Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nasr of Granada/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 June 2020 [1].

Nasr of Granada

Nominator(s): HaEr48 (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the fourth Nasrid Sultan of Granada, following the first three which also have been reviewed in FAC (Muhammad I, II and III). His reign was short (a little less than 5 years). I've tried to find all relevant information about him, mostly about geopolitical conflicts of his time, but also a little bit about his early life, personal and legacy. I hope it's ready for FA review. HaEr48 (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

This article is in great shape. A few comments:

Algeciras, Muhammad III, Uthman ibn Abi al-Ula, Guadix and Muhammad I are duplinked
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Ceuta, Algeciras, Ronda and Almeria in the lead
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest "Alhambra palace" in the lead
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
the Birth and early life section needs his full name to be stated and cited, as it is in the lead
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link Nasrid dynasty, Iberian peninsula, vizier"containing not only the forces" at first mention in the body
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
say when Muhammad II died when it is mentioned
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"~~containing~~including not only the forces"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"a contingent of 500 Castilian knights led by Juan Manuel" if that is right?
Done, and added another leader of the desertion found when I reviewed the source. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"and that the Aragonese king ~~was to~~would evacuate his troops from Granadan territories"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
is Tempul now Algar?
My source only says it's near Jerez. So is Algar, so that is possible. How did you infer that? HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is the 13th century Moorish Castillo de Tempul in Algar, see [2]
to avoid using "who" twice in close succession, what about "who replaced Ibn al-Mawl when the latter fled to North Africa"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"while the contemporary scholar Ibn Khaldun"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
who is Antonio Fernández-Puertas?
Added (Arabist scholar). HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The old and nearly blind former sultan"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Thank you for taking a look and for the thoughtful suggestions. I've addressed them, and have a query regarding Tempul/Algar above. Looking forward to further feedback. HaEr48 (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

suggest "Nasr later had his brother drowned"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
not sure what the relevance of "who accepted an earlier death date for Muhammad III" is to the subject of the sentence
The sentence about being outraged by Muhammad III's death only makes sense if the death happens before that (the rebellion starts in 1311). But I guess it's too distracting, I've removed it. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"too much power over the Ssultan" there are other examples where this decapping of Sultan is needed
Done, and fixed the rest too. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"further outraged at the death of Muhammad III"
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
suggest being consistent with Abu Said Faraj, either call him Abu Said or Faraj after intro in full, not both, as it is confusing
Done, good point. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
link for Moorish
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's me done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:49, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: appreciate your feedback and support, and thanks for looking at the article. HaEr48 (talk) 00:04, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Guerillero

Citation thoughts

Arié 1973 has an ISBN according to Amazon
Looks like it's the ISBN of a later version of the book. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fernández-Puertas 1997 wikilinks London even though it is the second entry to mention the city. I would probably just unlink the cities, tbh
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
O'Callaghan 2011 is missing a city
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Latham & Fernández-Puertas 1993 is the only citation to use the red closed source symbol
It's applied by {{Cite EI2}}. I can't change it while still using the template, and it's is useful for other purposes, so I feel it's still worth using despite the red lock. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rubiera Mata 2008 is the only citation to use the green open access symbol
Done, though probably some bot will re-apply it. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is is right to describe as Real Academia de la Historia the editor of Vidal Castro n.d. instead of as the publisher?
Changed to publisher. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Prose thoughts

It is weird to me to call another infobox to include the note
Any suggestion? HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The parenthetical (chief minister) seems unnecessary, but that is probably just me
I think people from different background might have no idea what a vizier means, so I prefer keeping it. HaEr48 (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Besides that everything looks good to me --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

I think the infobox note should be an efn note.
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the first line, I think "reigned 14 March 1309" should be "Sultan of Granada 14 March 1309".
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
His mother's name should be in the lead and the infobox.
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Three maps seems over the top. I would delete the middle one which does not add significant information.
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You say he ceded Algeciras in Sep 1309 and then that he defended it in Jan 1310?
You're right, clarified. It was actually the Marinids who continued the defense after Sep HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think you need to repeat Jan 1310 in the lead.
I think you mean, just write "January" in the second one, yes? Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"due to his excessive activities in science and astronomy, as well as his perceived pro-Christian tendency" This is editorialising. Maybe "as he was suspected of being pro-Christian and accused of devoting so much time to astronomy that he neglected his duties as ruler ".
Replaced with yours, which I think is better.
I am confused about the situation when Nasr took power. In the second paragraph of 'Birth and early life', you say that Granada was on the verge of war, in the next paragraph that it was at war.
Clarified. There are some details here: Muhammad III of Granada#Coalition against Granada about what happened before Nasr's accession. Do you think it's worth adding?
"Harvey rejects this as possible propaganda". This is equivocal. If it was not propaganda what does Harvey think?
You're right, Harvey is unequivocal. Reworded. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The next leader of the rebellion was Abu Said Faraj" Or the leader of the next rebellion? It seems a separate rebellion from what you say.
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"After his defeat and move to Guadix, he still maintained his claim to the throne.[" As it is the start of a new section, you should say "Nasr" not "he".
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Granadan forces under Uthman ibn Abi al-Ula intercepted a Castilian column supplying the besieged Nasr at Guadix" You have not said that Nasr was besieged.
Can't find when the 1316 siege started. Added some specific detail about another siege in 1315, which I can find info on, and reworded the sentence above to "supplying Nasr, who was again besieged at Guadix". HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"a Murcian astronomer" Murcian should be linked.
Done. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is an interesting article. These queries are minor. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Dudley Miles for reviewing and for your feedback. I addressed it as much I can, and have queries for some others. Let me know what you think. HaEr48 (talk) 03:26, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:25, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles: appreciate your feedback and support, and thanks for looking at the article. HaEr48 (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Suggest adding alt text

