Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Palo (religion)/archive1
Palo (religion) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Toolbox |
---|
- Nominator(s): Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is about an Afro-Cuban religion revolving around spirits that are housed in cauldrons and fed with blood. Much of the tradition derives from the Kongo religion of Central Africa, so there is much here to interest Africanists as well as those intrigued by religions of the Americas. This has been a Good Article since August 2023 and I am now hoping to bring it to FA status, having already done so for two other Afro-Caribbean religion articles, Santería and Rastafari. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Image review
- Suggest editing captions for grammar
- I've gone through and made some tweaks to the image captions. Any further recommendations on these captions would of course be welcome. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suggest adding alt text
- I've gone through the article and added these to the images. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:WLA_metmuseum_Power_Figure_Male_Nkisi.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured?
- In this case, the creator of the original nkisi being photographed will probably never be known; nor will the exact date when it was made, although it is dated to between 1800 and 1950. The object is nevertheless on display in a public museum and the photograph has been issued under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The photograph's licensing is not an issue, but as the US does not have freedom of panorama for non-buildings, we do need to account for the copyright status of the work as well. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- As we don't have access to the copyright status of the original object (as the creator is now de facto anonymous), could we maybe use a picture of a nkisi from a museum in a different country that does have freedom of panorama for non-buildings? Could we use this (File:Nkisi-Songye (British Museum).jpg) image from the UK, for instance? Or this one (File:Nkisi figure, Congo, DR Congo, early 20th century - Rautenstrauch-Joest-Museum - Cologne, Germany.jpg) from Germany? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Goetia_seals.jpg: are these taken directly from the Lesser Key, or are they original works?
- The explanation given by the original uploader claims that they are their own original illustrations, but looking closely, the fact that there are numbers right by them suggests that this is actually a scan from a printed edition of the Lesser Key, which will probably be late 19th or early-to-mid 20th-century in date. I think the safest bet is just to get rid of this image from the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- File:Fétiche_du_Bas-Congo.jpg: what is the copyright status of the work pictured, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
- I've changed the licensing on this one; as it was published in Belgium in the first decade of the 20th century, we should be able to use the following: "This image is in the public domain in the United States because it was first published outside the United States prior to January 1, 1929." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- What about the author question? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately we will almost certainly never know who the author was. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- File:Adechina.jpg needs a US tag, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 100 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed this image from the article; while the photograph is late 19th-century in origin, I am unsure when it was first published, which raises issues when trying to determine its copyright status. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Coordinator note
editThis has been open for over three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless there's substantial progress in the next few days, it is liable to be archived. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've been waiting for the right moment to review this one, will it postpone it being archived if I begin soon? FunkMonk (talk) 23:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, the nomination seems to have been "saved" by three reviews beginning before I got the time, but feel free to ping me if it somehow stalls. FunkMonk (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hey FunkMonk the nomination has picked up more reviews but it would only be improved by additional commentary. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:38, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ok, the nomination seems to have been "saved" by three reviews beginning before I got the time, but feel free to ping me if it somehow stalls. FunkMonk (talk) 21:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Midnightblueowl any update on addressing the comments provided by reviewers below? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for your message. I've just logged in and will address those comments now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Jens
editI already started on this a few days ago. Very difficult for me to find any issues here (it is an excellent and very solid work as always), but here is what I got so far, more soon:
- link "orthodoxy"?
- meaning "a person who works a nganga" – Nganga is mentioned here for the first time in the main text, not sure if this needs a short gloss?
- A good idea. I've added the following to the end of the sentence: ", the latter being the spirit-vessel central to the religion." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- From reading the article it seems to me that this religion has more connections to forests than similar African diasporic religions, maybe because the Bakongo originally depended on the African rainforest? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is possible, although even among certain West African groups like the Fon, initiatory rituals will take place in the forest (Timothy Landry's book discusses this), so the Bakongo were not alone in regarding the forest as a place ideally suited for spirit contact. Moreover, even in more West African-derived diasporic traditions, such as Santería and Candomblé, there is some importance placed on going into the forest to collect healing plants. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Caption: human skull and bones displayed in the Museo de Orishas in Havana. Human remains are included in the nganga of Palo. – Does this particular specimen on display have any connections with Palo? If so, could these be pointed out?
