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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Marjorie Cameron/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:49, 30 August 2017 [1].

Marjorie Cameron

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Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This GA-rated article is about an American artist, actor, and occultist who was active in and around California in the period of the Beat Generation and the subsequent 60s counterculture. Cameron was a follower of the British occultist Aleister Crowley, the wife of the rocket scientist Jack Parsons, and a good friend of underground film-maker Kenneth Anger. She was involved in an array of sex magic rituals, experimented widely with hallucinogenic drugs, and made a wide range of apocalyptic predictions involving UFOs, comets, and Mexico conquering the US. The article is not particularly long but is (IMO) about a very interesting character, so if it tickles your fancy, please do give it a read and offer some comments. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods, and those that are should

Thanks Nikkimaria! Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cameron briefly traveled to New York City to see a friend, there discovering that she was pregnant, and again decided to terminate the pregnancy - could write "have a termination" two avoid two pregnant/cies in one sentence. Also, change resulting in the termination of their friendship - as repetitive..."resulting in the demise/end of their friendship"
I have changed "termination of their friendship" into "end of their friendship". Saying "have a termination" may cause slight confusion for some readers as they may not be clear exactly what she was terminating; instead, I have gone with "decided to have an abortion". The use of that latter term makes it much clearer that it was the pregnancy that was being terminated while also ridding us of the overuse of the actual term "pregnancy". Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd link typhoid mary and emphysema.
Done and done. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cameron's reputation as an artist grew posthumously -> why not just write, "Cameron's reputation as an artist grew after her death" ?
I personally think "posthumously" works a little more smoothly (one word rather than three), but if you think that "after her death" will be more widely understood then I can certainly make the change, no problem. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just think using shorter plainer words (as long as no meaning is lost) is always good. You and I know what "posthumously" means but maybe some folks don't. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:12, 29 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for he comment, Cas Liber - if there is anything else please don't hesitate to let me know. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:05, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hmlarson

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I've made some copyedits throughout and added alt text to some of the images. Feel free to modify any changes I have made. I think the article could use a little more copyediting for clarity, but is very close. Hmlarson (talk) 02:49, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

