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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ride the Lightning/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 01:16, 15 September 2016 [1].

Ride the Lightning

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Nominator(s): Retrohead (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Metallica's sophomore studio album. I think it satisfies the FA criteria and I hope to get it promoted.--Retrohead (talk) 17:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Maunus

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Thanks for bringing this article to review. I have read through it and I think the article is quite good, well cited and fairly comprehensive.

I think the language is at times a little terse and condensed - and that sometimes more elaboration and description could be added. For example the way that Fade to Black made several fans react negatively to the record and accuse them of having sold out could be elaborated, also the event where Hetfield felt uncomfortable singing seems to need some explanation (why would he be uncomfortable singing? and what happened when John Bush declined? Maybe Eglinton's biography of Hetfield has information on this?), also where they declined the offer from Bronze records (apparently Gerry Bron hated Rasmussens work and wanted the entire record to be rerecorded and mixed in the states! [described at some length in "Metallica: The Music and the Mayhem" by Dome and Wall (2011)]). Also there is some jargon (A&R people).

Thanks for the notes and your time reading the article. I've made corrections on the Hetfiled/Bush issue. Apparently Hetfield was not confident with performing double duty on vocals and guitar, but eventually gained confidence and the band moved on. If it reads unclear with the recent changes in the prose, let me know what to correct. Also thanks for expanding on the label issue in the same section. Made some c/e to be consistent with referring the band in singular.

I also think that the music and lyrics section could be elaborated with attention to each song, and perhaps with dedicated summary style subsections for those tracks that have their own articles (Fade to Black, Creeping Death and For Whom the Bell Tolls). Dome and Wall appears to have detailed descriptions of all of the songs - describing for example Mustaine's influence and Hetfield's vocals on the title track (enough, I think, to write an article specifically about this track). Certainly there is more to write about the music and lyrics of this groundbreaking album.

Each song has musical/lyrical analysis. I have a slight reservation about using lines from the book you cited such as "Mustaine has a real feel for melody" or "the music never goes far over the top" because the authors are mixing facts with opinions. I've used only facts in this section, such as tempos, lyrical meaning, etc.
I dont think you should use lines from the authors, but paraphrase them in a more encyclopedic style. And the authors of sources are allowed to state their opinions, and we can represent their opinions, as long as we attribute them as such. I think that at least a full paragraph about each song is necessary to make the section completely comprehensive.
Fair enough, I've used segments for "Escape", which had the smallest description, and I'll see what else can be incorporated.

At the same time, I think that some of the evaluations of the record should be more directly attributed - for example I am a little iffy at mentioning twice in Wikipedias voice that the record exhibited "greater musical maturity". I think this is a subjective evaluation and should be attributed either as a a general "critics have described" (if that is supported by the source) or by naming the specific critic(s) (McIver?) who have made this evaluation.

Replaced maturity with growth. About addressing the author, virtually all critics agree that Ride the Lightning is a more mature effort than Metallica's debut, which makes that claim a fact. Adding "critics think that" to "Ride the Lightning exhibited greater musical maturity, with sonically broader songs" is not that necessary for me.
I disagree about that. That several critics share an opinion does not make the opinion fact. Some kinds of evaluations will always be opinions and never facts - for example which album is better or "more mature" whatever that means - these are inherently subjective evaluations.
Alright, presented it as journalists' opinion.

Not being familiar with literature on Heavy Metal music I looked through google scholar and turned up only a couple of sources that could be used but are not. Glenn Pillsbury's 2013 "Damage Incorporated: Metallica and the Production of Musical Identity" has an entire chapter on Fade to Black and the way that it challenged Thrash fan identity by incorporating elements from other genres. An MA thesis by Aglulub analyzes the development of Metallica's riffs and has an analysis of the riff in Creeping death - even though it is not technically published i think it might be suitable as a source.

I've read Pillsbury's analysis on "Fade to Black" and wrote why the song disappointed some fans at the time. The chapter is really detailed and it would certainly serve the song's article well. I'm just not sure where you draw the line what falls under the album's topic. If you have something specific apart from revolutionizing thrash metal, I'll gladly add.
I think that the songs of an album that has songs that are sufficiently notable to have standalone articles I think those songs need to have subsections summariing those articles. I also think each song on an album is inherently relevant to a description of the album.
Scattering each song description into its own paragraph and naming sub-sections on three songs is more of an aesthetical preference than a prose issue. My point was whether you think the current description of "Fade to Black" is good enough or do I need to further expand it with guitar tabs or chord progressions as written in the Pillsbury book.
I think it is a MOS issue actually, which requires us to summarize spin-out articles in the main article in WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. And my basic point here is that I think the section on music and lyrics needs expansion with more coverage of each song, since those songs are clearly notable enough to have a more detailed description. It is off course a question of editorial judgment which details should go in the specific article on Fade to Black and which should be included in the summary of the song in the article on Ride the Lightning.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:35, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've included Dome and Wall's opinion on "Escape" as well as some anecdotes from a Metal Hammer interview I found regarding "Creeping Death" and "Fight Fire".

