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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Raya and the Last Dragon/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 9 November 2023 [1].

Raya and the Last Dragon

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Nominator(s): Wingwatchers (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2021 Disney film. After it became GA back in 2021, I revisited it and significantly expanded and revised it, adding/writing the Development and design, Animation and cinematography, and Themes as well as rewriting and restructuring the Critical Response section.Wingwatchers (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks and such like

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Pamzeis

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I helped out a tiny bit getting this article to GA-status. I will try not to screw any of this review up. I'm excited to see it back at FAC and hope it will attain FA-status, but there's one glaring issue that sticks out to me at the moment. The #Themes section is cited almost entirely to one source, which, IMHO, can not represent "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature", as per 1c of the FA criteria. This also brings into question issues of WP:DUE weight, which gives rise to concerns about neutrality. I randomly googled this film on Google Scholar and there seems to be a lot of stuff published that could be added. Of course, all of could be fluff not worth adding, but the coverage of the stuff in the International Journal of English and Applied Linguistics should at least be trimmed, as to not seem excessive. I'm opposing based on concerns regarding 1c and 1d at the moment, but I haven't read the article in detail yet (which I hope to do soon, maybe by Friday), so I'm hoping for that to change. You've obviously worked very hard on this article and I can see a lot of expansion since it became a GA. Pamzeis (talk) 15:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamzeis The themes section supposed to talk about thematic analysis and I am confident that I have address them in-depth. If you can only put the keyword themes in Google Scholar you will discover there are no other studies about its themes. The film, unlike other films, primarily deals with trust and that's it. Since no further journals are published regarding themes are in circulation past 2021, there will not likely to be any further studies of it. Wingwatchers (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think its due weight; its an in-depth analysis of her trust issues written in a character development style. Removing any will damage the prose and contextual structure, although it might appear to be visually Due weight and be mistaken so. Wingwatchers (talk) 15:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply, but I have to disagree. There is no way one source can represent the majority opinion/analysis of this film, meaning this article can not be neutral. A source does not need to explicitly mention the word "themes" to be an insightful analysis. Trust is Raya's main theme, but there do seem to be some underlying themes within the film. I've looked through a few sources, and there seems to be some stuff worth adding. For example, this article talks about how Raya is an evolution of Disney's "Princess" image of something (I mean, I didn't read it in full so.......). This one talks about how the film uses cultural elements to convey... something. There seems A LOT worth adding, though I'm not sure which is high quality and which isn't. Other than that, the #Themes section consists mostly of the plot, which the reader should already know. There's a lot of stuff you can trim, e.g. When Raya's father, Chief Benja, invited the other tribes to Heart, a young Raya befriended a young Namaari, princess of Fang. Raya believed Namaari was a good friend for giving her a gift and showed her the Dragon Gem, but Namaari's friendly demeanor turned out to be a deceptive attempt to steal the Dragon Gem for Fang. Raya trusted Namaari as her friend, but Namaari betrayed their friendship. This emotionally hurt Raya and caused her to begin to distrust others, illustrating how betrayal can act as a trigger for trust issues. Pamzeis (talk) 03:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis I don't know. I thought the Themes section is only supposed to talk about themes, and I don't know that it must also examine minors aspects as well. I suppose I will withdraw for now and add them or maybe we can wait three days for me if anyone don't mind for me to look into and add the top 10 journals. Wingwatchers (talk) 04:20, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis Yh, so I ask for 3 days to revise that section. In the meantime maybe you guys can read/review the production or critical response sections, which I wrote in 5 days.Wingwatchers (talk) 04:43, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I going to work on it quietly in my sandbox. Wingwatchers (talk) 04:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have trimmed down the Due weight english journal and I will began adding on the others. Wingwatchers (talk) 05:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Progress Check: I have trimmed it down and added the "Semiotic Analysis of Women's Representation in the Animated Disney Film Raya and The Last Dragon." Wingwatchers (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis Done, there. I trimmed it down and added the two journals. Wingwatchers (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis Ok I added a lot of journals and I think I have addressed all of your above concerns. Wingwatchers (talk) 18:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's great! Yet I still have an issue with the section ATM (I know, I know, I'm sorry): it's organised without any particular structure and just split up into paragraphs of each scholar. Could the bits on similar themes be grouped together? This could help provide further insight on how each scholar interprets different themes. I feel like WP:RECEPTION might be a good guide for this (I know this isn't a reception section but.......). Pamzeis (talk) 04:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis I have rearranged them accordingly. Wingwatchers (talk) 04:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm.... I was referring more to grouping text on similar bits together, e.g. putting "Sisu assists Raya by challenging her beliefs and encouraging her to trust again" and "Sisu imparts a powerful lesson about the transformative impact of trust, showing how a simple act of faith can bridge immense gaps" together because they both discuss Sisu's contributions to the theme of trust. Otherwise, we don't really get how different scholar's analyses tie into one another, if that makes sense I feel like Groundhog Day (film)#Thematic analysis might be a good example. Pamzeis (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pamzeis How's now? Wingwatchers (talk) 05:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks better at a cursory glance. Striking my oppose; will review this article when I have enough time. Pamzeis (talk) 06:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, beginning my review. Will try not to screw anything up.
  • "Dealing with the themes of trust, forgiveness, and reconciliation, the film is inspired by traditional Southeast Asian cultures." — I'm not sure how these two ideas are related to each other? I think it would better to discuss its themes later on in the lead
Removed
  • "It used complex and intricate design and animation processes, focusing on its diverse environments and characters." — this sentence reads very awkwardly to me... can it be reworded?
Dobe
  • "and Jhené Aiko wrote and performed a song in the end credits" — is Aiko's (relatively obscure) song worthy of a mention in the lead? The article devotes around two sentences to it
Removed
  • I find it a bit confusing that the casting information is in the "Conception" section, since casting isn't usually a part of that process; it's also confusing given "Development and design" is right after, and that comes before casting
Removed conception
  • "the same spirits as the character" — what are the "spirits" of a character??

