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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sega/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 17 July 2019 [1].

Sega

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Nominator(s): Red Phoenix talk 14:55, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the house that Sonic built! Sega is the world's most prolific producer of arcade games, but is best known for its video game consoles and its creativity. In the modern day, Sega's not quite the same as it was, now being part of a corporate conglomerate since its acquisition through a takeover in 2004, but it has a legacy unique in video games as a company that was ahead of its time in its innovations, including modern online gaming.

This article is the culmination of years of work on Wikipedia, by myself and several other editors. Sega's video game consoles are already a featured topic, and this article serves to represent the work of all of the editors on Sega through the last decade or so. I want to extend to all of them my personal gratitude for their hard work. For the reviewers, I thank you ahead of time for your comments. Red Phoenix talk 14:55, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Eric Corbett

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There are lots of problems with the prose, of which I'll give just a few examples here:

  • "By early 1992, production had ceased in North America, having sold between 1.5 million and 2 million units" So "production" had sold between 1.5 and 2 million units?
  • Inconsistent use of US vs. U.S. as in "US territories" and "U.S. bases".
  • "Sega was founded by Martin Bromley and Richard Stewart as Nihon Goraku Bussan[c] on June 3, 1960, which became known as Sega Enterprises, Ltd ..." So Sega has the power to rename dates?
  • There are too many paragraphs beginning "In/On XXX", and too many of them follow one another.
  • "The Sega Saturn was not as successful as its predecessor, the Genesis" As an image caption that is a complete sentence which should be terminated by a full stop. This issue occurs throughout the article.
  • "Dreamcast and continuing struggles (1999-2001)" In other headings the correct ndash has been used.
  • "... claimed would allow video games to convey unprecedented emotions" How can a game, as opposed to a character in a game, display any emotion at all?
  • "His sentiments were not unique" "Unique" is an unusual adjective to be applied to anyone's sentiments, "shared" would be a more idiomatic expression.
  • "Sega was forced to cut its profit forecast by 90%" Elsewhere percentages have been expressed as "80 percent and 12 percent of the market respectively"; ought to be consistent.
  • "... and having too many games being developed" Does this mean "having too many games under development?
  • "Sega's main headquarters is located in Shinagawa-ku, Tokyo, Japan." Why "located in" rather than just "in"?
  • "Previously, Sega has had offices in France, Germany, Spain, and Australia" The verb tense "has had" makes "Previously" redundant.
  • "... have been more negatively remembered." very awkward. Perhaps "remembered less fondly"?

I would stress that these are only examples of the work that needs to be done on the prose, not an exhaustive list. Eric Corbett 16:21, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Eric, thanks for your quick comments. I understand your review and prose concerns; I would admit I'm not the best prose writer in Wikipedia. So far, I have addressed what you have posted, though I state that just to note that this has been done. I had a copyeditor go through this article a while ago, and I will ask him for a second pass. A couple of notes, whether for yourself or future reviewers, on what I did to address these concerns:
  • Split the "production" sentence into two separate sentences.
  • Using "U.S." unless otherwise contraindicated (i.e., the symbol for the U.S. dollar (US$) or website USgamer.
  • Hilarious, if Sega had the power to rename dates that would be surprising. Rephrased to remove ambiguity.
  • Reworded a number of in/on paragraph leads.
  • All images double-checked for where they need a period or not, and inserted/removed accordingly.
  • Put "unprecedented emotions" in quotes - this is actually what Ken Kutaragi said, in reference to the PlayStation2's "Emotion Engine" chip.
  • Changed wording to "shared" rather than "not unique".
  • All % signs changed to "percent".
  • Yes, too many games under development is the meaning, and fixed.
  • I've never known "located in" to be an issue, but a certain copyeditor I know has told me if I can cut a word, cut it, so it has been removed.
  • "Previously" removed.
  • Rephrased the last sentence entirely. "Less fondly" isn't really video game terminology, so I tried to use words consistent with other video game articles.
If you do have time to leave more comments, I will appreciate it. I'm a firm believer in taking feedback in stride to make articles the best they can be. Red Phoenix talk 22:51, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm surprised to discover that video gamers have invented a new form of English, although perhaps I shouldn't be. I think there could still be some tidying up of the prose, but I recognise the hard work that's been put into this article, so I won't oppose on that basis. Eric Corbett 23:43, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ritchie333

