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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pied butcherbird/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2017 [1].

Pied butcherbird

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Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:44, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Australia's finest songbird - pretty haunting and weird calls it makes. I have scoured sources and it reads well so have at it. Cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:44, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Pbsouthwood

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Images appropriate and all appear to be correctly licensed. Mostly without alt text. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 17:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Aa77zz

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I'll add comments as I read the article.
Lead

  • link mantle
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • neck is white - it doesn't appear to be.
its the nape that is black forming the hood and there is a white neck collar below that. Better seen in the gould painting in article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

  • link type specimen
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gould described Cracticus picatus in 1848..." I found this slightly difficult to follow and initially wondered why you were taking about another species - perhaps need some sort of intro on subspecies/regional variants
I did this but are you worried it is too repetitive? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link Gregory Mathews
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link nominate subspecies
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link subspecies
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • (3.7 cm wide) {{cvt|3.7|cm}}
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • perhaps link mitochondrial
even better, linked to mitochondrial DNA instead Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Description

  • "with short wings" followed by "The wings are fairly long"
removed Amadon's comment on wings Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:39, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The neck collar in the female is slightly narrower at around 25 cm (10 in)" 2.5 cm?
oops...fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:40, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- Aa77zz (talk) 10:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Distribution and habitat

  • link Illawarra
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Breeding

  • Who builds the nest? HBW alive has "Nest built by female". (I can send you the HBW text - but I personally prefer HANZAB (Higgins) (I don't own a copy), as it includes cites to the primary literature)
HANZAB does not explicitly specify but talks about the pair building a nest at one point. Will try to see if anything further online Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:05, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea where HBWQ got their info as no peer-reviewed literature seems to be out there supporting or refuting this. Same with incubation (though I do think that is more likely to be true.) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:03, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing looks very likely in the HBW article Bibliography. I've come across similar cases before - the HBW author probably thought that he had read it somewhere but with 10,000 articles it perhaps isn't surprising. When the sexes are similar I assume a study using coloured bands is required. - Aa77zz (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who incubates the eggs? HBW alive has "incubation by female alone"
HANZAB does not explicitly specify except to say "one adult", but one source said two adults out of four attending the nest incubated. Difficult when plumage is so similar. I will chase that source soon added that source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:05, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • use cvt for egg dimensions (bizarrely we usually include inches)
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:49, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • For how long are the young fed after leaving the nest. HBW alive has "at least a month"
HANZAB has anywhere from 25 to 33 days Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:05, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • mention brood parasitism (it will please Jim): HBW alive has "Records of brood parasitism by Pallid Cuckoo (Cuculus pallidus) and Channel-billed Cuckoo (Scythrops novaehollandiae)."
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:49, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:51, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- Aa77zz (talk) 13:11, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Taxonomy

  • "and combined them into a Cracticini clade,[13] which became the family Artamidae in 1994.[14]" I don't like the precise date without specifying who - Christidis and Boles may have made the change in 1994 but other authorities didn't. Taxonomy is always messy. Vol 14 of HBW published in 2009 followed Peters and placed butcherbirds in their own family Cracticidae and Clements still does (in their 2017 list). HBW changed the family to Artamidae in their Illustrated Checklist published in 2016 and didn't make the change online until this year. HBW online have a subfamily Cracticinae containing the genera Strepera, Melloria, Gymnorhina and Cracticus.
Sigh...this opens up a can of worms really as detailed discussion is best left on higher taxon pages. Let me think about it. Open to suggestions... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:54, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Description

  • " weight of 120 g (4 oz)." -> weight of about 120 g (4 oz). (HBW has weight varying from 105 to 159g)
done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

- Aa77zz (talk) 15:57, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with the responses and have supported above. Well done - excellent work. - Aa77zz (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support and comments from Jim

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I'll support this now, since I'm going on holiday soon, just a few minor issues Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:00, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • captions and maps should not include the subject of the article
removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • its smaller size than the nominate subspecies, and subspecies mellori from Victoria and South Australia on the basis of its larger size than the nominate subspecies.— I'm sure this can be rephrased less clunkily and repetitively
reworded Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both are regarded—missing "now"?
added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • baby grey teal.—"duckling" is better
reworded Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from FunkMonk

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  • I'll review this soon. At first glance, maybe the image selection could be improved? The article has no good photos of the bird in profile, but here are some:[2][3][4] There is also one of a juvenile[5], but perhaps the one you have of an immature is better. FunkMonk (talk) 18:04, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the two flickr ones by Graham Winterflood are both subsp. picatus, so a good find. One has been added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gould described Cracticus picatus in 1848 from northern Australia, describing it as" Perhaps say "named" the first time for variation?
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was reclassified as a subspecies of C. nigrogularis" When and by who?
not sure yet...it happened pretty early on... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The latter subspecies has a broader (3.7 cm (1.5 in) wide) white collar and a more whitish rump, with specimens becoming smaller in the more northern parts of the range." Usually it seems physical description between subspecies are mention in the description section?
in two minds. Putting it where it is helps explain what is different about the subspecies (and hence makes it valid) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When and why was it moved to Cracticus?
It happened quickly as by 1848 Gould had put them in the current genus, but I can't find discussion of where, when or why. Vanga was clearly an initial placement that was wrong but early on genera could be really broad.. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Darwin woollybutt" That's a funny name...
yes, it is Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and billabongs" Could be linked or explained, I don't think this term is well-known outside Australia.
linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "call of an Australian pied butcherbird" Why stress it was Australian if this is an Australian endemic?
agree - removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On this note, I'm not sure why a section about bird-song has to do with depictions? Cultural significance maybe?
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "defend their territory from intruders and mobbing and chasing raptors and other birds" Seems there is a grammar problem here maybe? "And mob and chase raptors and other birds"?
tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:39, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you only give scientific names for plants in parenthesis, and not animals (apart form nest-parasites)? Would probably look better if it was consistent throughout.
aligned Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "picatus" mean?
It's not in my Classical Latin dictionary at home - it means "daubed with pitch", hence "black patches" (in Late Latin I think). The two sources to support it are an 1844 book or a website from (notable) dictionaries....@FunkMonk: which source would you prefer I use...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:18, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I'd prefer a book, but the website is more accessible... So I think either would work. FunkMonk (talk) 14:26, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
added book ref now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:07, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and were sharing incubating duties." Double "ing" may seem a bit repetitive, how about "sharing incubation duties"? Or "shared incubating duties"?
fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "form a black saddle." Only described as a "saddle" in the intro, struck me as odd...
removed as doesn't really add anything Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The colour of juvenile and immature birds, which are accompanied by their parents, is predominantly brown and white." Not sure what the insert sentence means? Is this mixing behaviour with description? Kind of unclear.
removed - relic of old edit. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:51, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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In general, sources are fine – of appropriate quality and consistently formatted. Despite my best endeavours I could find little to grumble at, apart from a couple of very minor niggles: ref 30, since it links to an online copy of the article, should have a retrieval date. And ref 45 should also have a retrieval date, since the source is a website. Nothing else. Brianboulton (talk) 18:01, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

added (dammit I hate when I miss these on the watchlist! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 15:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: I notice that the images currently have no alt text. While alt text is not an explicit requirement at FA, I always feel that we should demonstrate best practice. But it isn't worth holding up promotion over. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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