Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Outer Wilds/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 15 June 2024 [1].

Outer Wilds

Nominator(s): Pres N 02:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Outer Wilds is a game that's hard to explain: not because it's complex, but because the less you know going into it, the more you'll get out of it. All you ever have in the game is what's in your head, so I'm doing you a disservice by nominating this if you ever plan on playing it. But I'm doing it anyway, because for a subset of people (myself included), Outer Wilds is the best experience they've ever had with a video game, and I wanted to share that in an article. It's a GA and polished and ready for review and this isn't my first (or 20th) rodeo at FAC and all that, but really I just wanted people who go cared enough to go looking to know that in 2012 Alex Beachum made a sketch of a game about roasting campfire marshmallows while the sun explodes, and a little over seven years later what it became won the video game BAFTA for game of the year without losing that heart. I enjoyed writing this, and I hope you enjoy reviewing it. --Pres N 02:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from NegativeMP1

I have never played this game, and I'm not sure if I ever will. I can't tell if this means I am the perfect candidate to review this from the perspective of a casual reader, or if it makes me one of the worst candidates. I'll drop some comments in the coming days. λ NegativeMP1 04:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the outlook of my schedule in the coming days, it seems I'm going to be doing this review while on mobile and also not in the country. I intend on squeezing in time to review this anyways, but I'll have to be breaking up my comments by section over time. Hoping this is fine with you. λ NegativeMP1 05:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like the screenshot should be moved over to the gameplay section, since seeing the image while reading gameplay may help better understand it. Just a suggestion, though.
"No longer able to detect the signal, dubbed the "Eye of the Universe", the Nomai built a civilization throughout the system in order to find it again." Unless the "Eye of the Universe" is the dub for something else, it should be "No longer able to detect the signal, the Nomai built a civilization throughout the system in order to find it again, dubbed the "Eye of the Universe." If it is the dub for something else, that should likely be clarified.

Didn't notice anything else right now but I might take a second look later since I did this short on time. λ NegativeMP1 02:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NegativeMP1: Moved the image; it was in development because on wider screens the infobox pushes most of the way through gameplay. Rephrased that sentence. --Pres N 15:45, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PresN: After seeing an example of how wider screens can change how images get displayed on articles at my own FAC, I think it's completely up to you on whichever one you think it is best. Anywho, anything else I could've pointed out has been pointed out by the following reviews, so I think my comments end here. Indie game articles of this level of quality are always good to see, Support. λ NegativeMP1 01:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Some images are missing alt text

File:Outer_Wilds_screenshot_nomai.png: suggest elaborating the FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Both done, thanks. --Pres N 12:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jaguar

Comments to follow soon. ♦ JAGUAR 22:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, work has been hectic. Comments incoming. ♦ JAGUAR 09:21, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 48 - Edge's publisher is Future
Ref 58 - link Gamer Network
"...Matthew Castle of Rock Paper Shotgun, and Evans-Thirlwell of Eurogamer praised the new mechanics and puzzles of the Stranger," - while Castle undoubtedly praises the DLC, his article does not mention the Stranger. You could split this and say he praised the amount of content the DLC offered, in contrast to modern cash grabs
"while mrderiv of Jeuxvideo.com said that the game creates" - perhaps it would be best to put this in single quotes?

I have conducted a source review and could not find any issues to raise, bar a couple of missing fields. The text is all backed up, and with the exception of the tweet all sources are properly archived. Likewise there are no dead links or copyvios. I am happy to support based on the source review, since everything is in order, and I have been beaten to reviewing the prose. ♦ JAGUAR 10:31, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All done; Castle didn't use mention the Stranger by name, but all the content he called out was on it; I've sorted it by making it "new mechanics and puzzles of the expansion". Thanks for the review! --Pres N 15:26, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Draken Bowser

Reading. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Content-wise I think we're covered, but the prose could use some attention.

Lead

The game features the player character exploring a planetary system stuck in a 22-minute time loop that ends with the sun going supernova. The player explores the system on foot and in a small spacecraft, investigating the alien ruins of the Nomai and finding their history and the cause of the time loop. - Repetitive, I'd prefer introducing the setting and the player's journey in wholly separate sentences.
The game began development in 2012 as director Alex Beachum's master's thesis~~, integrating several concepts he had developed while at school~~. He was inspired to create a game focused on exploration ~~rather than traditional gameplay elements like resources or conquering, and~~ in which the player character was not the center of the game world. - I don't think we need to go into this detail in the lead.

