • I removed it. Not too sure about translating foreign language quotes, so just removing it is best.
  • "yielded a disappointing result" - this sounds like it's Wikipedia's opinion that the result was disappointing. Reword for NPOV.
  • Done
  • "which had merged with" - maybe "who had merged"? I think we usually treat teams like they're a group of people rather than a single object.
  • Done
  • "In a notable match in July 2014" - notable according to whom? And what was the eventual score?
  • Done
  • "because of a 3–2 defeat" → "as a result of a 3–2 defeat"
  • Done
  • "in second place on the top scorers list, far behind Mittag, who scored 23 goals versus her 16" → "in second place on the top scorers list with 16 goals, substantially behind Mittag, who scored 23"
  • Done
  • "Melis's final season in Sweden, the 2015 Damallsvenskan, was a disappointment" - again, a disappointment for her, but not necessarily for Wikipedia.
  • Done
  • "Göteborg only ranked sixth on the table. Her old club Rosengård won the title again." - combine into one sentence, e.g. "Göteborg achieved only a sixth-place finish, as her former club Rosengård won the title again"
  • Done
Seattle Reign FC
  • Say which country this is in in the opening sentence. It might seem obvious, but best to state it explicitly, e.g. "in the American National Women's Soccer League"
  • Done
  • "after landing wrongly on the pitch" - odd wording
  • Done
  • "She came back strong from injury" - should be "strongly" I think
  • Done
  • "in 16 appearances she scored seven times ... Watt topped the league's scorer's list with 11 goals" - either 7/11 or seven/eleven.
  • Done
Early years
Euro 2009
  • "Having represented the Netherlands at youth levels" - it would be good to have some brief detail on this, like when she was called up, which teams etc (the infobox says u-17 and u-19 teams).
  • Done
  • "Against Belgium" - might be good to say "Her debut was against Belgium" or similar, just so we connect it with the date, which was mentioned two sentences ago.
  • Done
  • "playing only three minutes" -> "for the last three minutes" (assuming that's what it was)
  • Done
  • "for the first time in her fourth cap ... Only in her 16th cap" - these are close enough together that it's worth matching, 4th/16th or fourth/sixteenth. Probably go for 4th/16th, since we later also see 34th cap.
  • Done
  • "for a major tournament" - I think you could remove this
  • Done
  • The word "tie" should be linked to the article Two-legged tie, although I've realised this isn't the first occurrence, that would be up in the Malmo section "Melis scored once in the away leg of the tie", so please link it theere.
  • Done
  • "the technically very capable French" - sounds like a matter of opinion; make it a quote, or reword
  • Done
  • "In the semi-finals England awaited" - unnecessary, you just said the semi-final was against England. It's also slightly journalese.
  • Done
  • "In another tense game" - again, "tense" is an opinion
  • Done
  • "a Jill Scott header gave England a place in the final" - give the final score.
  • Done
  • "Prior to the Euro 2013 in Sweden" - we don't usually have "the" before "Euro 2013"
  • Done
  • "Fortunately for the Dutch" - should probably just drop this; "fortunately" implies they had some luck with other results or something, but scoring the equaliser was actually in their own hands.
  • Done
Managerial career
  • "given that Miedema has been a lifelong Feyenoord fan" - change to "had" I think, for past tense

That's about it I think. I think the overall picture looks OK to me, so I'll hand over to TRM once these issues are responded to. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 15:25, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM

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Just checking in to confirm I'll take a look at this once Amakuru has done his review. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 14:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, TRM. Looking forward to it. Edwininlondon (talk) 16:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TRM, I'm happy for you to make direct edits in the article, should you prefer to do that. Edwininlondon (talk) 07:24, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right. Not sure what I was thinking.
  • The opening para of the lead seems to be a lead for a lead. Why not write the lead chronologically?
  • I see. I think that's because I tried too hard to get her all-time goal scoring record in early on. I moved that down now. Is that sufficient or do you feel the first paragraph should read more like "In 2008 she was top-scorer. In 2010 and in 2011 she won the league and was top scorer. In 2012 ..." Would that be better than grouping the league wins, then grouping the top scorer records?
  • "At the Euro 2013 in" we don't normally put "the" in front of Euro XXXX competitions.
  • Done
  • "and aims to create a first team that competes in the Dutch Eredivisie and is supported by youth and reserve teams" this feels a bit advertising. This is probably the "aim" of all coaches everywhere, bar those who just buy successful teams. Better to re-phrase to suggest her coaching method is to encourage youth development. And that's probably enough.
  • She is not the coach but in charge of creating the infrastructure (teams, coaches, support staff). I think what is unusual here is that they first created the youth teams, then the reserves and only just now field a first team in the Eredivisie. Is perhaps the word "competes" wrong? Should that be "takes part"?
  • "She confirmed in March 2021 that Feyenoord Women would field a team in the Eredivisie for the first time in the 2021–22 season" this reads a bit weird to people who just assume that Feyenoord would have had a female team there in the first place.
  • I feel this is connected to your previous point. Should perhaps the paragraph start with something like "In 2017 Melis was appointed as manager of women's football development by Feyenoord, who, unlike rivals Ajax and PSV, lacked a women's team. In the following years she set up youth and reserve teams, and in the 2021–22 season Feyenoord fielded a first team in the Eredivisie for the first time."
  • "professional football player" footballer.
  • Done
  • "the Dutch Eredivisie" is "Dutch" needed here?
  • I would think it helps. I doubt the name is well known enough
  • "her direct opponents" what does "direct" bring to this?
  • I was under the assumption that opponent could be any member of the other team, and direct opponent just the one central defender covering her. Is that not correct?
  • boys' -> boy's?
  • I think boys' team is correct. In line with women's team
  • "ball girl" is there a link for this?
  • Yes. Done.
  • If Sandra Muller was international, why not linked?
  • Done
  • "RVVH did not win the league during Melis's tenure.[14]" well, ok, but most club's don't win the league during the tenure of most of their players. Is there any information on how the side actually performed?
  • I'm afraid it's the only thing that is available about the side during her time. These were amateurs, without any coverage in the media. Do you think it is better to remove "RVVH did not win the league during Melis's tenure.[14]" altogether?
  • "this offer meant that she would also have to find other work" why?
  • The offer was not enough to live on. How shall I make this more clear? Something along the lines of "In 2006, Melis received an offer to play in the German Frauen-Bundesliga, for Duisburg, but declined. The proposed salary was not sufficient to live on, and finding additional part-time work seemed daunting to her because she was unable to speak German fluently."
  • "described by FIFA as one of the world's strongest leagues" FIFA described it as the "world’s most competitive league" and they did that in 2012, not in 2007 when Melis joined.
  • Removed. I did a quick search to see if there was any authority talking about the league in 2007 but could not find any.
  • "In her first season she scored ten goals, and" how many games? Difficult to contextualise whether this is spectacular or mediocre.
  • I will find a source for that. The two sources for this sentence only mention 10 goals.
  • "with Umeå.[25] Umeå won " repetitive.
