Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Octopus/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 10:47, 24 June 2017 [1].
- Nominator(s): Chiswick Chap, Cwmhiraeth and LittleJerry (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC).
This article is about the octopus, one of the most intelligent invertebrates, rivaled only by other cephalopods. The article was expanded, improved on, and passed a GA review. We feel it is ready for FAC. LittleJerry (talk) 19:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
Drive by comments
edit- Drive by Comment - It looks like the taxonomy list is a bit out of alignment. For example Suborder Cirrina is at the 3rd level of indentation and Suborder Incirrina is at the second level. Shouldn't all suborders be aligned, all families be aligned, etc? It's mostly aligned just Cirrina. Mattximus (talk) 22:54, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- I aligned the suborders. The families of the two suborders can't be align as one order is divided into superfamilies. LittleJerry (talk) 00:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
Siuenti says
edit- I'm not happy that the article states blankly "is a cephalopod mollusc of the order Octopoda." without explaining what "cephalopod" means. I think other examples of cephalapods would help (squid, nautiluses). Also it would be good to work in soft-bodied (Coleoidea) near the top because that characteristic is high-level than octopodae. Also try to avoid WP:consecutive blue links Siuenti (씨유엔티) 22:21, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks that's much better IMO. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 05:58, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Footnote that the "arms" are not "tentacles" on first mention please. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 22:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- @LittleJerry: do it again please, maybe after "centre point of the arms" Siuenti (씨유엔티) 12:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 12:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
- Because later it says " known as arms (mistakenly called tentacles)". It seems like 'The modern convention however, is to speak of appendages as "tentacles" when they have relatively thin "peduncles" or "stalks" with "clubs" at their tips'. (from tentacle) so they might be referred to as "tentacles" but don't match this strict definition. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 05:53, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Made further changes. LittleJerry (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- @LittleJerry: do it again please, maybe after "centre point of the arms" Siuenti (씨유엔티) 12:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- I thought the Kraken was a squid... Siuenti (씨유엔티) 22:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- It seems it was depicted more like an octopus. LittleJerry (talk) 00:53, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Do you feel like explaining the difference between octopodes and squidopodes somewhere? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 22:47, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- So actually the arm/tentacle thing is the primary difference? Squid have "specialised feeding tentacles" and octopies don't? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 05:58, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- That's the difference that's mentioned in the literature I've come across. LittleJerry (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- So actually the arm/tentacle thing is the primary difference? Squid have "specialised feeding tentacles" and octopies don't? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 05:58, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 00:41, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- Support I still have some quibbles but overall it's a good candidate. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 16:36, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your support. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:58, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Actually the thing I'd like best is to go through the whole thing, adding "as with other cephalopods" and linking to "X in cephalopods" where appropriate, I keep wondering whether things are specific to octopuses or not. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 14:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- I removed all the "as with other cephalopods". Much of what is true about octopuses is true about other cephalopods. We can't keep adding in this phrase to every section as it is tiresome and redundant. LittleJerry (talk) 00:26, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- How about "unlike other cephalopods" then? they can't both be redundant... 212.250.152.37 (talk) 06:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Major differences between octopuses and other cephalopods is already noted in taxonomy. That's as far as I can go. LittleJerry (talk) 14:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- How about "unlike other cephalopods" then? they can't both be redundant... 212.250.152.37 (talk) 06:24, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- I removed all the "as with other cephalopods". Much of what is true about octopuses is true about other cephalopods. We can't keep adding in this phrase to every section as it is tiresome and redundant. LittleJerry (talk) 00:26, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Also there are two bits about chromophores or something, they need to be harmonized. And I think there's a ; that should be colon in one of them. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 14:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Chiswick Chap would probably be better for this. LittleJerry (talk) 00:26, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 17:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Wait, it says they have no skeleton but Cirrina apparently have internal shells. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 14:54, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:02, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
John
editGreat article!
- Pronunciation. (/ˈɒktəpʊs/ or ~/pəs/) seems like the wrong order. Cambridge, Macmillan, and Oxford seem to favour ~/pəs/ although the Beatles pronounced it /ˈɒktəpʊs/. Could these be swapped?
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- The skin consists of a thin outer epidermis overlying a connective tissue dermis. The epidermis contains mucous cells and sensory cells and the dermis consists largely of collagen fibres and various chromatic organs; chromatophores, leucophores, iridophores, reflector cells and photophores. says the same thing twice. There is a bit too much redundancy in general; we get the coconut shells and the mortality experiment twice each and there are (I think) a few things like that.
- Fixed. The coconut shell mention is relevant to both locomotion and intelligence. I removed the part in locomotion about it being used for shelter since it is not relevant there. LittleJerry (talk)
- I also slit information on the ink. Anat&Phys talks about its contents while defense mentions its effects. LittleJerry (talk) 16:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- Moved information on mimicry to defense. The major redundancies should be fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:14, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- Was very overlinked and there is likely some more work to be done in honing links to the really useful ones.