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  • Agree with Eric that there are still instances of the prose that read like a list "In 1952, x ... in 1953 ... y, in 1954 .... z". I've had a go at breaking up the flow of some of this, the remainder of the article should be checked.
  • After the war, the founders sold Standard Games and established a new distributor - What was Standard Games, if not a distributor?
  • was first used in 1954 on the Diamond Star Machine, a slot machine - Do we really need to say "machine" twice?
  • Kikai Seizō, doing business as Sega, Inc., focused on manufacturing Sega machines - isn't it still called "Service Games" not "Sega" at this point?
  • Because Sega imported second-hand machines that frequently required maintenance, Sega - repetition of "Sega". The rest of this paragraph seems say "Sega" too many times, see if you can break up the repetition a bit.
  • In order to advance the company, Rosen had a goal to take the company public - repetition of "company"

That's just from a quick scan of the first bit of the article. If I get time, I'll look at the rest. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:08, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ritchie333, thank you for your comments. In response to them:
    • I'll keep looking at opportunities to correct "list reading" throughout the article. Quite a bit has been cleared up already, and Popcornduff has been assisting with a second pass copyedit. I will keep working on it as well.
    • Removed "a new distributor" as extra unnecessary text. Standard Games was a distributor.
    • Removed an occurrence of "Machine"
    • Actually, not really, at least not in Japan. My understanding of the sources is that Sega was Service Games' branding, as early as 1954. Service Games of Japan itself was defunct by 1960, and Nihon Kikai Seizō, which did business as Sega, Inc. was one of its replacements. I did reword to remove duplicate use of "Sega".
    • Removed quite a few repetitions.
    • Again, removed the repetition.
Thank you for taking a look. I hope you do find the time to give the rest a look and provide feedback. Red Phoenix talk 19:47, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, just to echo User:Red Phoenix, there are a lot of different companies that fall under the Service Games or Sega umbrella because the Bromberg family essentially created an international coin-op distribution syndicate with operations in the United States, Asia, and Europe all controlled through a Panamanian Corporation (Note: Some of this wider history needs to be added to the article, or it really fails the comprehensiveness criteria). Japan Service Games ceased to exist in 1960 (the original Service Games, Inc. based in Hawaii ceased to exist in 1961, while the Panamanian corporation, also called Service Games, persisted until 1962). Two companies replaced it, both of which operated under several alternate names. Nihon Goraku Bussan did business as Utamatic, and Nihon Kikai Seizo did business as Sega. NKS was acquired by NGB in 1964. NGB took the name Sega Enterprises after acquiring Rosen Enterprises in 1965. Sega has easily the most convoluted history of any video game company with the possible exception of Midway, and no one source gets the whole story right. Horowitz comes the closest, but he still has a couple of details wrong. Indrian (talk) 23:05, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Indrian: you don't feel that's a better fit for History of Sega? That was the article on which you left me a message about Service Games' expanse. I've been careful about how much detail I go into on this article in order to support the spinout article - and it will go to FAC as well after Sega makes it through. If you disagree and think I need to put some here, though, I will—I've simply been holding off because I didn't think it was necessary for this article and rather was better for the other. Red Phoenix talk 23:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Certainly the full detail should be reserved for that article, but that fact that Sega was initially subservient to a Panamanian Corporation and part of an extended web of companies around the world should be mentioned. Probably can be done in less than a paragraph. Indrian (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coord notes

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This hasn't seen much action and seems to have stalled in recent weeks. I'll add it to the Urgents list but it will have to be archived soon if it doesn't receive some more review. I wish we could stir up some more active reviewers with an interest in video games. --Laser brain (talk) 22:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'm actually kind of disappointed - this is a Top-importance article for WikiProject Video games, as well as High-importance to several others. That being said, I sort of expected this just because this is a large, kinda-specialized topic, and I do note there aren't that many FAs on companies. Red Phoenix talk 02:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but this has been open almost two months now and despite a good deal of activity it doesn't seem to have moved much closer to consensus to promote, looking more like a peer review in fact. I think we need to put it to bed for now and try again after a couple of weeks. You can of course ping the above reviewers to revisit a future nom. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SnowFire

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An interesting read, good work. I saw the Sega arcade near Shinjuku station just closed fairly recently when last I was there, so not super shocking reading about how Sega's had to decrease the number of pachinko parlors they operate. If anything, as a general criticism, it'd be interesting if there was even more information about Sega's arcades & pachinko business; pachinko is certainly where the money was for a long time. But I understand that English-language sourcing is extremely hard to get on that.

By Christmas, Sega held 31 percent of the North American video game market.[137]

The reference is busted here (including the archived version), but what exactly does this mean? Percentage of new console sales? If so, say that.

During 2003, Sega had plans of broadening its franchises to Hollywood co-operating with John Woo

This sentence reads weirdly. And... checking the reference, implies the wrong thing. "broadening its franchise to Hollywood" sounds like "Sega had plans to make movies based on their franchises" but the source says it was just games. John Woo backed the studio, sure, but this isn't what most people mean by going to Hollywood.