  • I changed it into "In her second season at Malmö, Melis scored the first equalising goal in a 2–2 draw with Umeå, who ended up winning the league again, their fourth consecutive title." Is that acceptable?
  • "Malmö came third again but fewer points" reword this, "Malmö finished the season third, but having closed the gap..." or something. Right now, it doesn't read grammatically correctly.
  • Done
  • "Melis shared the league's top-scorer spot that season" -> Melis was the league's joint-top-scorer that season
  • Done
  • Spot checking the odd ref, as I go, and "In the 2009 season Melis played 20 games, scoring 10 goals. She shared the club's top scorer spot with Frida Nordin.[31] " neither the live nor the archived ref seems to verify this. I think we may need to do another sweep on sources.
  • There is a problem with the website of the Swedish Football Association. As I mentioned above I have emailed them to alert them of the problem with their database. I failed to notice this on July 21 when I archived the last batch of pages from their site. The pages do load, but the data does not show. Fortunately I archived some pages from their site earlier, for instance ref 61 on April 29, see [[2]]. I've started a list of alternative sources to use, should the Swedish Football Association not fix their website in the next few days.
  • "Malmö were also eliminated by Linköping in the third round of Svenska Cupen Damer, the domestic cup.[35]" what does this have to do with Melis?
  • Removed
  • " club Melis won the league" well, no, the club won the league while Melis was there, needs rephrasing.
  • I see, yes of course. I changed it to: "In Melis's fourth season at Malmö the club won the league"
  • "She surpassed her 2008 goal tally of 23 by scoring 25 goals in 22 games and was the 2010 Damallsvenskan top scorer.[37] Malmö finished 11 points ahead of the second-place team Göteborg.[36]" is all this stuff before the Champ League qualification? I'm struggling with the chronology.
  • I struggled with this for quite some time as well. But yes, it's all in chronological order. It turns out that the Swedish leagues then played from spring to fall, unlike many other European leagues who play from fall to spring. So Malmo winning the league in October 2010 meant they qualified for the Champions League starting in September 2011.
  • "over previous rivals Umeå" what's a "previous" rival????
  • Removed
  • "Melis had hat-tricks" had? She scored them.
  • Done
  • "two key matches" what made them "key"? According to whom?
  • Removed
  • "over champions Linköping" reigning or future?
  • Defending. Added.
  • "another big victory over Umeå" just say the score and leave it to the reader to decide if it was a "big victory".
  • Done
  • "she had two goals " she scored twice perhaps?
  • Done
  • "In their description of the history of Damallsvenskan...." again, it's not completely clear what this has to do with Melis directly?
  • I think it is good to give some wider perspective on the women's game at the time. Ultimately she leaves the Swedish league for the US, with more stars, higher audience numbers, more sponsor money. But happy to remove if you think that is too far off topic.
  • "was followed up by Melis helping Malmö successfully" no need for "up".
  • Done
  • And maybe "being part of" rather than "helping.." with a suitable reword?
  • Done
  • "in the race with" this is tabloid journalism.
  • I replaced it with "keeping Malmö close to league leaders"
  • "played both crucial last games" odd, POV. perhaps "played in the last two games of the season".
  • Done
  • "She has been Malmö's top scorer for five straight seasons" odd tense. Do you mean, at that point she had been her team's top scorer for five solid years?
  • Sorry, past tense in English always gets to me. I don't know if she was at any time the club's all-time goal scorer, but she was for five seasons in a row the person who scored the most goals for her club in a season. So would it be best to say "For the fifth season in a row she had been her club's top scorer."?
  • Done
  • "twice to secure a 5–0 " to help secure.
  • Done
  • "next round. The next opponent was" ->" next round, where they faced"
  • Done
  • "leg of the tie, helping" see above. Explain the concept of home/away first time.
  • Done
  • "and a comfortable position" nope, that's POV.
  • Done
  • "This home game, on 10 November 2011, was her last game with the club" repetition of "game", and maybe something like "The second leg, at home on 10 November 2011, was Melis's last game for ...."
  • Done