Gameplay

an unnamed four-eyed Hearthian space explorer - the reader will probably assume this is an alien species, but could we get the relevant context from "settning" to come before this somehow?
killing them if too much injury is sustained. - how is damaged tracked, a standard hp system or by some other metric?

More to follow. Draken Bowser (talk) 12:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All above done. --Pres N 15:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

requiring the player to counteract their own momentum to slow down while flying, and causing the planets and other bodies to swiftly orbit the sun throughout the 22 minutes and exert their own variable gravity fields. - Not an error, but I think going from general to specific flows better, which would mean switching the clauses. Regardless, "throughout the 22 minutes" can be struck.
this damage can destroy it and kill the player if there is too much, and can otherwise be repaired by exiting the spacecraft and interacting with the damaged component. Both the spacecraft and the spacesuit can be used to launch a small probe that can light up an area or take pictures. → too much damage can destroy it and kill the player, but can otherwise be repaired by exiting the spacecraft and interacting with the damaged component. Both the spacecraft and the spacesuit can launch a small probe to light up an area or take pictures.
The player character does not have an inventory, and can only carry a single object at a time. - Do we need to specify that there's no inventory? I'm undecided

Removed, I think its implied by the second half of the sentence

and Nomai writing, presented as a branching conversation, can be read with the use of a translator tool. - I'm imagining that reading it is a bit like going through an RPG dialogue, but could it be made more clear?

Tried - see the image in "plot" for how it works- a statement is a line, and one or more responses branch off of that line, each of which can in turn have responses

Plot

Optional wl: [[Cloaking device|cloaking field]]
The ending of the "story" and "Echoes of the Eye" paragraphs mentions "quantum versions", it is not immediately clear to me what this means.

Removed- I think "versions" probably gets across the idea, which is that the game leaves it ambiguous to what extent they're the "real" people in question and gives no explanation for how they got there, it's pretty dream-like.

Ok, I don't like the standalone "version(s)", could we go with "alter ego(es)"? /DB

Eh, they're not alter egos, though, so I'm hesitant to use that term. Echoes maybe? Or I could just leave it as "the player encounters the other members of Outer Wilds".

I see. I think the idea that something seems slightly out of place needs to be, to the extent that sources allow it, somehow conveyed. Echoes sorta works, doesn't it? Otherwise we could as you suggest omit it entirely. /DB

Used 'echoes'.

Development and release

Might want to lead with "The development of Outer wilds.." or something similar.
Beachum had created elements that would later make it into the game in previous projects at the school, including a planetary system changing over time, a planet falling apart, and trees that moved when they were not observed, and for his thesis wanted to combine and build on these elements. → Beachum reused elements from previous projects at the school, including a planetary system changing over time, a planet falling apart, and trees that moved when they were not observed.
and Giant's Deep is loosely on Santa Cruz beach cliffs. - add based or go for "inspired".
This is intended to train players to not exhaustively check every area, in order to ~~discourage players from spending time searching where nothing is present as well as to~~ steer them towards the paths the team wanted them to find first and not hidden shortcuts. - slightly redundant and can be inferred from the preceding sentence, or add "or empty areas" at the end.

Time for another break. Draken Bowser (talk) 06:12, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Above all done, left a couple explanatory comments in-line. --Pres N 18:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Design

who had worked with Beachum previously - we could tack this onto the first sentence.
Wl [[Motif (music)|motif]] and then I think we can go with The central motif ~~of the music~~ was based on sitting around a campfire
Based on the description of the other Outer Wilds explorers, Prahlow gave each of them an instrument based on their personalities to either "He gave each of the other Outer Wilds explorers an instrument based on their personality" or "Each of the other Outer Wilds explorers was given an instrument based on their personality"
with the concept that they were all playing the same song apart but still together. - from what part of the source is this derived?

