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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mars Society/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 23 May 2024 [1].

Mars Society

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Nominator(s): CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Mars Society is a nonprofit organization that advocates for human Mars exploration and colonization. There is very little available source that is said about the Mars Society, yet early in its history it played a crucial part in Elon Musk's creation of SpaceX. I've spent more than two years trying to improve the article and I'm hoping for the best for the third FAC. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've also contacted some Mars Society members to take a look at this article. No responses yet, but hopefully there will be a few by the end of the week. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:01, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't know what more to add to this article. Looks like this is comprehensive enough for now. Also, I just managed to borrow the book and is skimming it for facts. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note, this is when I contacted individual members of the Mars Society. Now that I finally found the official communication forum for the TMS, I emailed to the New Mars Forum to get more feedback. Hopefully they will provide insights that are still missing from the article. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 01:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: is this article still missing an image and source review? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I have placed a request at WP:FACSR. FrB.TG (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment by TompaDompa

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I almost certainly will not do a full review, but I would like to suggest using Robert Markley's Dying Planet: Mars in Science and the Imagination (2005) as a source. There is a fair amount of material about the Mars Society therein; the index points to pp. 23, 350–353, and 385, but there's more—I would suggest at minimum checking out the "Mars Direct and the High Frontier" portion (pp. 346–354) of chapter 8 ("Mars at the Turn of a New Century"). It could for instance be used to verify James Cameron as a member. TompaDompa (talk) 21:54, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TompaDompa Thank you so much for the source! It took me ages to make sure that every single source has been extensively checked, and you proved me wrong. Always nice to find more sources for the article, will get the book and write the article. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa Reading it... CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TompaDompa, I just finished adding everything I can think off to the article with that source. Wow, what an oversight. It confirmed some of my suspicions about the society earlier, but it's nice to confirm it with a reliable source. If you know any other sources that mentions the Mars Society, please tell me as soon as possible! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's it, I'm afraid. I'm only aware of Markley's book because I used it heavily for Mars in fiction. TompaDompa (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose support from PCN02WPS

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  • Minor, but maybe reword "Many Mars Society members and former members" in the lead to "Many current and former Mars Society members" to avoid repetition?
  • The "Philosophy and propositions" section mentions a founding conference in the present tense initially and then switches to past tense
  • "2003 that Mars Society is a fundamentally" → when referred to like this elsewhere in the article, the phrasing "the Mars Society" is used
  • "They published their plan to NASA" → recommend linking NASA on first mention
    • Secondary point: The wording that they published a paper to the organization sounds a little strange, maybe "for NASA"? I'm not really sure what the best fix would be here.
  • "the same year as the sixth and last Case for Mars" → I think you can drop "sixth and" since you mention that the sixth was the final one earlier
  • "near Hanksville, Utah" → comma after "Utah" per MOS:GEOCOMMA
  • The crew would stay for eighty days" → reads better to me as "The crew stayed for eighty days
  • "totaling 236 crews,with each crew" → need a space
  • The second-to-last paragraph in "Earlier activities" seems to be missing a few articles here and there; for example, I think it reads better with wording like "later renamed to the Mars Gravity Biosattelite" and "students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology"
  • MIT doesn't need to be linked again in the last paragraph
  • I would also consider giving the "MIT" abbreviation at first mention and using it instead of the long form name at subsequent mentions as it is far more digestible
  • "had dwarfed the one of Mars Society" → "had dwarfed that of Mars Society" - also might need a "the" in front of "Mars Society"
  • remove links from FMARS and MDRS; they're given already above
  • Ditto for Devon Island and Hanksville, Utah
  • "As of 2017, it is back" → consider "it was back" since you're mentioning an update given seven years ago with no update since then

That's all I've got as far as prose goes, nice work! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 05:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your excellent review! I've implemented all of your changes to the article. I still haven't being able to loan "Dying Planet: Mars in Science and the Imagination" yet but I hope I will be able to loan it soon. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I went back and changed a couple words to fix tenses and such myself so I didn't have to hold this up just for that. The article is very well-written and I'm happy to support on prose quality. (As a note, if you've got a bit of time I have an FAC of my own that could use some eyes) PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for the support! It's my 4th year on Wikipedia and my 5th FAC, and this is the first ever FAC support that I've received. Thank you so much for believing in this FAC. I really do appreciate that. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Draken Bowser

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Neat and to the point, probably doesn't need to be much longer than this until we get boots on the ground. I'm having a little trouble with the "current" in the "current projects" heading, in part because we're unaware of whether two of these projects are even ongoing as of 2017 and august 2022.