This takes me to the "2011–2012: Sky Blue FC" section. Feels like there's plenty of tightening up of prose to do here, and some possible sourcing issues. Once you're through these, I'll take a look at the next few sections. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:20, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you so much. I believe I have addressed most of it, but please do check my changes, as I mentoned before, English is not my native tongue. The sourcing issue with the Swedish FA website still stands, hopefully they fix soon, otherwise it is plan B for me. Looking forward to your improvements for the next sections. Edwininlondon (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

  • "the jersey number 9" ->"the number 9 jersey"
  • Done
  • "from her jersey number 14 at" repetitive, and shouldn't that information go in the Malmo section anyway?
  • Moved up
  • "managing just two wins from the first" -> "winning two of the first..."
  • Done
  • "but she kept her scoring ability" unnecessary.
  • Removed
  • ""scored four times in a 4–1 win" perhaps "scored all four of her side's goals in their 4–1 victory..."?
  • Done
  • "Melis was successful in an 11–0 win over Djurgården, scoring four times" again, tighten this, something like. "She also scored four times in Linköpings' 11–0 defeat of ..."?
  • Done
  • "where she had played for five years" we don't need that here.
  • Done
  • "In the sixth minute she scored the game's opening goal, assisted by a pass from Louise Schillgard. Nonetheless, Malmö came from behind and defeated Melis and her new team 2–1." significant detail on a single, inconsequential match in her career, at most you could say she scored in a 2–1 defeat, but we don't need all the rest.
  • Changed. I had it in there because although inconsequential in terms of league wins, it is personal to play against one's old club. But I removed all the detail, it was too much, you're right.
  • Same comment applies to the second match against Malmo too.
  • Done
  • "Tyresö, who acquired Marta, took the title in a dramatic last match of the season" what relevance does this have in this bio?
  • Removed
  • Again, in the Malmo section, we seem a little obsessed with performances against her former clubs, and not just on how she herself got on throughout the course of the season.
  • Removed details not about her, including first Linkoping match in which she didn't even score.

That takes me to "2014–2015: Kopparbergs/Göteborg FC". The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 11:55, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2014–2015: Kopparbergs/Göteborg FC onwards

  • "Melis was happy playing at Malmö again..." doesn't feel encyclopedic in tone.
  • Changed into "Although Melis had wanted to stay at Malmö, when Göteborg"
  • "invest in strong players to contend" no need for strong.
  • Done
  • "contend for" I would go for "compete for".
  • Done
  • Have we linked the Dutch women's team in the main body yet? I'm not sure...
  • Done
  • "season well with a 5–0 " remove well. Need to stop adding "opinions"
  • Done
  • "Martens'" -> "Martens's"
  • Done
  • "the Netherlands national team" netherlands or Dutch? To some of our non-expert readers, this change in nomenclature is confusing.
  • If I look at how the BBC mixes the two terms happily, I think this is fine (see [[3]]). At least I'm not using the Holland term :) Do you want it to be explained? That seems overkillto me, it is linked after all.
  • "the Malmö IP stadium yielded a disappointing result for her. Malmö" again, this fixation with playing previous teams is not quite what I'd expect from a bio on Wikipedia. And "yielded a disappointing result" is far too clunky.
  • Removed. I moved the fact that Malmö changed its name to Rosengård to the next sentence.
  • "won 5–0.[77] In the 4–0 win over Jitex BK" temporal context, i.e. was this the next match or next month/year??
  • Not an issue anymore now that the 5-0 is gone.
  • "This meant that Rosengård and Örebro qualified for the 2015 Champions League, while Göteborg did not.[80]" another sentence which isn't directly related to this bio. If that had an impact on Melis, frame it that way.
  • Removed.
  • "substantially behind Mittag" no need for substantially, let the readers work that out for themselves.
  • Done
  • "was a disappointment for her." did she say that explicitly? If not, don't attribute that emotion to her.
  • Removed.
  • "came back strong" not a tabloid.
  • Removed
  • "top scorers list"->"top scorers' list"
  • Done
  • "yet far behind leader" just state facts, not "far behind".
  • Done
  • "After a frustrating season" was it her who said that? Attribute, say (for instance) "After a season which she considered to be frustrating, ...."
  • Rephrased to more neutral wording, since it is not clear if the reporter said so or she did herself. So simply "At the end of the season .."

That's up to "2016: Seattle Reign FC" The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:00, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Next set