- Unfortunately I'm not sure exactly what this specimen actually represents. I chose it because we lack good photographs at Wikimedia Commons to illustrate this article (we could really do with a photo of an actual nganga), so have had to use less relevant imagery. Do you think this image should be removed? Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- judíasto – space missing
- Well spotted; corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- When a new nganga is created for a padre or madre, – I couldn't follow here; "padre" and "madre" are mentioned here for the first time but are not explained. Maybe they can be avoided here (maybe replace with "senior practitioner")?
- Good point. I've just gone with "practitioner" as a replacement, as it is simpler. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- and draw marks on their body, often in cascarilla – what does this mean? Cascarilla is a plant? What is "draw in cascarilla"?
- I don't have Ochoa's book to hand, but I assume that the marks are drawn in a paste made from cascarilla. I'll remove mention of the plant for now, however, until I can confirm this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Practitioners kneel before the ngangas in greeting; they often greet it – should "it" be "them" so that the plural matches?
- Yes, that makes sense. I'll change it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:55, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- they often greet it with the words "Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam." – Can this be translated?
- Dodson doesn't give a translation in his text, unfortunately, which is the only reliable source I have found to support this statement. It seems obvious that the phrase comes from the Arabic greeting that means "peace be upon you", but I am unsure if Palo practitioners (very few of whom are likely to speak Arabic) would use it to convey the same exact meaning. It may be that they are simply repeating a phrase that bears ritual significance but for which the original connotations (perhaps brought over by enslaved African Muslims) has been lost. If the latter scenario is the case, a comparison could be made with the term nganga, which means something quite different in Palo from what it meant to Kikongo speakers in Central Africa. To try and deal with the situation, what I have done here is added a link to the Wikipedia article on As-salamu alaykum. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- does its keeper's bidding, the latter sometimes threaten it, – "threatens"?
- Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- In "Beliefs", there is this sentence: Senior practitioners may have multiple ngangas, some of which they have inherited from their own teachers. In "Practises", this is stated: At their initiation ceremony to the level of padre or madre, a palero/palera will often be given their own nganga. – This now sounds as if most paleros don't have their own nganga? That's not what I imagined after reading the "beliefs" section. Maybe this could be shortly mentioned in the "beliefs" section too.
- I've added the following to the Beliefs section: "A practitioner may receive a nganga only once they have reached a certain level of seniority in the tradition,". Hopefully that makes things clearer at an earlier stage in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Some practitioners are content to remain at this level and do not pursue further initiation to reach the level of padre or madre. – This contradicts the earlier statement that initiation into padre or madre is "rare". Should it be "Most practitioners are content to remain at this level"?
- There might be some difference in emphasis on these points because we are citing two separate authors, who will obviously have worked with different Palo groups. To try and deal with this, maybe I should change "some" to "many" here? That shifts the emphasis without being as definitive as "most" suggests. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There might be some difference in emphasis on these points because we are citing two separate authors, who will obviously have worked with different Palo groups. To try and deal with this, maybe I should change "some" to "many" here? That shifts the emphasis without being as definitive as "most" suggests. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- When the tata or yayi or a house is close to death, – How can a house be dead?
- "or" should be "of" here! Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- After this leader's death, other senior initiates often have the option – Is this indeed only referring to the death of the new leader, and does not apply when the original leader dies?
- I've changed this sentence to the following: "Alternatively, at a leader's death, the senior initiates of the house may leave to join another or establish their own." Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- it is also expected that sacrifices one the ngangas cumplimiento – please check grammar
- Oh dear, what happened here. It's a mess. I've reworded it so that it makes sense. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:25, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Is there any membership fee for being part of a house? Or how do the leaders sustain themselves?
- I suspect that there is a fee for initiation, as this is common in African diasporic traditions. House leaders may also offer ritual services to clients, again something common in related religions. It is also possible that they will have employment separate from their ritual tasks. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- A practitioner may later experience a second rayamiento, enabling them to become a full-ranking initiate of the praise house and thus create their own nganga. – Does this mean becoming "padre" or "madre" (terms that were used earlier)?