  • "..and Peter Smith" If he is notable as a member we should be able to verify his membership with a secondary source.
  • "president is Robert Zubrin., and nNotable members" English loves commas, couldn't we still do a full stop here?
  • "The testimony seems to not have influenced the committee" Reads a bit like a stylistic understatement, can we be blunt here?
  • Could we do the inverse: "where the island is not uninhabited and lacks vegetation."
  • Google hits for the exact phrasing "student university competitions" do not look promising, rephrase?
  • "The MarsVR Project aims.."
  • Source spot check (random.org) 13, 14, 16, 24 and 28 — 24: I can't seem to find the date on page 4, or any other page. It's in source 17 though. Also, please add the rp-template to source 17.

Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In order:
  • Cannot verify whether Peter Smith was a board member or not, even on his personal website. If he had ever been a Mars Society member, he was most likely a member in the society for an insignificant amount of time. Removed.
  • I was stupid. Implemented.
  • Rewrote to "The committee was indifferent to the testimony"
  • Made sense. Implemented.
  • Removed "student"
  • To be explicit, added another ref after "In December 2001,"
Thank you so much for the source check! Sorry if I haven't been about to respond to you immediately. Courtesy ping: Draken Bowser. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:44, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No probs. I'm gonna hold here for a while pending further comments/polishing and return later for another read through. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:29, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Draken Bowser Would you mind reviewing the article again for any further omissions? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't get to a printer today, unfortunately, will get back to you no later than Wednesday. Draken Bowser (talk) 15:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Draken Bowser Wow, you're very dedicated to copyedit the article. Thank you so much for your time and effort! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly wanted to see how far my holistic impression had improved since the first look.

Final notes:

  • "This goal can be seen in.." prefer "These goals were set out.."
  • "..to espouse his own views on how human Mars mission should be done." Add "-s" or "a".
  • "Mars will be a way to give birth to an ideal society." Prefer "would".
  • "..and no further development of TEMPO3 has been done since the initial proposal." Do our sources confirm this, or should we go with "reported"?

That's all, and Support. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thank you so much for your support and your comprehensive review. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 00:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

  • "advocates for human Mars exploration and colonization". This may be different in US English, but to my ear it is clunky. Perhaps 'advocates for human exploration and colonization of Mars'?
  • "to make human mission to Mars". Not grammatical. Either 'to make human missions to Mars' or 'to make a human mission to Mars'.
  • "... which aims to make human mission to Mars as lightweight and feasible as possible. The Mars Society aims to generate ..." Is it possible to avoid "aims" twice in such clos proximity?
  • "the Mars Society has been active with organizing events and research activities." Suggest 'the Mars Society has organizied events and supported research activities.'
  • "aim to replicate a true Mars mission for research." Suggest 'aim to stimulate a Mars mission.'
  • "Crew members in the stations must perform ..." Delete "must".
  • "do research assignments" → 'carry out research assignments'.
  • "and researching the effects on Martian crews via Mars analog habitats." Researching the effects of what?
  • Reference: books should either all have publisher locations or none should.
  • "and notable members and former members" → 'and notable current and former members'.
  • "chapters in Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe, etc". Etc doesn't really work. Is it possible to give a full list? Or end with 'and x other countries'?
  • "The Mars Society's founding conference" - give the year.
  • Link Mars Direct.
  • "a panel made by the Obama administration" → 'a panel set up by the Obama administration'.
  • "During a testimony". Delete "a".
  • $20 bn is not "one-twentieth the cost" of $250–500 bn. Perhaps 'less than one-twentieth the cost'?
  • "conference had happened" → 'conference took place'.
  • "as a spiritual successor". Delete "spiritual".
  • "Some of the invited were from the Mars Underground and those who had written to Zubrin" → 'Some of those invited were from the Mars Underground or had had written to Zubrin ...'.
  • Section heading: "Earlier activities". You shouldn't use "earlier" without saying what it is earlier than what. Perhaps 'Historical projects' or similar.
  • "on Devon Island." Where is that?
  • "The construction cost for FMARS is jointly shared by the Mars Society and the Haughton–Mars Project team. Part of the funding also came from commercial sponsorship such as the Discovery Channel." The second sentence contradicts the first.
  • "FMARS was first occupied in July and August 2000". It can't be first occupied on two dates.
  • "In mid-2001, the Mars Society received a US$5,000 check from Elon Musk for a fundraiser event." That is not what the source says. Possibly you mean 'at a fundraiser event'?
  • "Musk joined the Mars Society's board of directors". I cannot find this on the pages cited. It is discouraging that the one cite I have checked seems to have two errors.
  • "invited aerospace engineers whom he had met beforehand at Mars Society-sponsored trips". Delete "beforehand".
  • "Since then, Musk occasionally kept contact with the Mars Society". This needs rewording. Maybe 'Since then, Musk has occasionally worked with the Mars Society' or similar?
  • "as evident by his presentation". Either 'as is evident in his presentation' or 'as is evidenced by his presentation'.
  • "The first four-month-long mock mission was done in 2007" → 'The first four-month-long mock mission took place in 2007'.
  • "Shorter missions were done in 2009 and 2013" → 'Shorter missions were carried out in 2009 and 2013'.
  • What is a "field season"?
  • "The money that had been donated by Elon Musk". Delete "that had been".
  • "MIT": In the last paragraph of Earlier activities you use MIT twice, then give the name in full. Is there a reason for this?
  • What is a "student university"?
  • Is "MarsVR Project" a computer program? If so, say so at first mention.