  • (previous section: "included Dutch internationals " overlinked).
  • Done
  • (previous section: "with Rosengård (Malmö's" ovelrinked)
  • Done
  • "jersey.[83][84] In an interview she said it was a dream come true to play in the US.[85] " merge, jersey,[83][84] stating that it was a dream come true to play in the US.[85]"
  • Done
  • "Other stars playing" not encyclopedic tone.
  • Rephrased
  • " as Kim Little" perhaps indicate her nationality.
  • Done
  • "travel with a hoodie" travel wearing a...
  • Done
  • "season got off to a bad start with" season started with a defeat... Don't put POV on it.
  • Rephrased
  • "Melis's old club" former club.
  • Done
  • "over 5,500 people. She scored" -> "over 5,500 people and scored"
  • Done
  • "Houston's Kealia Watt and Western New York's Lynn Williams topped the league's..." not really directly relevant.
  • Removed
  • "Early years: Euro 2009" not keen on this "Early years/Middle years/Later years" bylines. And each section isn't exclusively about the Euros/WCs either, why not covering things like the Cyprus Cup for example?
  • Done: I used years instead. I have also added some Cyprus Cup coverage
  • "Netherlands at the youth levels, making her debut in the Netherlands" repetitive. And where she made her debut isn't particularly interesting unless you're going to tell us against whom and how she got on.
  • Actually that was meant to refer to the name of the team: "the Netherlands Under 17 team". I made that more clear by dropping the Netherlands and capitalizing the team names
  • "on as a substitute," link.
  • Done
  • "qualify in their" qualify from their...
  • Done
  • "seemed challenging" to whom? POV, not encyclopedic tone.
  • Rephrased
  • "hosts, Finland" link the team.
  • Done
  • "against Denmark.[114] Despite Denmark" repetitive.
  • Rephrased
  • "the third taken by Melis" comma after third or else this could be interpreted that it was Melis' third penalty that went in.
  • Done
  • "failed to convert" repetitive, maybe "failed to score".
  • Done
  • "Finally, Anouk Hoogendijk scored" and then switch this to "converted her penalty...
  • Done
  • Any reactions to how Melis played up to the semi-final in Euro 2009, or just game facts?
  • I'm afraid I have not been able to find anything other than one match report calling her fast, which isn't very useful. I guess it is a sign of the times: if things were reported at all if was basically just the facts, not much of an analysis
  • "the 2011 FIFA Women's World Cup, Melis" overlinked.
  • Done
  • "Norway proved too strong, despite Melis scoring against them once." this is a bit vague, could we just say what happened in the game, how it ended and that Melis scored?
  • Rephrased
  • I have added some Cyprus Cup goals and a tally when she moved into 2nd place on the all-time list
  • "Dutch fighting for " competing.
  • Done
  • "The Swedish media featured her to introduce the Dutch team to the Swedish public. To the Dutch media she explained how Sweden was more advanced in terms of media coverage of women's football" this feels a little clunky and awkward, what does the first sentence mean? And isn't the second sentence really quite patronising?
  • Rephrased
  • "Germany, Iceland and" Iceland overlinked.
  • Done
  • "Dagný Brynjarsdóttir scored Iceland's..." this seems out of chronological order, should be before you declared the result and that they didn't qualify.
  • Rephrased

That's me down to World Cup 2015 section. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 19:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

World Cup 2015...

  • "the Dutch beat Albania 4–0; Melis scored a hat-trick" maybe less clunky to say "Melis scored a hat-trick in a 4–0 victory over Albania"?
  • Done
  • "A loss at home against Norway made direct qualification challenging" this is OR, just stick to the facts, i.e. what would be needed for them to qualify after defeat against Norway?
  • Done
  • "in all the other matches" remaining, not other. And probably "remaining group matches".
  • Done
  • "Their first opponents were Scotland" instead of "first", it'd be better to say something like "They opponents in the second round" or whatever the first knockout round was referred to.
  • Done
  • Done
  • "Little, who later would" you should reinforce that Little scored for Scotland, not the Netherlands.
  • Done
  • "clean sheet" link to football glossary.
  • Done
  • We still seem to be covering the Netherlands games where Melis's performance isn't even mentioned, there's no point in that in this bio.
  • Since Melis said this playoff was one of the highlights of her career it seems odd to leave out a description of the final Italy game. I kept it as brief as possible. I wish I could find Melis detail for these 2 matches but Miedema scored all the goals and takes all the coverage.
  • "made necessary saves" what does "necessary" add here?
  • Removed
  • "Japan soon scored at the other end of the pitch. A quick equaliser did not materialise" merge, and tone, e.g. "Soon after, Japan scored and after the Netherlands failed to equalise..."
  • Done
  • "They came one goal short of qualification" how does that work?
  • Added more Melis detail and clarified.
  • "As of December 2020," it's nearly October 2021, any update?
  • Unfortunately not. Nobody seems to publish a list, so all we can do is wait until some journalist from a reliable source happens to mention it after checking Opta. Would you prefer I remove it?
  • "A few years earlier in 2013" A few years earlier is unnecessary.
  • Done
  • "on home soil" journalese
  • Rephrased
  • (earlier: link assist on its first usage).
  • Done
  • I see you use {{double dagger}} in a note, but not actually in the table?
  • Dagger removed.
  • Tables in the "Career statistics" section need to comply with MOS:DTT, row and col scopes for example.
  • Done