Reading the previous review I can see that some of these same specific concerns were brought up in the first review round as well - I think the fact that I noted them independently suggests you really need to fix them - maybe you should go back to the first review and make sure that all the comments you received there are addressed. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Most of them were mentioned here. There's the tour naming issue, which I believe other editors will comment on. Also there were suggestions to drop the Grammy award for "The Call of Ktulu" which I believe is not off-topic and not that necessary.
  • Having looked at the Wiederhorn source, I think there is more information that could be included. For example which tracks were written before the studio and which were written in the studio. Also the fact that during the tour immediately prior to going to Denmark their gear was stolen, meaning they had to arranged for gear for some of those concerts and that Rasmussen had to borrow amplifiers for them for the recordings. This aspect of their gigs prior to recording seems more relevant than the fact that they had to sleep in fans' homes. Also apparently Hetfield used the desperation at loosing his amplifier as inspiration for fade to black - which is again relevant.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:32, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The accident with the stolen equipment is partly explained in the third paragraph of "Music and lyrics" (the inspiration for "Fade to Black"). The bit with Anthrax lending instruments was added. Also wrote about the tracks written in the studio.
Maunus, did you want to add anything? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Jaguar

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Support I've read through the article and am happy that this meets the FA criteria. One thing though, wouldn't it be best if the quote box in the Music and lyrics section be moved to the bottom? I think having the beginning of the section squashed to the left interferes with presentation, when it can be moved to the bottom left. Anyway, other than that, this article is in great shape! JAGUAR  10:46, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I dropped the boxed quote and added it to the prose in the first paragraph of the section. I could've put it at the end of the section as you suggested, but Irwin's analysis better fits the first paragraph because he discusses the overall lyrical content, not a particular song. I think it's less jarring this way. Thanks for the support and for reviewing the GA nomination as well.

Image check - all OK

Comments by FunkMonk

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Thanks, much appreciated.
  • Metallica and heavy metal (and anything else not linked) should probably be linked at first occurrence outside the lead.
Linked.
  • I'm thinking the image of a building in the background section would look better if right aligned; the building faces the left, and the adjacent text would be less disrupted.
Moved to right.
  • "The song discourages the "eye for an eye" approach, and its lyrical themes focused on nuclear warfare and Armageddon" Why the change in tense?
Applied past to the first.
  • "Michael Kamen" Introduce him?
Described him as conductor.
  • Shouldn't the section "Background and recording" include "release" in the title?
There's a sentence about the release in the second paragraph of "Reception", so it's not the only section that exclusively talks about the release.
  • "first cover story for British rock magazine Kerrang!" You present the magazine only on second occurrence. Presentations should be on first occurrence.
Corrected.
  • Could any reviewer criticism be mentioned in the reaction section? It seems a bit fawning now, there must have been some negative criticism in even the good reviews?
The only negative aspect I found in books and reviews was fans' reaction to "Fade to Black" as a ballad. Reviews in general were extremely positive, and retrospectively the album is eulogized by critics. Even Colin Larkin in Encyclopedia of Popular Music, which was the least generous review, said nothing bad about the album.
  • To be honest, I'm not sure how the touring section is related to the subject of the article at all (apart from the very last sentence)? Apart from simply having taken place after the album was released? No mention of how the songs fared during concerts etc? Seems like WP:Coatrack, and could be shortened by half. Why is it important to the album what Hetfield yelled during a concert?
The Hetfield quote was because Metallica loathed glam metal bands and was set to perform in between them. Not that he says something essential, but I think it reads amusingly and catches the reader's attention.
Yes, but what does it have to do with the album? FunkMonk (talk) 16:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Metallica (pictured in 2009) began using Ennio Morricone's music as its concert introduction in 1984.[5]" I think it is discouraged to put info in image captions that is not found in the article body. Also, I don't see why this info relates to the album.
It is related because concerts from that particular tour began with Morricone's "The Ecstasy of Gold" played on tape. I've seen other FA albums have image captions that repeat the prose from their section and I find it awfully dull. Presenting exclusive information in the caption was merely an editorial discretion.
As above, what does it have to do with the album? FunkMonk (talk) 16:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • All changes look good, but even after reviewing quite a few articles about rock albums, I've never read one that goes as much into unrelated minutiae about a subsequent tour. Could you point me to some other promoted articles where this is the case? I suspect it is because there is not a specific tour article where this info could be dumped? Since other reviewers don't seem to have taken issue with this, I'm inclined to let it go, but would like some more rationale. FunkMonk (talk) 16:52, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The MoS guide on albums says it's allowed to write about festivals, supporting acts, on-stage guest appearances related to the tour in promotion of the album. It is up for discussion whether the coverage is too broad and has unnecessary details which you pointed above.
  • Support - though I still think the touring section goes into unrelated detail, the rest of the article looks good, and I think extra text is less harmful than too little text. But if other reviewers bring this up later, it should probably be dealt with. FunkMonk (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Lewismaster