- Did some. LittleJerry (talk) 00:00, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- Did some more, seems to be about right now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:47, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- Octopuses may be preyed on by fishes, seabirds, pinnipeds and cetaceans; I think humans' role should be mentioned if it is a significant one which I suspect it is.
- The source doesn't mention humans as predators. Anyway, we usually don't mention humans as predators in animal article expect in relation to conservation, hunting, ect. The consumption of octopuses is mentioned. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Not entirely happy with this, but let me think about it. Regardless of what other articles do, human predation should be mentioned in these terms if it is important, and we imply it is by discussing the role in cuisine. Let me think about it some more.--John (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- The source doesn't mention humans as predators. Anyway, we usually don't mention humans as predators in animal article expect in relation to conservation, hunting, ect. The consumption of octopuses is mentioned. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Other zoologists thought it a spermatophore; the German zoologist Heinrich Müller believed it was designed to detach during copulation. "Designed" is rather jarring here. Do we need it?
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Is "adapted" better? What language does the source use? --John (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- It quotes Muller. LittleJerry (talk) 23:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Is "adapted" better? What language does the source use? --John (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:17, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- Probably a few more items. Nothing that can't be fixed. --John (talk) 19:15, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
- What does cleavage is superficial mean? --John (talk) 09:04, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth would be better for this. LittleJerry (talk) 16:42, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm less worried about this now that I have found and wikilinked the cleavage (embryo) article. It should ideally still be explained for the lay reader if it is important enough to mention. --John (talk) 16:55, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Better? LittleJerry (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Better. --John (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Better? LittleJerry (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm less worried about this now that I have found and wikilinked the cleavage (embryo) article. It should ideally still be explained for the lay reader if it is important enough to mention. --John (talk) 16:55, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth would be better for this. LittleJerry (talk) 16:42, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure this makes sense. Octopuses generally avoid humans, but attacks have occasionally been verified. For example, an 2.4-metre (8 ft) Pacific octopus, said to be nearly perfectly camouflaged, "lunged" at a diver and "wrangled" over his camera before it let go. It seems rather lame as "attacks" go. Is there a better example? Or is this example individually notable so as to need recorded? --John (talk) 16:50, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- The point is that real attacks do exist but have this rather tame character, very different from the overdramatised versions in film and fiction. Seems well worth having. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Point taken. Does the source refer to it as an "attack"? Maybe "incident" is fairer? --John (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Many thanks. It uses the word "ambush" which is a type of attack, e.g. the cougar is an ambush predator. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- It does, but I don't like the use of this low-quality source to support either "attack" or "ambush" on a biology article. --John (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- OK, incident it is then. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
- It does, but I don't like the use of this low-quality source to support either "attack" or "ambush" on a biology article. --John (talk) 22:10, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Many thanks. It uses the word "ambush" which is a type of attack, e.g. the cougar is an ambush predator. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Point taken. Does the source refer to it as an "attack"? Maybe "incident" is fairer? --John (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- The point is that real attacks do exist but have this rather tame character, very different from the overdramatised versions in film and fiction. Seems well worth having. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:58, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- What does Several questionable size records would suggest the giant Pacific octopus is the largest of all known octopus species by a considerable margin... mean? If they are questionable, why are we referring to them? In a philosophical sense, all information is questionable. Can we clarify this? --John (talk) 10:56, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
- Said "Much larger sizes ... have been claimed": the situation is that reliable sources report a history of somewhat doubtful claims. Hope this wording is satisfactory! Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:32, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
- Please check these edits. I am almost finished. I'd be ready to support after one more pass. --John (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
- These seem entirely good to me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
- I now support on prose, apparent completeness, sourcing and images. It's been a pleasure to work with such a collegial team. Thanks for working on this important article and making it so good.--John (talk) 21:37, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
- These seem entirely good to me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:51, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
- There's a number missing here. Also, a more modern source would be good. "Octopus fisheries exist around the world with total catches varying between 245,320 and 322,99 metric tons from 1986–1995." --John (talk) 23:52, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed. Source says 322,999 mt. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:49, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Image review
edit- File:Tremoctopus_violaceus5.jpg needs a US PD tag, and what is the author's date of death?
- Done. LittleJerry (talk) 16:12, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
- Same with File:Octopus_vulgaris_Merculiano.jpg
- File:AMI_-_Oktopusvase.jpg: should include an explicit tag for the vase itself
- File:Colossal_octopus_by_Pierre_Denys_de_Montfort.jpg needs a US PD tag.