That's taken me down to the references. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 08:32, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, it's been a lengthy review: suggest (like your previous FAC, the super-high-scoring game) that next FAC gets a thorough copyedit from both a native English non-football fan and a native English football fan. Almost all of my issues would probably have been taken care of before the nomination got started. But you've worked very hard and patiently so, my main concerns have been addressed, and it's always a good thing to see more women's articles at this quality, so happy to support. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your hard work! It's been good to be able to learn from you. I'll take your advice to heart for the next FAC. Much appreciated. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:17, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

edit

Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed

  • Some of the infobox details, such as height, don't appear to be sourced anywhere
  • The Eurosport profile page, ref#2, has the height, date of birth, place of birth, position
  • What makes worldfootball.net a high-quality reliable source? vrouwenvoetbalnederland.nl?
  • worldfootball.net is run by data company Heim Spiel, which also runs data websites for other sports and sells sports data commercially. According to [[4]].
  • Have not yet been able to find anything. They show a list of logos as their clients, including Die Zeit and ZDF, but I have not yet been able to verify that these outlet indeed buy their data from Heim:Spiel. Unsurprisingly, since very few businesses publicly display their suppliers. I will keep looking. Edwininlondon (talk) 14:38, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • vrouwenvoetbalnederland.nl was set up in partnership with the Dutch football association. It had an editorial team, its own reporters and photographers. It ceased to exist in 2018. According to [[5]]
  • Eurosport should not be italicized. Ditto Vice Media, check for others
I changed work= into publisher= for anything that is not a newspaper, magazine, or journal
  • FN10 is missing language. Ditto FN12, check for others
Done
  • Don't repeat cited sources in External links
I removed them all.
  • FN58 is incomplete. Ditto FN56, check for others
Done
  • FN56 is a dead link
Fixed
  • FNs53 and 78 cite the same site but are formatted differently - should be consistent. Check throughout.
Done
  • FN90 is missing author, FN59 is missing agency - please check throughout
Done
  • FNs 95 and 97 are to the same site but credit it differently - why?
Incompetence. Fixed it.
  • BBC Sport is sometimes italicized, sometimes not - be consistent
Done

Significant formatting cleanup needed here. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:12, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for taking the effort using your eagle eye to spot these issues. I believe I have addressed them all. Edwininlondon (talk) 15:07, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since I am unable to find out anything about the quality of the data Heim:Spiel provides to its clients and uses on worldfootball.net, I have removed it and replaced it with a new source, the website from Swedish TV channel TV4. I am not having much luck with finding out if the vrouwenvoetbalnederland.nl site had an editorial policy. All we know for sure is that it was backed by the official Dutch football authorities and that it had fulltime staff members. It has all the signs it had a policy but I have no proof. Would it be worth trying to locate and contact the founders and ask if such a policy existed, or does that not count as proof? Edwininlondon (talk) 10:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No replies so far. At least the emails did not bounce. But the site looks abandoned, it seems it is in dormant mode. In the meantime, looking on the archived pages on archive.org I tried to locate a hint of editorial policy. Only things I could find were on the terms & conditions page where they stated that the content is created with the highest possible care, and on the Colofon page [[7]] it showed there were 5 full-time employees. It stated (using Google Translate): "The website has been in existence since August 2002. The site contains a wide selection of news about women's football. In addition, the site, with the help of reporters, brings as much "latest news" as possible, compiles dossiers on topics that stay current for longer." Edwininlondon (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Nikki and Edwin, sorry if this was resolved and I missed it but we really should wrap this one up one way or the other. If we're satisfied the source makes it, let's pls state that the source review passes, if not then I guess we need to replace the source, or remove it and the statements it cited. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:35, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate that. I wish I knew what to do to get the policy, but have run out of ideas. It's unfortunately the only source for many of these claims, otherwise I would replace this source of course. (Not too big a surprise actually that they are the only one: they were set up to provide the coverage they observed was lacking). I have set an alert for when the editor pops up in the news again, so I can try and approach them again.) Edwininlondon (talk) 07:01, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Z1720