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This is an interesting article about an unusual person. I have a fair number of suggestions about prose and style and a few questions or suggestions about other things. I made several minor copyediting changes as I went; please revert any you think are misguided.
General
  • The existing alt text for the images would not help someone depending on a screen reader that translates the text into sound. The image in the infobox has no alt text, and the other alts simply clone the caption text. Better would be something descriptive like "Half-length photo of a frowning man of about 30 with dark wavy hair, a moustache, and a neatly trimmed goatee" for the Jack Parsons' image. Could you spruce these up for readers who cannot see the images?
I've added alt-text to all of the images (the previous alt-text captions were just copies of the information included in the image descriptions - very odd). Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox
  • You could safely drop "U.S." from the "Died" entry.
Lede
  • ¶2 "Elemental woman" - Lowercase "elemental"?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Early life (1922–1945)
  • ¶1 "She was their first child, followed by three further siblings..." – Delete "further" since "followed by" already says it?
  • ¶1 "and civic lessons" – I believe that should be civics lessons.
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "Relating that one of her childhood friends had committed suicide, she characterized herself as a rebellious child..." – These two ideas, suicide and rebellion" don't seem logically connected. Did Cameron blame herself for her friend's suicide? Even if so, how was that connected to Cameron's rebellious nature?
I've looked at the source and changed the prose accordingly: "Relating that one of her childhood friends had committed suicide and that she too had contemplated it, she characterized herself as a rebellious child,". Do you think that this now works smoothly or would you rather see the sentence cut into two? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "She enjoyed going to the cinema, and had sexual relationships with various men." – This implies that she had sex with them at the cinema. Is that what the source supports? Or does this simply mean that movies and sex were her two favorite things?
It just refers to the fact that these were activities that she took part in at the time. Do you think that there is a different wording that would make this meaning clearer? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe just splitting them with a terminal period to make clear that they are not necessarily simultaneous. "She enjoyed going to the cinema. Another pursuit involved sex with a variety of men." Or something like that. Finetooth (talk) 16:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "After becoming pregnant, her mother performed... " – Her mother didn't become pregnant. Suggestion: recast as "After Cameron became pregnant, her mother performed...".
Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Another good idea. Added. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "experienced romantic relations" – Is this a euphemism for "had sex with"? If so, I'd use the more direct phrase.
I've trimmed this bit out. The information given in the book is very vague so I think it best to just be rid of this wording. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:06, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶2 "For reasons unknown to her, she received an honorable discharge from the military in 1945, traveling to Pasadena, California, where her family had relocated, with both her father and brothers securing work there at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)." – Too many clauses. Split"? Maybe "For reasons unknown to her, she received an honorable discharge from the military in 1945. To join her family, she traveled to Pasadena, California, where her father and brothers had found work at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)."
Good idea. I've made the split.
Jack Parsons: 1946–1952
  • ¶1 "had just finished a series of rituals utilizing... " – "Using" rather than "utilizing" on grounds that the former is more plain.
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "Lowercase "elemental" and put "elemental woman" in quotes to match the way you handle this in the lede?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:46, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 "spent the next two weeks in Parsons' bedroom together" – Not literally, I assume. They probably left the room for breakfast, for example. Maybe "much of the next two weeks"?
  • ¶2 "It nevertheless became apparent... " – No need for "nevertheless".
Removed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "Parsons decided to sell 1003..." – I think "The Parsonage" would be more clear than "1003".
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "which was then demolished" – Why was it demolished? Is the fact relevant?
I think that it was just demolished for new development, but I do not think that it is particularly relevant to this article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it worth retaining the mention of demolition (after all, there may be readers who decide to go and look for The Parsonage). However, I will add that it was demolished for redevelopment (which I checked was correct with the RS). Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶4 "with Cameron attending the jazz clubs of Central Avenue..." – Replace the "with plus -ing" construction with "and Cameron attended..."?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶4 "with a number being purchased by her friend... " – Replace "with plus -ing" construction with "including some purchased by her friend..."?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:08, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Children, Kenneth Anger, and Curtis Harrington: 1952–1968
  • ¶1 "In the hope of communicating with Parsons' spirit, Cameron began performing blood rituals while in Mexico in which she cut her own wrist." – Slightly smoother might be " While in Mexico, in the hope of communicating with Parsons' spirit, Cameron began performing blood rituals in which she cut her own wrist."
Changed to "While in Mexico, Cameron began performing blood rituals in the hope of communicating with Parsons' spirit; during these, she cut her own wrists.". Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶1 Is anything more known about the suicide attempt? What did she try? How did it not succeed?
Unfortunately not. Consulting the reliable source cited, all it states us that "Cameron's heartache reached critical mass and she made another unsuccessful attempt at suicide in a derelict house in Altadena. Once she recovered...". I don't think that there's much more that we can include here, Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "with she and her followers being rescued by a flying saucer that would take them to Mars" – Replace "with plus -ing" with "and that a flying saucer would rescue her and her followers and take them to Mars."?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "on the mind-expanding usages of hallucinogens" – Maybe "uses" which is more direct than "usages"?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶3 "was in correspondence with... " – Tighten by two words to "corresponded with"?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶4 "At the advice of..." – "On the advice of..."?
Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶7 "Having based herself in the Los Angeles area of Venice,[68] it was here that an exhibit of her artwork was held at a local arts shop in August 1961." – Is this Venice different from Venice, California? If not, maybe "After Cameron moved to Venice, California, a local arts shop exhibited her work there in 1961."?
"Venice, California" is a redirect that takes us to Venice, Los Angeles, so I think it best to stick with "Los Angeles" over "California". However, I liked the rest of the suggested wording, which I have implemented. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶7 "He then launched a poster campaign against his former friend, The Cameron File, in which he labelled Cameron "Typhoid Mary of the Occult World"." – Since his friend isn't The Cameron File, I'd recast this. Perhaps "He then launched a poster campaign, The Cameron File, against his former friend, labelling her "Typhoid Mary of the Occult World".
That works. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Later life: 1969–1995
  • ¶2 "The claims regarding a prehistoric matriarchal society devoted to a Goddess which were made in the writings of archaeologist Marija Gimbutas also interested and influenced her." – Flip to active voice? Suggestion: "She was also influenced by claims made in the writings of archaeologist Marija Gimbutas about a prehistoric matriarchal society devoted to a goddess."
Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:18, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments, Finetooth. I've made most of the changes but for the remaining ones I want to consult the reliable sources first before making certain alterations. Hopefully I'll be able to do it tomorrow. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:39, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JM