- PD-US. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Same with File:Tako_to_ama_(detail).jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:52, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
- I have since added a new image which was uploaded by the author. LittleJerry (talk) 18:32, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
Sabine's Sunbird's support comments
edit
Resolved
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Always good to see the higher level taxa being taken on. Some comments:
I'll do some more reading tomorrow. Cheers. Sabine's Sunbird talk 09:48, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, long day. Will finish soon. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:43, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
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- Support (conditional on one tiny fix noted above about fisheries). Thanks for working on a high level taxa and being responsive to feedback. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:06, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Sabine's Sunbird: Can you elaborate on why you don't like "as food" as a section title and why you think "fisheries" or "economic importance" is better? The section is not just about fishing, it is about catching and eating octopuses. The unifying theme is octopuses as a food for humans, which comprises both fishing and culinary aspects. IMO, your suggested titles only cover the first of these and do not tell the reader that the section also covers octopus dishes. A2soup (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- As food doesn't really cover fisheries or economic importance. The economic, ecological and logistical background of any natural foodstuff is separate from their culinary nature. To avoid getting bogged down I didn't insist on it but I would prefer the section touched on overfishing, economic size and jobs, and so on. Also - as food only really works as a title if you start with Relationship with humans - as food. If you insist on keeping it then Octopuses as food would read better. Although Cuisine and fisheries is better than that. Or something else. I don't really care, if you really prefer as food then switch it back. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- This seems to have been resolved by the choice of 'Fisheries and cuisine'. Good as any. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:38, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
- As food doesn't really cover fisheries or economic importance. The economic, ecological and logistical background of any natural foodstuff is separate from their culinary nature. To avoid getting bogged down I didn't insist on it but I would prefer the section touched on overfishing, economic size and jobs, and so on. Also - as food only really works as a title if you start with Relationship with humans - as food. If you insist on keeping it then Octopuses as food would read better. Although Cuisine and fisheries is better than that. Or something else. I don't really care, if you really prefer as food then switch it back. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:05, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
- @Sabine's Sunbird: Can you elaborate on why you don't like "as food" as a section title and why you think "fisheries" or "economic importance" is better? The section is not just about fishing, it is about catching and eating octopuses. The unifying theme is octopuses as a food for humans, which comprises both fishing and culinary aspects. IMO, your suggested titles only cover the first of these and do not tell the reader that the section also covers octopus dishes. A2soup (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
Comments Support from Cas Liber (and spot check/source review)
edit
- If
possible, avoid having all four paras of lead starting with "Octopuses..."
- Fixed one of 'em. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Yup, that helps Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:09, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Fixed one of 'em. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- one specimen was recorded as 272 kg (600 lb) with an arm span of 9 m (30 ft). - I would clarify how/why this is unsubstantiated.
I also don't think you need standalone sentences in this section.
- Closed up. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:05, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
I'd link circulatory system somewhere...
Do all species have inksacs? Be good to know and reference that...
- Its mentioned that Cirrate octopuses don't have ink sacs. LittleJerry (talk) 13:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Oops, my bad. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:35, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Its mentioned that Cirrate octopuses don't have ink sacs. LittleJerry (talk) 13:40, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Did classical folks call them octopuses? Or is it a modern construct (i.e. when were they first called octopuses?) Be good to note in the Etymology and pluralisation section
- Yes, it's ancient Greek, linked in that section. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- What I meant was, did they call them that or was it a medieval or later invention of word by joining two ancient Greek words...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- It's new Latin transcribed from genuine ancient Greek as spoken and written by the ancients, such as Alexander of Tralles, as oktopous or more usually oktapous. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- What I meant was, did they call them that or was it a medieval or later invention of word by joining two ancient Greek words...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:39, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, it's ancient Greek, linked in that section. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Are any species endangered? Are any invasive?
- Can't seem to find much on either. I mostly find articles on the "endangered" Pacific Northwest tree octopus, which is a hoax. LittleJerry (talk) 13:51, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Earwigs threw up a result at copyvio check. Hard to tell if it is a mirror but there are a few segments it might be prudent to change.
- The YouTube text is certainly copied from here. I'm basically sure that the World Animal Foundation text is too, but copyedited just in case. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Ok, all good on comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:35, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- Ref formatting ok,
though could we add some more info to web refs? (FN 136, 137)
- FN 18 used once, faithful to source (NB: has the material to elaborate on largest Pacific octopus above).
- FN 46 used once, faithful to source.
- FN 104 used once, faithful to source.
Happy with spot check. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:18, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
Coordinator comments
editRef 13 is dead and a couple of the external links are dead. Also, while not an absolute requirement, I think that FAs should use alt text as they are an example of best practice. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Ref 13 removed; ref 14 covers sentence. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- 2 dead external links removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:23, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Supplied alt texts for all the images. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:52, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.