Gah, it's not in that one, sorry- 38:20-39:10 in the Making of documentary (ref 29, which was being used for the next couple of sentences already)

Prahlow did not write ~~more~~ general background music - remove or replace with "any"
so that it would only play - replace with "music"

Echoes of the Eye

They came up with a central motif of light and darkness, with ~~the concept that~~ the truth ~~was~~ hidden in the darkness waiting to be found~~, but might be scary or unpleasant~~.
The team had previously considered the idea of having an invisible planet, including it as a stretch goal in the original Fig campaign, and returned to the concept in Echoes as an invisible artificial structure. → I'm not entirely pleased with my attempt at a rewrite here, but maybe something like: "The original fundraising campaign had included an invisible planet as a stretch goal, and in Echoes the team molded the concept into an invisible artificial structure." and in that case maybe add: "The original fundraising campaign for Outer Wilds"
Prahlow returned as the composer for the expansion, incorporating new instruments into the tracks to give the impression of stepping into somewhere new and scary but still anchored to where the player character came from. - Is he reusing entire tracks or motifs to make it seem familiar? If tracks, "old" could be added for clarity.

That would be all! Draken Bowser (talk) 07:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Above all done, left a couple explanatory comments in-line again. --Pres N 15:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers! I think you forgot to address my comments on the lead or else assert why the current version is better. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Whoops, I did but then I didn't actually save. Now done. --Pres N 17:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NegativeMP1, Jaguar, and Draken Bowser: Pinging as a reminder. --Pres N 01:41, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jaguar: second ping (and @Draken Bowser:, mostly to indicate that I think I've responded to everything now so if you're waiting on something else please let me know.) --Pres N 15:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just following the review from the sidelines, but no more lollygagging! Nice work. Draken Bowser (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've just realized that there are a couple of books and academic sources, which probably have to be included. Are dissertations due for a subject like this by enwp-standards, or no? Draken Bowser (talk) 21:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Theses/dissertations are not typically used unless there's a compelling reason for them. I'll see what I can use, but besides a few master's theses (not typically usable), I'm seeing some articles on posthumanism ("it's posthuman in the sense that the aliens aren't human"), philosofiction ("things look like science but aren't"), and archeology ("some games explore things that look like archeology, which is neat"), in very minor journals I've never heard of, and some essays in a book and college magazines about time loops ("they're neat") and global warming ("the sun exploding is like global warming"). They're not actually about the actual themes of the game (the journey matters, even if its not as long as you'd like) but kind of tangential to the game, so I'm not sure how to use them beyond a sentence about "scholars have used the game as an example of themes in fiction and video games", which seems trite. --Pres N 00:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you think about Collaborative Worldbuilding for Videogames by Kaitlin Tremblay? If nothing else it should allow for a more detailed description of the planetary environments. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Independent Videogames by Paulo Rufino makes the interesting point that Annapurna's purchase offered a nice return on investment for the Fig backers. Do any of the other sources ballpark just how much? Draken Bowser (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added a sentence + source that gives the specific amount- a 245% return (implying that Annapurna paid ~300k, though that's OR). I don't get the Outer Wilds section of the Worldbuilding book in my preview, but video game articles typically do not give detailed descriptions of the game environments. --Pres N 01:01, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we could use Chapter 4 to give a description of the Hearthians and Nomai (third to last paragraph), there's also an interesting elaboration on the utility of the signalscope, and how the player can position themselves to get the "full version" of the soundtrack with all instruments (second to last and last paragraph). I've emailed you a transcript. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Thank you so much for emailing me the transcript! You're right, there was a good amount to use there and I was too quick to dismiss it. I've added it as a source for additional details in setting and development. --Pres N 14:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking good. There is also some content on OW in chapter 2, but it's mostly by using The twin hourglasses as a case study in game design, and making a couple of other statements that are either already covered or might otherwise not be due. Still, I could send the chapter 2-transcript for your consideration, if you like. Draken Bowser (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Yes please, my preview just has the last sentence of that segment. --Pres N 19:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Draken Bowser: Thanks again; I don't think that it's a due level of detail, but I do think it's a better source for the bit in gameplay about the changes over time then the review I was using, so added that in. --Pres N 00:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by DWB

Hi PresN, thank you for taking the time to review Mission Impossible Fallout. As I'm trying to build up a bit more review activity I've taken the opportunity to review the Outer Wilds in return as it's one of the few articles in an area I like (gaming). I don't know much about the game, I played it briefly but couldn't quite get into it. I have the following notes which mostly relate to copyediting and are coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't know a lot about the Outer Wilds so hopefully it'll give you an outsider's perspective. Most of them are recommendations as I may have misunderstood elements of the game.