That's it for my first run through. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:53, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, thank you so much for your kind comments! I've implemented most of your suggestions to the article. As for "Musk joined the Mars Society's board of directors", it can be verified with this quote, around page 100-110: "Musk took to the Mars Society right away and joined its board of directors." I need to find the page number for the print version though... CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On my epub, the print edition page number for that quote is 100. Unless I own a hardcopy of the book, I really don't know what's wrong with the citation here. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have sorted it. If you think I have done anything wrong, could you flag it up here. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources: Bishop, 2011 needs a page range.
  • "Field season" is not the same as "fiscal year".

Looking good. Just the two minor points above. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild Done. As a side note, all three citations to Bishop, 2011 have attached {{rp}} CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bishop: I know, doesn't matter. If a source is a part of a larger work (eg a chapter of a book or an article in a journal) its page range needs to be given along with the other details on how to find it. Note the tweak I gave. Nice work. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Graham Beards

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The article has improved by leaps and bounds since its first FAC coming up to two years ago. I think it satisfies the FA criteria. I made a couple of tiny edits rather than list them here. Well done. Graham Beards (talk) 14:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Graham Beards, would you mind taking a look at the article again? I've made some addition to the article from the source that TompaDompa has suggested. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes: "degree" should be "degrees" and you should say if they are university or college degrees. Here " with certain influences from science fiction", you don't need "certain". Here " The first convention also saw the signing of the Founding Declaration of the Mars Society" the "also" is redundant. Graham Beards (talk) 15:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your feedback! I've made my first copyedit pass through the article and fixed the issues that you've addressed. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 15:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image review

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Image placement and ALT text seems fine for me. Regarding File:Elon Musk at MSC 2006.jpg, I kinda wonder why the Flickr images are so lacking in EXIF details. I am not sure that the licence statement on File:FMARS Station Construction 2 2000-07-21.JPG means that it can be re-used by other. Source review wise reviewing this version. Looks like we are working mostly with major news sources and specialized sources here. Spot-check:

  • 3 The fee thing is on the other page. OK otherwise, although you may want to alphabetize the countries list.
  • 4 Can I have copies of the pages in question?
  • 8 OK
  • 10 OK although I wonder if this is somewhat detailed information for a Wikipedia article.
  • 13 OK
  • 14 Mostly OK but where is it said that it was a "successor"'
  • 15 OK
  • 17 OK
  • 18 OK
  • 19 OK
  • 20 Where is "temporary foundation for his publicity projects,"?
  • 22 OK
  • 24 OK
  • 25 OK
  • 27 Can I have copies of the pages in question?
  • 28 OK, but it's interpreting the reasons why these sites were chosen.
  • 29 OK
  • 33 OK, some paraphrasing of "propulsion module, heat shield and landing engines" may be warranted.
  • 35 Need a copy of this webpage.
  • 36 Where is "the training part has an attached cost for the public"?

Not source or image related, but the article is conspicuously lacking in any outside review or commentary on the organization. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your review. About the images, I will email to the Mars Society to confirm that these images are indeed made by them. As for the reviews that you're talking about, sources available for TMS are very scant, even more so for external commentaries. I tried my best to layout critical commentary of the organization at Mars_Society#Philosophy_and_propositions.
Addressing source concerns... CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:08, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As for the IRS filing information, I think it's appropriate to put it into the article. The organization is really small by many standards and there's no official member count for the TMS. So the next best thing is to assess the revenue and spending of the organization. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 14:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus Ok, this is frustrating... I haven't received an email from TMS for 3 weeks now. I guess that I will remove the FMARS pic for now pending reply. As for the sourcing concerns, I recall that I've sent an email to you but you didn't respond. I don't know how to use wikipedia's email system so may I just send quotes from the book instead? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus Have you and Cacti been able to reconnect on this? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 12:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, unfortunately not. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CactiStaccingCrane? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CactiStaccingCrane: hasn't been active in twelve days 750h+ 12:44, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the nominator isn't acting and the sourcing hasn't been vetted fully, archiving the nomination. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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