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Pleased to see this here. I suspect the scrutiny over sourcing has only served to improve the article.

  • "The Parsonage" or "the Parsonage"?
  • "with Hubbard and his girlfriend Sara Northrup" Ambiguous; whose girlfriend?
  • "It became apparent that Hubbard was a confidence trickster, who tried to flee with Parsons' money, resulting in the end of their friendship." I note, given Hubbard's history, that this is potentially a highly contentious claim. Would it be worth saying "x saw Hubbard as a confidence trickster" or something?
  • While I appreciate that Hubbard and his followers may take issue with this assessment, it is something that is backed in the Reliable Sources. Does anyone else have a view on this issue? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of Sara with her legs severed below the knee" Northrup?
  • " began work at the Bermite Powder Company, constructing explosives for the film industry.[26] They began" Repetition
  • "coming to understand the purpose of his Babalon Working" Slightly too sympathetic to these occult practices, I'd say
  • "By the mid-1980s, Cameron was focusing to a greater extent on her family life, particularly in looking after her grandchildren, who were known to go joyriding in her jeep." It seems a little odd to first mention the grandchildren here.
  • "the Neo-shamanic practices" Why the capital?
  • At what point in her life did she become open to Thelema? In the section on Parsons, we have "Although she still did not accept Thelema,", but by the later life section we have "she retained faith in the Thelemic ideas of Crowley".
  • "According to The Huffington Post" Why not credit author of the piece?
  • "a retrospective of her word" Odd phrasing
Ah, a spelling error. "Word" should be "work". Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very readable and engaging. If I was being very critical, I'd say that I wanted to hear a little more about her artwork. Please double-check my edits. Josh Milburn (talk) 23:16, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that more information on her artwork would improve the article, but thus far these discussions just do not seem to be provided in the reliable sources. Hopefully further work on the subject will be forthcoming in future. Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:48, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, many thanks for taking the time to read through this one Josh. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:00, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I had a Google around for potential scholarly sources on Cameron's painting. I didn't find anything, but I did come across Contextual Practice, by Stephen Freman. From page 108: "Berman's friend, the artist and hermeticist Cameron (Marjorie Cameron Parsons Kimmel, 1922-1995), took peyote for the first time in 1954 after hearing Huxley speak. Her peyote session resulted in the "allegorical" drawing of sex between two keeling nudes that was responsible for Berman's arrest and the closing of his Ferrus Gallery exhibition." Sounds like there may be an interesting story there? (The story is even how the author opens the book; p. 1 recounts it.) Josh Milburn (talk) 17:20, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