- Yes, I believe so. Do you think that we need to make this clear? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be a bit clearer if you use the same terms here (madre, padre) that you used earlier. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Will do! Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be a bit clearer if you use the same terms here (madre, padre) that you used earlier. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I believe so. Do you think that we need to make this clear? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:54, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- the Cuban anthropologist Lydia Cabrera studied made a study of Palo – remove one "study"
- Oops, yes, I was meant to delete the latter in my final read-through/edit before taking this to FAC. Removed now. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Palo is found all over Cuba, although is particularly strong in the island's eastern provinces. – "it" missing?
- I've added the "it" into the sentence. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Midnightblueowl: That's all from me. Fascinating article, and I expect to support this soon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jens Lallensack: I really appreciate you taking the time to read through the article and offer your thoughts on how to improve it. I'm glad that you found it interesting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, looks good! A few replies above. There is one point you did not yet reply to ("Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam"). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Oops, I was going to go back to that one and address it, but clearly forgot. I have now added a response. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, looks good! A few replies above. There is one point you did not yet reply to ("Salaam alaakem, malkem salaam"). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Jens Lallensack: I really appreciate you taking the time to read through the article and offer your thoughts on how to improve it. I'm glad that you found it interesting. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:06, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Support. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Support from Alavense
edit- It may be worth saying that ramas is Spanish for "branches".
- I've added this into the Definitions section. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- paleros if male, paleras in female
- Well spotted! Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- A similarly pejorative term embraced by some adherents is brujo (witch) - I think "witch" is generally only used to refer to women, whereas brujo is a masculine term.
- Historically, "witch" has been a gender neutral term in English, if one used more often for women than men. In some popular fiction from the last century or so we do see the term used only for women (in Harry Potter etc), but elsewhere (as in Wicca) we still see it used for both men and women. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Understood. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Historically, "witch" has been a gender neutral term in English, if one used more often for women than men. In some popular fiction from the last century or so we do see the term used only for women (in Harry Potter etc), but elsewhere (as in Wicca) we still see it used for both men and women. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- which has its origins among the secret male societies practiced among the Efik-Ibibio. - Maybe it would read more clearly if "which has its origins among the secret male societies and is practiced among the Efik-Ibibio".
- I've reworded this to the following: "which has its origins in the Ekpe society of West Africa's Efik-Ibibio peoples." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- It does. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've reworded this to the following: "which has its origins in the Ekpe society of West Africa's Efik-Ibibio peoples." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- it is sometimes said that they have "cruzar palo con cha" - That doesn't quite work, because cruzar is the infinitive, not the participle as in "crossed".
- I have amended the sentence to the following: "When an individual practises both Santería and Palo, it is sometimes said that they "cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha")." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not quite. So both they have "cruzado palo con cha" and they "cruzan palo con cha" would work, but not the way you have it now. If you want to avaoid that issue, rearranging the sentence might work: "Cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha") is a phrase used to indicate that an individual practises both Santería and Palo or something along those lines. Besides, why is it Ocha in the English translation? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've gone with your proposed latter wording; I've also added a brief explanation of the term Ocha, sourced to Hagedorn. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not quite. So both they have "cruzado palo con cha" and they "cruzan palo con cha" would work, but not the way you have it now. If you want to avaoid that issue, rearranging the sentence might work: "Cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha") is a phrase used to indicate that an individual practises both Santería and Palo or something along those lines. Besides, why is it Ocha in the English translation? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have amended the sentence to the following: "When an individual practises both Santería and Palo, it is sometimes said that they "cruzar palo con cha" ("cross Palo with Ocha")." Do you think that works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:25, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- The anthropologist Todd Ramón Ochoa, an initiate of Palo Briyumba, described Nsambi - I think "describes" would be better.
- Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Mama canata is the only term in which the second word is spelled in lowercase. Is this due to anything in particular?
- To be honest, I just don't know why this is the case. It is possible that it is an error in the original source that is cited; at the same time there may be a particular reason which I am unaware of. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think it's an important issue. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I just don't know why this is the case. It is possible that it is an error in the original source that is cited; at the same time there may be a particular reason which I am unaware of. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- with Kerestetzi observing that one of Palo's central features was its belief - Again, I think "is" would be more suitable. There are other instances of this.
- I've changed the tense here, and again at a later spot in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- rinconcito ("little corners") - rinconcito is singular.
- I've made the correction here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is casuela spelt like that in the sources?