Because of the shrinking arcade business in Japan,[199] development personnel were also relocated to digital games.[200]

Whoa! OR alert here. Confusing reference, too, the URL goes to their 2019 strategy but the archived version is the 2015 strategy, but neither of them really claim this based off my reading. They don't even claim a mistier version of "reallocating resources" (e.g. layoff pachinko-related personnel to hire digital games makers). I'm not sure what point this wants to make, but it shouldn't be "Fred used to work on pachislot machines but now makes Yakuza's Steam version."

Due to the decline of packaged game sales worldwide in the 2010s,[195] Sega began layoffs and reduction of their Western businesses; for example, it closed five offices based in Europe and Australia on July 1, 2012.[196]

Mm, kinda sorta. After Sega cut their expected revenue in half (holy wow how does that even happen), of which some portion was attributable to an industry-wide fall in demand in the home video game industry (but industry-wide certainly didn't see a horrific 50% cut!), they closed 5 offices. If Sega was doing fine but the industry was collapsing they might well have not made that move. Also it's not even clear if this is a "reduction of business" exactly, since they were still publishing in these countries, just through paying third-parties. (Realistically, of course there was such a reduction, but that's technically not in the source if we're going to nitpick. Certainly plenty of companies that have attempted to implement cost-saving measures, and have those measures cost even more.)

Since then, the strategies for Asian and Western markets have become independent. The Western lineup...

Don't leave us hanging! What's the new strategy for the Asian market, then? If this is unknown, then how are we sure it diverged from the Western strategy?

Technosoft did not want their brand to desist

This is weird use of desist ("de-exist??") and I'm not sure it's that relevant anyway? Technosoft seems like it wasn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

In October 2017, Sega of America announced its online store, the Sega Shop

Did anything come of this? Do non-primary sources talk about it at all? Plenty of businesses have an utterly non-notable shop website where you can buy a branded hat with a logo or whatever. Was this was more than that?

In 1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die, Duncan Harris wrote: "One of the reasons that older gamers mourned the loss of the Dreamcast was that it signaled the demise of arcade gaming culture ... Sega's console gave hope that things were not about to change for the worse and that the tenets of fast fun and bright, attractive graphics were not about to sink into a brown and green bog of realistic war games."

Is this really a notable piece of commentary? If Duncan Harris himself mourns the death of the Dreamcast, great, but a bit rich to talk for "older gamers" in general, many of whom never played a Dreamcast. (Call of Duty won't come out until 2003, people were whining about Quake being too grimy and brown back in 1995, and "fast fun" may be taken TOO literally by the modern mobile & casual game market.). If kept, I'd skip a full quote and just cut to the main point - that the Dreamcast was a successor to "arcade culture" and had bright, attractive graphics, and he mourned its (& Sega's?) passing.

SnowFire (talk) 23:20, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SnowFire, and thanks for your comments. I was just about to abandon all hope of getting any more feedback. Anyway, let me see if I can address your concerns.
  • On pachinko, my understanding is that's really more of Sammy Corporation's gig, so it would be a better fit regardless for that or Sega Sammy Holdings - this article is more focused on Sega Games Co., Ltd. and a bit on the subsidiaries of Sega Holdings Co., Ltd. (since some of them were a part of Sega Corporation before the takeover), but there is much more under the whole Sega Sammy Holdings umbrella. Regardless, the more small, less-important details of Sega's history itself I'm putting into History of Sega, a spinout article. If you have a source for it, though, I'd be interested in reading.
  • Fixed reference 137 - it seems that Bloomberg has moved it behind a paywall, which is why the ref broke and Checklinks didn't catch it.
  • Rephrased the John Woo comment to avoid confusing ambiguity.

I'll continue drilling on this in a bit. Red Phoenix talk 13:39, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The whole bit about the "shrinking arcade business" I just axed entirely; I think there's enough above it for us to get the point. The reference issue has to do with Sega Sammy basically rewrote their new year's strategy over the same URL for the old year's, probably the way their site works. There's one more occurrence; I'll just replace the URL with the archived 2015 version.
  • Added "in part" and rephrased to remove "reduction"
  • Stricken the independent comment
  • Removed the paragraph but kept a sentence about Technosoft.
  • To my knowledge, there's not really much to say about Sega Shop other than it's a more-recent event in corporate history, and it's only taken a single sentence to share a more recent event, of which there is not nearly as much as past events to cover. If you insist I strike it, I will, but I don't see it as doing harm.
  • I do feel it's a notable piece of commentary because it's representative of Sega, the Dreamcast, and the changes in the industry as a whole as to part of why it has the reputation it has. I trimmed it a bit, but we can discuss further."