J Milburn: I've looked at the book. Unfortunately it does not go into any real depth on her work or life, but I've used it and the Kansa biography to add a few extra sentences on Semina and the exhibition which got shut down because of Cameron's Peyote Vision. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:46, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, looks good! Josh Milburn (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be a pain, but... I know there's already been an image review, but I note that the trailer for Night Tide pretty clearly does not contain a copyright notice, so it will be PD in the United States. The film itself is apparently PD; my only guess is that this is because copyright was not renewed, but I don't know how to go about checking that. This means that we can't really justify a non-free image for the lead; we should use a screen capture instead. I can't reliably identify Cameron, but I think there are at least two close-ups of her face in the trailer (one in a veil, one with maniacal laughter), and likely many more in the full film if its PD status can be confirmed. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've uploaded File:Marjorie Cameron in Night Tide.jpg and File:Marjorie Cameron in Night Tide (cropped).jpg, in case that's a shot you'd be happy to use. Josh Milburn (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... the quality of the image is pretty low. Most of the face is shrouded in dark and it is difficult to identify her. To be honest, I do not think that it would be of the appropriate quality for the visual identification of the individual, as is required for the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's the possibility of another screen capture. I strongly suspect that this image is in the public domain, as I suspect that it was published as a publicity photo without a copyright notice. It'd be hard to prove, though. By the way, there are some valuable-looking sources listed here. In particular, this article by Peter Lunenfeld was in Artforum; perhaps a nice way to expand on coverage of Cameron's work in the article. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:15, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've added several sentences from Lunenfeld, so thank you for bringing that source to my attention, Josh. I've also added citations from a number of the other sources listed in the Cameron-Parsons website that you link to. I'm still having some trouble with finding an image from Night Tide that can be used although I will keep looking. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks- I think those additions are great, and I think the article is very well-written and well-referenced. My one remaining worry is the use of the non-free image. I'm not going to oppose on that basis, but I am inclined to think that public domain images exist (though digging them up may be tricky), and so they should be used. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Here's an alternative: I would not be opposed to the lead image being a non-free image if it is Cameron's self-portrait. I have seen this done to good effect on other articles about artists, as it means that the lead serves to identify both the person and their artwork. Given that you are already using Cameron's self-portrait, this could be a viable option. A screenshot (such as the one I have already uploaded) could then be used in the article body for the purposes of visual interest. Josh Milburn (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That could certainly work if her portraits were highly realistic, but in a case like this, where her works are a little bit more 'abstract' (if that's the right word), I'm not sure if it would. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Wehwalt

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All sources seem of encyclopedic quality and are consistently cited. I note the following:

  • I would add state names to the city where the publisher is located. You are inconsistent in this regard.
  • You are not consistent in whether you have the dashes between the groups of numbers in the ISBN.
  • Considerable linking the names of notable periodicals in the refs.

That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Wehwalt. I have standardised the use of state names (by removing rather than adding them, if that is okay), and also by ensuring that the ISBNs are all formatted in the same way (with the dashes). Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:42, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth

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  • I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows a few spots where paraphrasing could be improved - I'll note that most of the issues are for titles/quotes, but there are a few spots that aren't.
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:05, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

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I've copyedited a couple of minor points; please feel free to revert if you don't like the changes.

  • Between 1946 and 1952 I think a couple more fixed dates would help the reader keep track of events, if the sources can provide the dates. For example, "then moved to the coach house": I can't tell to within two or three years when this is.
  • "On his return to the U.S. from Europe, Anger moved in with Cameron for a time,[72] although in early 1964 the duo moved into a flat on Silverlake Boulevard until he departed for New York City": why "although"?
  • "closely impacted" - I think this is a bit vague. Perhaps "strongly affected" or "had a long-lasting impact on" or something like that?

-- That's everything I can see. The article is in very good shape and I expect to support when the above minor points are fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: - many thanks for your comments. I have responded to all three, but if there is anything else then please do let me know. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:25, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The fixes above look good to me. An interesting article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: J Milburn (unless I've missed anything this time!), how is this looking to you now? Sarastro1 (talk) 21:48, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would support but for the image issue, but I do not want to oppose over that, so I would rather remain "neutral". But for that one question mark, I think the article is excellent. Josh Milburn (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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