"The game features the player character exploring a planetary system stuck in a 22-minute time loop that ends with the sun going supernova. The player explores the system on foot and in a small spacecraft, investigating the alien ruins of the Nomai and finding their history and the cause of the time loop." -> recommend a possible change "The game follows the player character as they explore a planetary system stuck in a 22-minute time loop that resets after the sun goes supernova and destroys the system. The player is able to freely explore the system in a small spacecraft and traverse planets on foot to discover the history of the ancient Nomai race and the cause of the time loop."

Did the first sentence, but this overlapped with a change for the above reviewer on the second.

"He was inspired to create a game focused on exploration rather than traditional gameplay elements like resources or conquering" I think maybe from a layman perspective this may not make sense? I'd suggest maybe changing this to "collecting resources" or "fighting enemies"(?) if that's what conquering means.

Change overlaps with one made for the above reviewer that removed the phrase altogether

"an unnamed four-eyed Hearthian space explorer referred to as the Hatchling" I would maybe consider removing "four-eyed Hearthian" as we've not established what Hearthian is at this point.

Done

" if they are wearing their spacesuit they may also use its jetpack to propel themselves" Upwards? Forwards? Omni-directional?

Done (upwards)

"The locations change over the course of the time loop, such as by parts of a planet collapsing or sand flowing from one place to another, causing some areas to only be accessible at certain portions of the time loop." I think this could be potentially re-worded, a suggestion is "Locations evolve throughout the duration of the time loop, such as parts of a planet collapsing or sand flowing from one area to another, making some areas only accessible from specific points in the time loop."

Done

"Hearthians throughout the planetary system can be communicated with in text-based dialogue trees, and Nomai writing, presented as a branching tree of messages, can be read with the use of a translator tool." I think you are trying to avoid short sentences here but I think the meaning is getting mied together as, if I'm reading it right, we're talking about two different gameplay elements right? Maybe specify that Nomai writings are hidden among their ruins? I don't know if they are found from other means.

Done

"Timber Hearth, a forested Earth-like planet that is the homeworld of the four-eyed Hearthian species and is orbited by a small rocky moon, the Attlerock;" I'd maybe make these separate entries as I think it reads a bit weird, not a huge change just "; the Attlerock, a small rocky moon orbiting Timber Hearth;"

Done

"Brittle Hollow, a hollow planet that is collapsing into the black hole at its center and is orbited by Hollow's Lantern," Same here, a black hole hasn't been established at this point, is this a black hole INSIDE Brittle Hollow? I'd maybe just change "the blackhole" to "a blackhole", "the blackhole" makes it sound like it's a bigger deal to the solar system.

Done (a)

" Additionally, the loop resets after 22 minutes regardless, as the sun abruptly goes supernova, killing the Hatchling." seems like a bit of an understatement, it destroys the entire system doesn't it? Is it not the end of all existence, although I don't think the player knows that at the time.

Done

"After discovering that with enough power, objects or information sent between a linked pair of black and white holes could travel backwards in time, they built a probe cannon in orbit around Giants Deep that would fire the probe in a random direction to find the Eye, and a sun station orbiting the star that would induce a supernova to send the probe's data back in time 22 minutes." I think the first comma is misplaced and should come after "that" and another after "enough power". It also seems quite lengthy as a single sentence. A suggested change is "The Nomai eventually discover that, with enough power, they can send objects or information backwards in time using a linked pair of black and white holes. To this end, they built a probe cannon in orbit around Giants Deep to fire the problem in a random direction to locate the Eye, and a station in orbit around the sun that would artificially induce a supernova, generating enough power to send the probe's data back in time 22 minutes."

Done

I'm a bit unclear why they were trying to send things back in time 22 minutes? I assume so the probe would be reset and they could use it again?

Added a bit to clarify (the direction is different each time, so with the time loop they can just fire it millions of times until they find the eye, and then cut off the time loop before it starts again.)

"The sun station did not work, however, and before an alternate power source could be found, the Interloper entered the system. Upon reaching the sun and melting, a powerful wave of "ghost matter" spread throughout the system, killing all of the Nomai instantly. " I'd include this sentence in the paragraph above it since it's part of the Nomai history and the next sentence brings the reader to the present.

Done

"Within this ship, called the Stranger" - the Stranger should be italicized as a shipname I believe?