- The two cited sources use different spellings: Kerestetzi uses casuela, Bettelheim instead uses cazuela. Is the latter spelling more appropriate? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I do think cazuela is more appropiate, yes. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- In that case I've made the change to cazuela. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I do think cazuela is more appropiate, yes. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- The two cited sources use different spellings: Kerestetzi uses casuela, Bettelheim instead uses cazuela. Is the latter spelling more appropriate? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- it is the divine itself[...] - A space is missing there.
- Sometimes, the bones of a criminal or mad person are deliberately sought - Why? It feels a bit counterintuitive, doesn't it?
- I'll need to double check if Ochoa actually offers an explanation; it would probably be out of a perception that these individuals are more dangerous and thus more useful in carrying out attacks on enemies etc, if that is what the palero or palera requires. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- The first time I read it, it felt a bit counterintuitive, so I think it would be better to explain a little further if the source allows it. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've checked the source (Ochoa) and it is apparent that these bones are used only for the un-baptised ngangas. That being the case, I've moved the sentence in question to the paragraph discussing those; I think it works much better there. Unfortunately, Ochoa still doesn't give an explicit reason why these bones would be favoured. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The first time I read it, it felt a bit counterintuitive, so I think it would be better to explain a little further if the source allows it. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll need to double check if Ochoa actually offers an explanation; it would probably be out of a perception that these individuals are more dangerous and thus more useful in carrying out attacks on enemies etc, if that is what the palero or palera requires. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is trata the word used in the sources?
- I'll be able to double-check these sources in a few days time but I would have taken the word directly from them, so the answer is almost certainly affirmative. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- You'll let me know, because I'd expect trato rather than trata. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've checked and Stefan Palmié uses trata. We could remove the term altogether and just use the English pact? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- You'll let me know, because I'd expect trato rather than trata. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll be able to double-check these sources in a few days time but I would have taken the word directly from them, so the answer is almost certainly affirmative. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- attempts to "cool" and settle them - Why use quotation marks for cool? There's more than one instance of this.
- I've added marks to indicate that these concepts of coolness and hotness are not literal references to temperature. It's a conceptual idea, stemming from West African traditional worldviews, with 'heat' as something that is associated with action, violence, motion, etc, and 'coolness' as conversely linked with peace, calm, etc. ;We could really do with a distinct article on this particular concept. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I see. In that case, wouldn't it be better to use italics? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've added marks to indicate that these concepts of coolness and hotness are not literal references to temperature. It's a conceptual idea, stemming from West African traditional worldviews, with 'heat' as something that is associated with action, violence, motion, etc, and 'coolness' as conversely linked with peace, calm, etc. ;We could really do with a distinct article on this particular concept. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- "cerré el pacto" literally means "I sealed the deal".
- I've reworded this sentence, as part of which I have taken out the Spanish words altogether. It is simpler to just convey the meaning in English. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:38, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- The human remains included in them is - Are?
- Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- it is said to be nacer - "it is said to nacer" would work, as it is in the infinitive.
- Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- that the power of nganga cristianas are - Is?
- I think "are" works better here, as we dealing with these spirit-vessels in the plural, although I'm happy to make a change if there is a general consensus that "is" would be more appropriate here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Shouldn't the verb agree with "power", though? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- In that case I've changed "power" to "powers". Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Shouldn't the verb agree with "power", though? Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think "are" works better here, as we dealing with these spirit-vessels in the plural, although I'm happy to make a change if there is a general consensus that "is" would be more appropriate here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Havana is not linked anywhere.
- I've added a wikinink in at the first mention.
- Munanso congo form familias de religion - I guess this will depend on the sources, but in standard Spanish religion is spelt with a tilde, religión.
- I'll make that change. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- mayordomo is Spanish for "steward" or "butler", in case you may want to add that.
- Good idea. Added. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Drawings called firmas, their name derived from the Spanish for "signature" - firmas is literally signatures, so can that be really said to be "derived"?
- I've changed "derived" to "taken from the", which hopefully deals with this issue. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- firmas's - firmas being plural, I guess it should be either "firmas'" or "firma's".
- Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- The creation of these drawings are - Is?
- Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is cumplimiento in the sources?