Red Phoenix talk 15:17, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, most of the changes look good. Remaining thoughts:

  • So what did the Bloomberg article actually say behind the paywall? I'm generally skeptical of "X% of the market" without qualification / explanation claims because what exactly the "market" is and how it's measured can vary so much. Did it truly just say that with nothing more?
  • Sega Shop: It's up to you, so I'm not "insist"ing it be removed, but the only secondary coverage is small ball regurgitation of the press release based off a quick Google Search. Put things another way, should the Atlus USA article include a sentence like "Atlus directly sells merchandise from https://shop.atlus.com/ ?" It just doesn't seem that interesting. (But, to be clear, if you disagree, it's not something I'd withhold promotion support over. Possible I just don't have enough context.)
  • That quote from 1001 video games is better trimmed, thanks. SnowFire (talk) 18:53, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Megaman en m

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A quick review of the lead:

  • "(/ˈsɛɡə/" - I heard some people pronounce it as /seɪgɑ/ (say-gah), would this need to be sourced?
  • "Sega's arcade division, once part of Sega Corporation, has existed as Sega Interactive Co., Ltd., also a Sega Holdings subsidiary, since 2015." - reads a bit awkwardly, can the sentence be simplified or split up?
  • "...has been criticized for prioritizing quantity of game releases over quality." - Where is this sourced? I can only find Sega themselves saying this in "Sega blamed the loss on miscalculations of the market and having too many games under development.". In fact, one source laments the lack of games: "Travis Fahs of IGN noted that since the Sammy takeover Sega had developed fewer games and outsourced to more western studios".
  • Note: The lead could do with mentioning Sega's legacy per MOS:LEAD.

There are two instances of broken wiki-syntax at the bottom of the references section.

Hi Megaman en m, and thanks for your feedback. Here are my responses:
  • I think the pronunciation is debatable in English; either one I've heard in parlance. That being said, I did change it to your suggestion because my reading of it is that's more in line with how it would be pronounced in Japanese. I don't think it needs sourced; that seems really silly to source a pronunciation.
  • Correct IPA would be [seɡa] per Help:IPA/Japanese. Japanese words are pronounced exactly how they are written, leaving no room for interpretation. Sega is written as two letters, se (せ) and ga　(が). Watch any youtube video on Japanese letter pronunciation and it will be clear. So it actually sounds like Se-Ga. The Say-gah phenomenon is a western contortion. TarkusABtalk 20:57, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Split up as asked.
  • Removed, and you'll have to forgive me a bit here - I do a lot of work on Sega-related articles, and I used some of them to stitch this one together. This is taken from one of those, but I didn't use the matching sources here because they weren't as targeted to Sega specifically. So, I removed this one.
  • In turn for the removal, added a bit of the legacy.
  • Fixed the syntax error - I think we actually made that error at FAC with some of the strikeouts.
Red Phoenix talk 21:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • Mostly going by Eric Corbett's comments on the prose, it seems like we still have some inconsistent "US" vs. "U.S." usage.
    • I swore I had them all, and then I looked back and saw I missed a couple, somehow. Went back and fixed them. Still using U.S. except when it would be improper (i.e. the US dollar abbreviation US$ or for website USgamer).
  • I see that the last paragraph of the Legacy section appears to have a bit of a "X said Y" issue; is there some kind of comprehensive assessment?
    • There's not really a comprehensive assessment per se in the sources, in large part I think because the company has gone through so many drastic changes that I tried to put together what I could find about comments on the company as a whole. The only really comprehensive statement I have in one of my sources dates to 2009, which means it doesn't encapsulate the last 10 years of the company. If you have a way you can suggest I can still improve on it, I'll be glad to implement.
  • File:Sonic 1991.png I am not convinced that it meets WP:NFCC#8 in that form.
    • I was on the fence about keeping this one, too - it was there before I started work on this article and I debated if an image of a company mascot was appropriate on a company article. If you are not convinced, I think it's best to simply remove it for now and replace it with an image of a Genesis, which I have done.
  • File:Sega Annual Income(Loss) 1993-2004.svg: Might be a good idea to add source links.
    • I'll see if I can get that added on the Commons image.
  • There is a Harris 2014 citation that seems to be broken.
  • I see an inconsistent reference formatting, once "Kent 2001" and once "Horowitz" without a year is used. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:43, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • All straightened around in both cases, and consistently linked.

Otherwise the images seem fine but the ref section need some minor repair. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:43, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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