Well just emotional spirit, i.e. the general character and spirit

  • "and that Tran was better suited for the role." — how so?
  • "Tran learned not to trust the production team because she had unsuccessfully auditioned for the role of Raya." — I'm not sure I understand this sentence... how does one "learn not to trust" someone? Why would she "learn not to trust" the team because she'd unsuccessfully auditioned for a role? Isn't that something that happens to actors all the time?

Removed the learn not to trust part; yes it happens all the time

  • "she assumed that Disney had already rejected her before but was now hiring her to replace the lead actress." — isn't that- isn't that what happened?

yh this part is trying to express that Tran previously unsuccessful auditioned for the role but they later decided to admit her

  • "Southeast Asia Story Trust" — any explanation for what this is??

It is already specified that is a group of experts ensuring authentic representation

  • "Designing Kumandra's five fractured lands was challenging, and the designers approached this by designing" — "designing", "designers", "designing" is kinda repetitive
Reworded
  • "Designing Kumandra's five fractured lands was challenging, and the designers approached this by designing them with unique climates and characteristics to reflect the diverse beliefs and culture of their people, with each land and its people representing a mandala icon revolving around Kumandra, inspired by the religious, cultural principles teaching that everything is centered around a common belief sys­tem or cosmology." — this is a very long sentence, so some the information in it gets lost; can it be split?
  • Split
  • "Kaumdra's Dragon River is inspired" — is there a typo in there?

Fixed

  • "who perform flawlessly and Sisu who does everything sideways" — "perform" should be in a different tense, but I'm not sure I understand this bit. What does Raya perform?? And what does "does everything sideways mean??

Just perform in general; changed to act

  • "Emphasis was placed to make Raya" — wording seems a bit awkward

Changed

  • "The poses of the stone, petrified dragons" — is there a missing word or something in there?

Changed to statues

  • "Their footsteps radiate" — the designers' or the dragons'?

dragons

  • "They approached the dragons' designs based on their glowing characteristics and fluid grooms and textures" — aren't "glowing characteristics and fluid grooms and textures" design elements in themselves? How would the designers approach the designs based on them?

Fixed

  • "with a dynamic form that is difficult to be perceived as one continuous form" — this reads a bit off to me...

added cloudy for clarity

  • "their conceptions include aquatic life" — not sure whether "conceptions" is the right word to use here

changed to concepts

  • "Heart set the tone for the other land" — the other lands?

Removed

  • "While researching these flowers, they were inspired by an art installation involving lamps that would grow stronger and dimmer based on a person's location to create the Kumandra flowers, which light up when the Dragon Gem, symbolic of hope, was near; illustrating an important theme in the story." — this sentence is a bit clunky, and there's a least one punctuational error, I think

Fixed

  • "They approached Talon's design" — who is "they"??

Clarified

  • "approaching its design" — who is approaching its design?