- Yes, it is definitely used in the Kerestetzi source; I don't have the Ochoa book to hand, but can check that in a few days time to see if that uses the same exact word. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've never seen cumplimiento used as "birthday", but if the source says so, no problem. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ochoa doesn't use the term cumplimiento so we could remove the word altogether if you think it is misleading in this context? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've never seen cumplimiento used as "birthday", but if the source says so, no problem. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, it is definitely used in the Kerestetzi source; I don't have the Ochoa book to hand, but can check that in a few days time to see if that uses the same exact word. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Animal sacrifice is thus a key part of Palo ritual, where it is known by the Spanish language term matanza - Maybe it ought to be said that matanza doesn't mean sacrifice.
- I have added "slaughter" in brackets after matanza here; hopefully that does the trick. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- It does. Thanks. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have added "slaughter" in brackets after matanza here; hopefully that does the trick. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:26, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- in the el Cuarto de religión - in el cuarto de religión, given that el already means "the". And I don't see why "Cuarto" has to be uppercase in any of the two instances.
- I've changed these both to lower case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Great, but in the el cuarto de religión should be in el cuarto de religión. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've changed these both to lower case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Students are instructed in Palo through stories, songs, and the recollections of elders; they will also watch their elders and seek to decipher the latter's riddles - What does "latter" refer to there?
- It refers to the elders; I can change this to "decipher their riddles" as that may be clearer. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think it might be, yes. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- It refers to the elders; I can change this to "decipher their riddles" as that may be clearer. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:22, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- "muertos oscuros entities" reads a bit weird. Maybe a comma after the parenthesis would do the trick.
- I've added a comma here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's nación in the singular but naciones, without the tilde, in the plural, not naciónes.
- Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- If Esteban Montejo is the one you are referring to, you can link the article.
- I did initially look at adding this link a while back but I am not 100 percent confident it is the same individual. Let me double-check Brandon's book (I'll be able to do this in a few days time) and try to ascertain whether it is or not. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- No problem at all with that. Don't include it if you are not sure. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've checked Brandon and yes, it is the same Esteban Montejo so I'll add the wikilink. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- No problem at all with that. Don't include it if you are not sure. Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I did initially look at adding this link a while back but I am not 100 percent confident it is the same individual. Let me double-check Brandon's book (I'll be able to do this in a few days time) and try to ascertain whether it is or not. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- cofradias should be cofradías.
- Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- placing their victim's bones in Palo cauldrons - If there were 14 people killed, then "victims'", no?
- Well spotted and corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is Louis Bertrand (saint) the saint you mention?
- Looks like it; thanks for the link. I've added the wikilink to the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- You could use {{ill}} to link Adiós Hemingway.
That's my lot. Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 18:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks, Alavense - it's been excellent to have someone with a good grasp of Spanish take a look at this article. As you can probably tell, my Spanish is not good at all. I've responded to all of your comments, although in a few cases I will have to consult Ochoa's book, which I should be able to do in a few days time. Thanks again. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your responses, Midnightblueowl. I've replied to a few above. Excellent work! Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Alavense. I think I have now addressed all of your concerns. I appreciate the time you have spent on this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the excellent work on this, it was an engaging read. I think you should just use the English pact and get rid of trata, as you say, and remove cumplimiento. The rest is looking great, so I'm going to go ahead and support already. Thank you very much and kind regards, Alavense (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Alavense. I think I have now addressed all of your concerns. I appreciate the time you have spent on this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for your responses, Midnightblueowl. I've replied to a few above. Excellent work! Kind regards, Alavense (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Mike Christie
edit- "It arose amid a process of syncretism": shouldn't this be "via" or "through", rather than "amid"?