@Nikkimaria: I already have alt text for the two photos. What kind of alt text would be helpful for maps? HaEr48 (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't have to be super-comprehensive - see Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Accessibility/Alternative_text_for_images#Maps_and_diagrams. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. HaEr48 (talk) 02:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest scaling up the Emirate of Granada map. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. HaEr48 (talk) 00:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

I see an image review and a review of source formatting - @Guerillero: did you check for reliability of the sources? Also, are you supporting, as your comment is a bit ambiguous. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Guerillero: again... --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:23, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: Sorry, I got distracted. I feel that the sources are reliable. I did not do any spotchecks --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from SnowFire

Nice work, support. I didn't closely examine the sources here but I've done close examinations of earlier work, and don't see any reason to doubt this here. The article appears quite comprehensive for a short five-year reign. Three questions, though:

ending the direct male line of the Nasrid dynasty from Muhammad I, the founder of the emirate.

This has three references, so clearly later historians paid attention, but... at risk of inviting synthesis... was this something the Granadans cared about? (e.g. some system a la Salic law that indicated this is a big deal). The history of Granada seems to make it appear a bit like the late Western Roman Empire where anyone with army backing and a sufficiently noble background could present themselves as an alternative ruler. So it's not clear to me this really "mattered" that much, that even if Nasr had 10 kids it's not as if they were guaranteed to be first in line for the throne.

You're right that Granada's succession wasn't as legalistic like for example Salic law, but royal blood appeared to be required. Nasr's death without heir means that Ismail did not have to deal with competing claims, and could take over Nasr's "kingdom" in Guadix without resistance. I added what I can without doing synthesis here, let me know what you think. In addition, historians seems to care enough about this that they consider Ismail I onwards to be a second branch of the dynasty. I added another paragraph regarding the dynastic sucession here, which might answer some of the question, but let me know if you think this is too off-topic. HaEr48 (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those additions look good to me.

Due to the lack of royal leadership, Hermandad General de Andalucía—a regional "brotherhood" of frontier towns—acted to negotiate with Granada

Is Hermandad a relevant link here? My understanding of hermandads was that they were more like a "militia" while this sentence seems to portray it more as a soft cross-town alliance, so I'm not sure it's the right link, but maybe it was closer to a militia usage.

Probably the origin was related, but it seemed the Hermandad General de Andalucía was a specific institution which acted like a cross-town confederation. Created a quick stub on Hermandad General de Andalucía.

Fair enough. I might consider ditching the "brotherhood" bit - yes, that's a literal translation of hermandad and relevant in the stub you spun off, but not really the right English word for what it was. I'd just call it "a regional alliance" or "a regional confederation".

Replaced with confederation. HaEr48 (talk) 04:41, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lastly, this doesn't have anything to do with this article, but have you considered making a spin-off "History of Granada" type article and copy-pasting just the historical events there and skipping the biographical details of the rulers? As is, it's a bit of a Great man theory of history case where to find out the history of Granada, a reader needs to go to the articles on the various sovereigns. Just a thought / suggestion. SnowFire (talk) 02:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point. I have thought of something like that myself but not sure how to structure it, given that I only looked closely at the first few rulers. Maybe I can adapt your idea to something like History of Granada (1238–1314), following the traditional classification of the first four rulers as the first branch of the dynasty. Thank you for your suggestions and support, SnowFire. HaEr48 (talk) 15:04, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, at risk of scope creep, since there isn't even a History of Granada article yet (and Emirate of Granada is pretty slim), I'd say to just call the article History of Granada. If the section for post-1314 is really short, then so be it, no problem with "under construction" type sections. (But, just a suggestion!) SnowFire (talk) 04:19, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.