Fixed

  • "Spine's snowy, black bamboo which becomes a deep blue with maroon hints when hit color scheme creates a striking visual contrast that greatly enhances its grand atmosphere." — ...what? I can't make out what this sentence is saying :P

Fixed

  • "her tough personality, referencing the geometric shapes of Fang for silhouette and patterning." — makes it sound like her tough personality is referencing the geometric shapes (which I assume is not the case)

Changed to reflect

  • "draped, soft, and blue ... feel" — what does this bit mean? How does one have a "blue" feel??

added designs behind it

  • "human-touched and emotional resonance effects" — I'm not sure what this means and there might be a grammatical error in there

shadow puppet style; fixed error I got up to the start of #Animation and cinematography so far. More to come... Pamzeis (talk) 04:08, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • As a general point, there are several grammatical issues throughout the article. I'd advise you re-read it and fix any that you notice
  • "Raya and the Last Dragon uses partial traditional animation to create unique a unique style of warmth, imperfection, and distinctiveness that set them apart from conventional CG animations, incorporating a flattened look resembling shadow puppets similar to those used in Chinese storytelling with human-touched quality and emotional resonance effects." — I think this should be reworded. It's very confusing for me to read

Reworded

  • "They draped the characters' wrapped garments by deftly folding long panels of cloth" — is "draped" necessary? Doesn't it mean wrapped?

Drape is fine

  • "with little to no reliance on seams to hold the structure rather than using the traditional standard pattern-based pipelines approach, making the process exceptionally challenging." — so what did they use instead of seams and pipelines?

Reworded

  • "To overcome the obstacle posed by casting and choreographing a sheer diversity of characters" — this reads clunkily to me and I'm not sure "a sheer diversity of characters" makes sense

Reworded

  • "a novel modular approach of strategic element reuse" — I'm not sure I know what this bit is saying... can it be reworded?

Reworded

  • "A tracking system ensured asset validation and efficient use of the data downstream, and collaborative and overall enhanced workflow between departments enabled the team to creatively and efficiently generate mass crowd assets." — this sentence feels unnecessarily wordy and over-complicated. I'm not sure if it's just super technical but I feel it needs a bit of copy-editing

Copyedited

  • "distance integral invariant for detecting dragon foot contacts" — ditto

Simply to say its some sort of mathematical/animation technique in animation to detect contacts

  • "Recreating Sisu in" — recreating?? When was she first created?

Changed to creating

  • "Despite Tail's sparse landscape, it is complex" — it was?

Fixed

  • "with added complexities from cracks which had to be modeled by hand and scattered elements of rocks and vegetation" — also feels kinda wordy and clunky

Reworded

  • "For example, a distrustful Raya was shot with a wide lens, deep focus, and a narrow color palette, while a trusting Sisu" — shouldn't it be the distrustful Raya and the trusting Sisu?

Fixed

  • "To emphasize the abrupt transition when Raya was thrown into the blue waters of the Dragon River in Heart to the scene six years later in Tail's harsh desert" — this isn't mentioned in the plot AFAIK so I'm unsure what we're talking about here. It also feels really, really wordy

Fixed

  • "and argued for a more culturally" — I don't think they can argue *for* something it this case. More like ask for?

Changed to advocated for

  • "ranging from toys and merchandise" — to...?

toys to merchandise

I think the article overall needs a bit of a copy edit from a subject-matter expert to deal with the more technical elements. I'm not finished reading it yet but I'll hopefully finish my review soon. Pamzeis (talk) 11:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pamzeis: Hopefully it is more clear and concise now. Wingwatchers (talk) 14:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really sorry for this, but I feel the need to oppose this one again, as I feel like the prose is not up to the FA-standard. There are several issues:

  • There are many bits that have awkward/clunky wording, e.g.
    • "However, they felt that there was something lacking and incomplete in their designs, and they realized the importance of designing them together, helping them better understand how they complemented each other both visually and thematically."
    • "They explored many silhouettes and attitudes of Sisu"
    • "they consulted with the Trust to help maintain her fantastical and unique characteristics while also addressing cultural customs and beliefs"
    • "They skillfully draped the characters' garments by deftly folding long panels of cloth"
    • "Added complexities arose from the manually modeling of cracks and the scattering of rocks and vegetation elements throughout the scene"
  • There are a few basic grammatical issues throughout the article as well.
  • I'm not a big fan of the way the themes section is done. A lot of paragraphs are still attributed to only one source and I feel like the article doesn't touch on the more in-depth analysis scholars have done
  • I feel like the article also has a few bits throughout, especially in #Production, that don't sound entirely neutral and paint Raya out to be unique, special film. It's not a huge concern, but it's there so.......

Again, I'm sorry for opposing, but I really feel the prose is not up to the standard expected. I think this article would benefit from an in-depth copy edit from someone who knows a thing or two about animation, and that #Thematic analysis could use a bit of tinkering. This article is certainly a very good article, but it definitely needs some major adjustments IMO. Pamzeis (talk) 12:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I see I have rephrased many of the above examples. I will rework the production and theme section. The Animation section stems from technical tone influence from the source; in the Themes section rather than focusing on the characters' themes they decided to studied the more underlying Southeast Asian inspiration and cultural aspects instead of the actual themes, which is why I struggled to merge them. I have fixed the basic grammatical issues appearing throughout the article and will take a critical look at.
I will take a critical look at it. Wingwatchers (talk) 14:07, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Give me a couple of days.... Wingwatchers (talk) 15:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are all fixed. @Pamzeis What do you think? Wingwatchers (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
Done. Wingwatchers (talk) 23:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Chompy Ace

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Done
  • Per MOS:ACCLAIMED, "critical acclaim" must be removed, since the film received a few sources about the term.
Removed
  • The last paragraph in #Themes_and_analysis is short, so merge or expand.
Removed.
  • Archive all archivable sources.
  • Film and television titles should be italicized per MOS:CONFORMTITLE.
I believed they are all one.
Replaced
  • Date styling in source editor is inconsistent. Must be Month X, Day Y, Year Z, in all instances.
Guess its all done?