- This is a bit of a tricky one. There are various scholarly debates on the validity of syncretism as a concept, although the term has long been heavily used in the study of African diasporic religions. My concern about "through" or "via" is that it might imply a simplistic idea that Palo = Kongo religion + Catholicism. The reality is more complex like that; Palo is a new religion that drew upon both Kongo religion and (to a lesser extent) Catholicism, but also made noted innovations of its own. My use of "amid" was an attempt to reflect that Palo emerges from the interaction of these religious traditions but is not just a product of one being stuck on to the other. Do you think there is a better way of phrasing this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- If there's some hesitancy about using the word "syncretism", it might be better to drop it, but it sounds like the sources use it enough that we need to reflect that. One thing that bothers me about the current formulation in the lead is that it doesn't have the nuances that you provide in your answer to me here; it reads as if "amid" is a poor word choice for "via", because it's not clear what it else it could mean for something to arise amid a process. Could you add some of that nuance to the statement in the lead? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- This is a bit of a tricky one. There are various scholarly debates on the validity of syncretism as a concept, although the term has long been heavily used in the study of African diasporic religions. My concern about "through" or "via" is that it might imply a simplistic idea that Palo = Kongo religion + Catholicism. The reality is more complex like that; Palo is a new religion that drew upon both Kongo religion and (to a lesser extent) Catholicism, but also made noted innovations of its own. My use of "amid" was an attempt to reflect that Palo emerges from the interaction of these religious traditions but is not just a product of one being stuck on to the other. Do you think there is a better way of phrasing this? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've changed the sentence to the following: "It draws heavily upon the traditional Kongo religion of Central Africa, with additional influences taken from the Roman Catholic branch of Christianity and from Spiritism." That evades the "syncretism" term altogether; do you think it works okay? Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- "A key ingredient are sticks, called palos, which are selected from specific species of tree": suggest "Sticks, called palos, are key ingredients; palos are selected from specific species of tree" to avoid the awkward singular subject with plural verb.
- Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK, but now I realize that "specific species" is a little ugly. Perhaps "certain species"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- "Soil from various locations is added, for instance from a graveyard, hospital, prison, and a market, as may water from": this sort of parallel constructions requires "is ... is" or "may ... may" if the verb is to be avoided, but the sense here won't allow that. How about "Soil from various locations is added, for instance from a graveyard, hospital, prison, and a market, and water may also be added, from sources such as ..."
- Looks good, I'll make that change. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, another point here too -- should those lists end with "or", rather than "and"? They're not adding soil from a graveyard and also from a prison and also ... are they? And the same for the water? If they are, that's not clear. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Looks good, I'll make that change. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sometimes a single nganga may contain soil from various locations so I have tried to reword the sentence to better reflect that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
"the more significant they are often regarded": suggest "the more significant they are often considered to be".- That works well. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"The senior practitioner creating the nganga may ask a madre or padre to assist them, something considered a great privilege": this comes before we have said what madre and padre refer to.- I've changed this sentence to the following: "The senior practitioner creating the nganga may ask a high-ranking initiate to assist them, something considered a great privilege." Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"will divine to ensure that everything is going okay": "okay" is a bit colloquial for encyclopedic tone; how about "going well"?- Agreed and changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"the tata or yayi may not tell the padre/madre": do you mean they are not permitted to tell, or it is possible that they will not tell? I think the latter but it's not clear. If I'm right, how about "may choose not to tell"?- The latter is indeed correct, and your suggested wording makes things much clearer. I've made the change in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"Styles of drumming that have been transmitted within Palo include the ritmas congos and influencias bantu." Without either an explanation of the styles or a translation of the words this doesn't really tell the reader anything.- I've reworded the sentence to the following: "Various styles of drumming have been transmitted within Palo, including the ritmas congos ("Congo rhythms") and influencias bantu ("Bantu influences")." While I think that this sits better in the paragraph, it perhaps does not really respond to your main point. We could remove the sentence altogether, although readers with a particular interest in ethnomusicology or drumming may find this material interesting; I suppose it possible that one day we might have articles on these particular drumming styles. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- No, I think that's fine -- the reader has at least a tidbit of information about the styles. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've reworded the sentence to the following: "Various styles of drumming have been transmitted within Palo, including the ritmas congos ("Congo rhythms") and influencias bantu ("Bantu influences")." While I think that this sits better in the paragraph, it perhaps does not really respond to your main point. We could remove the sentence altogether, although readers with a particular interest in ethnomusicology or drumming may find this material interesting; I suppose it possible that one day we might have articles on these particular drumming styles. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"On arriving in Cuba, many enslaved Bakongo people would have brought their traditional religions with them": suggest "Many of the enslaved Bakongo people who arrived in Cuba would have brought their traditional religions with them" - there's no connection to the moment of arrival.- Good idea. Changed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