edit

Let's get this out of FAC! Non-expert prose review.

  • "which she won three times with her club" Can this be more specific? Does the club win anything when they win the league? Does winning involve finishing at the top of the table?
  • Yes, clubs that win the league normally get a trofee. And yes, winning involves finishing top. But I don't think that should be explained here in the lead, I think we have to assume some basic knowledge and provide links to the reader to find out more. Damallsvenskan was that only link, which may be a bit indirect, so I linked league to Sports league.
  • " In 2016, close to the end of her playing career, she moved to the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL)" I don't think "close to the end of her playing career" is necessary. Instead, I wish there was a sentence about when she announced her retirement.
  • Done
  • "playing for Seattle Reign alongside World Cup winners Megan Rapinoe and Hope Solo." why are these players important to mention in the lede?
  • Removed
  • "and later converted a penalty in the shoot-out" I do not know what this means. Can this be simplified?
  • Not without adding many words, which would give disproportional space to the event. So I simply removed it.
  • " given name Manon," What is meant by this? Who gave this name to her? Is this a cultural thing that needs further explanation?
  • I have linked Given name and added a footnote. It is not unusual in the Netherlands to have an official name and an unofficial name, which the parents would declare at birth. A bit like Catherine being official and Kate being used, but with greater deviation possible and the parents saying so, rather than the community organically.
  • Any info on who her mother is?
  • Not that I can find unfortunately.
  • "follow in his footsteps." should be reworded per MOS:IDIOM
  • Done
  • "that the young Melis play with and against boys," Delete "the young" as we already know what age she is from the previous sentence, and so is redundant.
  • Done
  • "In her last ever home game" delete ever as redundant
  • Done
  • "Although Melis had wanted to stay at Malmö," Delete had
  • Done
  • "Göteborg achieved only a sixth-place finish," Delete only as unnecessary
  • Done
  • "Other Seattle players included 2011 FIFA World Cup winners Nahomi Kawasumi and Rumi Utsugi, 2015 World Cup winners Megan Rapinoe and Hope Solo, as well as Scottish international Kim Little." I don't think this is necessary in Melis's article, and belongs instead in the Seattle Reign FC article.
  • Removed
  • "playing only for the last three minutes." Delete only as unnecessary, the reader can draw the conclusion that this was a short time
  • Done
  • "Melis almost scored with a curling drive but missed the net." What is a curling drive? Is there a link for this?
  • No link, so I just made it more generic, using "shot"
  • "since only the best performing teams at the World Cup would go to the games in London." -> "since only the best performing teams at the World Cup would qualify." As we can't assume that the reader will know that the 2012 Olympics took place in London.
  • Done
  • " in third place in the group. But victories" -> " in third place in the group, but victories"
  • Done
  • " She was tasked with building a girls' football academy for all age groups." Tasked by who?
  • Added "by Feyenoord"

Those are my thoughts. Please ping when the above have been responded to. Z1720 (talk) 23:38, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720:Thanks very much for taking the time to go through it all. Much appreciated. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:27, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My comments have been addressed, I support. Z1720 (talk) 18:52, 11 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your efforts, Z1720. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:47, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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