More to come... Chompy Ace 21:32, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Working... Wingwatchers (talk) 14:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the second round of comments regarding the monotonous use of the same word at the beginning of each sentence (two or more):

  • "The film was simultaneously available on Disney+ Premier Access due to the pandemic's effects on theaters. The film became the third-most-streamed film of 2021, and grossed $130.4 million worldwide (excluding its Disney+ Premier Access revenue). The film received generally positive reviews; critics praised the imagery and depth, and they criticized the story and limited Southeast Asian representation."
  • "The reassembled gem unleashes a shockwave that spreads throughout Kumandra, vanquishes all the Druun and conjures up a magical rainstorm which revives everyone, alongside all the dragons who later revive Sisu. The group reunites with their loved ones; the tribes and dragons gather at Heart to unify as Kumandra once again."
  • "The filmmakers focused the core of the film on Raya and Sisu, and their conflicting characteristics of trust issues and over-trusting acted as the basis for the film's humor and emotion. The visual development team initially designed the characters separately, drawing various designs of Raya and Sisu."
  • "They designed her with feminine nose and strong, prominent cheekbones qualities and her outfit based on traditional sabai top and dhoti pants with cultural dragon references; her high-collar cape and large hat acted as protective layers that the filmmakers intended to remove as she emotionally evolves with the film.[35][36] They aimed to make Raya exceptionally expressive and emotionally diverse, focusing on her playful and comedic aspects."
  • "The poses of the stone, petrified dragons represents the designers' efforts to convey the same sense of grandeur, reverence, and awe-inspiring presence that dragons have in Southeast Asian culture.[40] The dragons' footsteps radiate colorful, refracted ripples of light to emphasize their cultural association with water."
  • "The designers explored stretching Fang buildings and incorporating repeated rooflines to evoke the ominous sensation of a large creature peering down. The Fang Palace include tall, verti­cal banners and giant gold fang-like sculptures hang ominously from sky­ high ceilings."
  • "This transition preserves the original purpose of epic storytelling and imparting moral teachings while simultaneously rejuvenating and alleviating the saturation of the traditional arts. This integration results in captivating narratives, visually appealing presentations, and rich audio, as well as engaging the senses, stimulating the imagination, and evoking emotional responses."
  • "Raya and the Last Dragon deals with the theme of trust, forgiveness, and reconciliation.[2][83] Raya learned not to trust anyone in the story's broken world, while her father and Sisu, the last dragon, believed that the broken world only exists because people do not trust one another."

Chompy Ace 21:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Chompy Ace All Done except for "Raya and the Last Dragon deals with the theme of trust, forgiveness, and reconciliation.[2][83] Raya learned not to trust anyone in the story's broken world, while her father and Sisu, the last dragon, believed that the broken world only exists because people do not trust one another." I repeated broken world here for consistency. Wingwatchers (talk) 01:44, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good to go! So Support! Chompy Ace 02:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment. This has been open for almost a month now. I'm afraid I have to agree with Pamzeis on the article currently not meeting FA standards. They have provided you more than enough examples on why the prose is not up to scratch yet, and I'm sure that the list above is not exhaustive. I don't want to encourage a constant back-and-forth as this will lead to a fix loop, which FAC is not the place for. To verify the prose issues, I took a quick look at the thematic analysis sections and found things that bugged me. For example, "Scholars mainly focused on analyzing Raya and the Last Dragon's trust issues and feminism themes." At first it reads as if the scholars analyzed the film's trust issues, which is not possible. Also, I think "focused on" is redundant when "mainly" will do the job. Another sentence that gave me a pause was the next one: "...her friend, Namaari, deceived her for the Dragon Gem, leading her to overreact and distance herself from others." I would say that deception by a friend is a big deal and I'm not sure that her actions would count as an overreaction. This needs to be conveyed better.

So with these issues in mind, I'm archiving this nomination. I suggest that you locate an independent copyeditor to help tighten the prose and maybe work with Pamzeis outside the FAC venue to rectify the issues, and bring it back after a few weeks. FrB.TG (talk) 08:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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