"The histories of these objects in Cuba is unclear": number mismatch between "histories" and "is".- I've changed "histories" to "history". Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Have any estimates been made of the number of adherents, in Cuba or elsewhere?- Not that I've seen, unfortunately. That would be just the sort of information that I would want in the Demographics section; the situation is a little better for Santería, but generally we lack good numerical estimates for African diasporic religions. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Generally this is in great shape and I expect to support once these minor points are addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:43, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie: thank you so much for giving this article a read through. I hope that you found it interesting and it is definitely stronger as a result of your comments. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Mostly struck; a couple of replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:45, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Mike. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Mike Christie: thank you so much for giving this article a read through. I hope that you found it interesting and it is definitely stronger as a result of your comments. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Source review
editReliability-wise, I decided to inspect Ochoa 2010 and Espírito Santo, Diana; Kerestetzi, Katerina; Panagiotopoulos, Anastasios (2013) a bit more closely because they seem to be the most used sources here. On the former this review seems approbatory although it notes it was written by a practicioner? This one is more neutral but doesn't raise many questions about reliability. This one I can see only piecemeal. Todd Ramón Ochoa doesn't have much of a footprint but barring impersonation it seems like they have good credentials. On the latter, not much about the paper itself but the authors seem to have written a number of articles around this field. TLDR nothing that jumps out as unreliable. I notice though that of the sources, they seem to be pretty US-centric. Source formatting seems consistent and nothing jumps out to me as unsuitable, although I wonder if the few news media sources could be replaced. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look, Jo-Jo Eumerus. The US-centrism of the sources is probably reflective of the topic in general. This is a North American religion and I've only used English-language sources; it's inevitable that most of the scholarly literature in that language is therefore going to be American. Regarding Ochoa, it is true that he is a practitioner, although that should not undermine his work as a source, given that he is also a professional anthropologist and his study has been published by a respected academic press. Scholars who are simultaneously practitioners are a common feature in religious studies (the entire field of theology comprises nothing but practitioner-scholars) and in a case like Palo, which is an initiatory tradition, an initiate/practitioner is the only person who is going to be in a position capable of collecting much of the pertinent information. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, my impression is that this religion is originally Cuban, where to my understanding the main language is Spanish. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- But English sources will have more distance to the topic, and could therefore be more neutral, so relying on them is not necessarily bad, no? Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but in practice I think completeness would suffer a lot. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- But English sources will have more distance to the topic, and could therefore be more neutral, so relying on them is not necessarily bad, no? Jens Lallensack (talk) 07:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, my impression is that this religion is originally Cuban, where to my understanding the main language is Spanish. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Prose review by SilverTiger
editThis is a terrible, no-good idea, since I'm dealing with both depression and a hurricane headed for my city, but if I were a reasonable person I wouldn't be editing Wikipedia. So let's get this started.
- Overall: the lede badly needs an image or sidebar of some kind. The article as a whole needs more images and stuff to relieve the dense prose.
- A lede image would be great, but we just don't have anything appropriate over at Wikimedia Commons. There are images of ngangas circulating online, but on the whole there are not a lot given that this is a fairly closed, initiatory religion. Barring a Palo practitioner photographing their nganga or other elements of their ritual practice, the only other images we could potentially use would be some of the ritual drawings used in the religion. Perhaps we could replicate some of those for usage at the article? Do we have any editors who are good at that and willing to do it? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- What English variant is this written in? Just asking for clarity and to check for consistency.
- It would make sense to use American English, as we are dealing with a religion from the North American continent. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Lede
- It arose amid a process of syncretism between.. This is clunky wording. I suggest rephrasing, perhaps to "It originated from a syncretism of..."
- I'm currently discussing this above, in conversation with Mike Christie, so feel free to chime in there. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Is there somewhere to link initiatory religion?
- I can't see any relevant articles at Wikipedia, but it might be worth someone producing one at some point. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if there's a reasonable way to fix this, but I initially thought the creator deity was called "Nsambi or Sambia", rather than what you meant, "Nsambi, also called Sambia"
- That's a good point. I've cut Sambia from the lead altogether and changed that wording to "commonly called Nsambi,". Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
To be continued... SilverTiger12 (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to read the article, SilverTiger12. I hope the hurricane did not prove too destructive. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The hurricane has not yet arrived; thus far the only casualties are the grocery stores' shelves. As for this article, it has proved a fascinating read. SilverTiger12 (talk) 22:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)