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I’m sorry for the delay in delivering my comments, but health issues and other works took most of my time. I’m not an expert in FAC, as I passed through the process only once, but I think that the article is well written and appropriately referenced. I found only some minor issues mostly in the section Background and recording. Lewismaster (talk) 18:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead
  • The album artwork is cited in the lead, but there is no text or reference about it in the rest of the article. You should add a description and something about its production in one of the sections of the main article.
Wrote a sentence about the production. The artwork is referenced in the middle of the second paragraph from "Background and recording" (ref 11).
Background and recording
  • "The album was seen as the birth of thrash metal", seen by whom? The sentence appears excessive and inaccurate, especially coming from Malcolm Dome, who coined the term thrash metal in a review for Fistful of Metal and in other statements declared Venom as the originators of that subgenre. You wrote much better in the Kill 'Em All article "regarded as a groundbreaking album for thrash metal" or "considered crucial in the thrash metal genesis".
Re-wrote it as "helped to establish". This way it doesn't imply that one album was single-handedly responsible for creating a genre, just that it helped defining and popularizing it.
  • I think you should switch or change a little the next two sentences. It is not clear during which tour Metallica were guests at fans' homes. If they composed the songs after finishing the Kill 'Em All promotional tour, in which concerts were they playing new songs? Are you talking about a second tour where they took advantage of their fan's homes?
The tour for Kill 'Em All was named Kill 'Em All Tour. After the tour ended, Metallica wrote some songs for Ride the Lightning and then started playing clubs. That was when members stayed at fan's homes, but it wasn't a classic tour (it's not named), just a number of gigs. I see I wrote it as "throughout the tour" and I'll change that. Have an idea what to replace it with?
Maybe "while completing this round of club gigs." Lewismaster (talk) 09:21, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wrote "while playing club gigs across the US".
  • Again a small problem of pacing. The sentences about the choice of the producer, Rasmussen 's opinions and Mercyful Fate practice room should be placed before the start of recording, IMO.
  • I don’t want to fuel an endless controversy, but you should at least hint at why Ulrich needed teaching in basic drumming.
This was handled by Maunus, very kind of him.
  • "Although four tracks were already arranged, the band members were not used to creating songs in the studio, as they had not done so for Kill 'Em All". This sentence is about composition and not recording and maybe it would be better placed at the beginning of the period, after the selection of riffs. Lewismaster (talk) 18:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This happened while recording. The band simultaneously recorded the finished songs and put finishing touches on others.
So maybe this way it is more clear: "While recording and putting finishing touches on four already arranged tracks, the band members learned how to create songs in the studio, as they had not done so for Kill 'Em All." Lewismaster (talk) 09:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done, although I explicitly mentioned which tracks were created in Copenhagen, and that the four already written songs were slightly modified.

I dug out my vinyl LP of Ride the Lightning, which is a Music for Nations issue and there are a couple of discrepancies about the credits, that maybe you can explain.

  • On the LP sleeve the album results produced by Metallica assisted by Flemming Rasmussen and Mark Whitaker, who is also credited as concert sound engineer and production manager. Are you sure that his role was only as executive producer, as reported in the Personnel section?
I don't have the album on vinyl and I don't have a clue about the production. I bought a CD five or six years ago, but I've put it somewhere in the basement and I'm not very eager searching for it. The personnel is the same since I started editing the article, so if you can make the adjustments, I'll be very grateful. I was also surprised to see Whitaker listed as executive producer, but I can't confirm whether he is or not.
  • When this 1984 issue was released band management was still in the hands of Crazed Management from New Jersey and not Q Prime. Q Prime managed the band when the Elektra edition was released, so I think that a distinction should be done or, more simply, the management entry from the Personnel section could be removed.
I'm also ok with making a note that Q Prime Inc and Alago were on the reissue, or I can remove them if you insist.
Since CDs were introduced in 1983, I think, but I'm not 100% sure, that the album was released on vinyl, CD, and cassette at the same time. I've rearranged the tracks to read like on vinyl, though I'm not sure that's the case.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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