The game doesn't italicize it, as it's treated like an object/location, not a formal name for a spacecraft

"films Apollo 13 and 2001: A Space Odyssey, and took cues from The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker's" add year of release in brackets, i.e. Apollo 13 (1995)

Done

"After graduation in May 2013" -> "after graduating in May 2013,"

Done

"Loan Verneau, who had worked on Outer Wilds" the prototype? I might be misunderstanding but is there one version of Outer Wilds from university through to release or is their the university version and the Mobius version? I think maybe just make, if I'm understanding correctly, that the Outer Wilds they made originally is the same Outer Wilds released, just polished in a professional environment at Mobius

Tweaked

"by their output"->"by their work"

Done

"They submitted it to the Independent Games Festival, where in early 2015" -> "In early 2015, they submitted it to the Independent Games Festival, where..."

Tweaked it a different way ("The team submitted Outer Wilds to the 2015 Independent Games Festival,")- it's not useful to the reader, but technically entries would have been submitted in mid-fall 2014, with finalists announced in January 2015 and the winners in February.

"This inspired Mobius" -> "In response to its positive reception, Mobius..." I think saying the company was inspired probably doesn't fit.

Done

"the development timeline was pushed out" extended?

Done

"A PlayStation 4 retail version was released by Limited Run Games in 2020." I assume you mean a physical copy? There's no mention that the other versions were digital though? Or am I misreading this?

Tweaked

"Critics highly praised the gameplay, though some aspects had a mixed reception." this would need a source as the only references are two separate reviews which don't really support the statement. Same with "Reviewers also praised the graphics and aesthetics." The game is 5 years old now so it might be easier to find modern sources that look back at the game and support broad statements like this.

I think its a departure from how films handle it, but Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Video games#Reception actually explicitly calls for these kind of "topic sentences".

"The changes to the system over the time loop were often compared to clockwork," I think this needs to be clearer what system you're referring to as at first I thought this meant the gameplay but I assume it means changes to the planetary system?

Added planetary

Are there any sales figures?

No, unfortunately. Unlike for films, because sales platforms don't release sales numbers, we're at the whim of the publishers/developers to release information, and annoyingly neither Mobius nor Annapurna ever have for this game. Non-RSs have guessed about a million and a half copies, but that's little better than a guess.

As mentioned above the game is 5 years old now, I think it's fifth anniversary just passed actually, has it been noted to have influenced other games, other game designers? Talks of a sequel? For instance I've found this article by PC Gamer listing the best games of that console generation. There might not be much as it's still relatively young but just covering the bases.

Ah, missed that one, PC World isn't a big video game review outlet. Added to the sentence that covers "game of the decade/generation" lists. But no, I haven't seen anyone calling out the game as an explicit inspiration yet, though I fully expect to within the next few years.

Is the metacritic box for the DLC really necessary? The score is in the text and the table only offers 3 other alternate scores. Given that, on my monitor at least, it's pushed down almost into the Awards section by the metacritic box for the main game, the article may benefit from just removing it entirely.

I'll drop it, but some people get unreasonably insistent on having them whenever possible, so we'll see.

Hopefully this is useful to you. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 16:36, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Darkwarriorblake: Thanks for reviewing; I've done all but responded inline with details where appropriate. --Pres N 22:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good job PresN looking better, shame there are no sales figures available for it. One last thing I noticed, the gameplay image is doing this on my high resolution screen so it will be affecting other users. The lower resolution you go the more space the text takes up and the image fits better so it probably looks fine on your screen. I would potentially consider floating the image on the left instead of the right so the infobox isn't pushing it down or maybe host it in the plot section? Although gameplay section is probably the best place for it. It's not mandatory as what looks bad for me might not look bad for 80% of users, I don't know what a common resolution is, but it's something be conscious of. I'd also consider setting the awards table to full width as there's a lot of empty white space there. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 17:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It does that for me too; I had the image down in Development so it wouldn't do that, but the reviewer above asked for me to move it to Gameplay instead. Thanks for supporting! --Pres N 18:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

References: article titles should be consistently either in sentence case or title case. Regardless of how they appear in their originals. Yours are a mix. The tool discussed here may be helpful with this.
You need to state that it is a video game in the first sentences of both the lead and the main article.
Link master's thesis. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: All three done, thanks. --Pres N 00:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.