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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sega CD/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose (talk) 11:49, 4 June 2014 (diff).

Sega CD

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Nominator(s): Red Phoenix let's talk... 00:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article had a previous FAC which received little feedback and was archived. Instead of going for an instant re-nomination, I opted to work on and bring Sega 32X through FAC instead. It's been a little while, but I've put some more effort into this article since then, including doing some more minor buffs and adding a bit of polish to really make this article shine. It's also a part of the WP:FTC nomination of Sega Genesis as a featured topic, along with czar's ongoing nomination of Menacer. It's good to go and ready for another run at FAC, and as always I welcome all of the feedback I get during this process. Red Phoenix let's talk... 00:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tezero

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Close. Very close.

  • "Reasons for the Sega CD's limited sales include the add-on's high price, lack of significant enhancement to the Genesis console, and lack of ability to function without a console attached." - Carries a slight air of non-neutrality. I'd switch this to a "Writers have cited numerous reasons for the Sega CD's limited sales, such as..."
  • "as well as the controversial Night Trap, which resulted in Congressional hearings on video game violence." - The second clause isn't really necessary, as this has been covered extensively earlier.
  • "Four separate reviews scored the add-on 8, 9, 8, and 8 out of 10, citing the upgrades it provides to the Genesis and a few select titles, but noted anticipation of upcoming titles for the system" - Slightly awkward wording. How about "Four separate reviews scored the add-on 8, 9, 8, and 8 out of 10; reviewers cited its upgrades to the Genesis as well as its its high-quality and expanding library of games."
  • "Retrospective reception of the Sega CD is mixed, though it has often been criticized for not offering enough to gamers to justify its steep cost." - How is it being criticized for this a contradiction of its reception being mixed? I'd split this part off into a new sentence with no "though" - either that or mention the CD's well-received, albeit limited, library of titles in the same breath. "Mixed" is accurate, I'd say, but stick with isosceles weighting.
  • I feel like the Night Trap section might be a little detailed given the low attention paid to the Sega CD itself there.
  • "It was unveiled to the public for the first time at the 1991 Tokyo Toy Show, to positive reception" - Can you elaborate a little?
  • "The specified limit on time spent seeking the heads versus playing a track was 5 per cent. Some of our video-based titles were running around 90 per cent." - A little unclear. Can you paraphrase this, adding some non-technical context?
  • I realize this is an important piece of information that one wouldn't want to jettison, but is Man!ac Magazine a reliable source?
  • "Sega CD attached to a Sega Genesis" - The lettering isn't quite visible at current resolution, which isn't a problem, but which suggests that you should specify which part of this contraption is the Sega CD. I'm not familiar with the Genesis, as my first home console was a GameCube and I didn't get into Sonic until the early 2000s, and the average reader may also not be. How about "Sega CD (on right) ..."?

Tezero (talk) 19:23, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support; the article looks good to me now. The German publication really should be listed at WP:VG/RS, though, as sometimes that's all I have to go by. Tezero (talk) 14:29, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • WP:VG/RS isn't an all-inclusive list, but I'm sure if more articles use it, it may come up for discussion there. I've been pushing to get Sega-16 on there selectively for its interviews and postings by established video game journalist Ken Horowitz and just haven't gotten it done yet. Red Phoenix let's talk... 00:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is a nice overview that hits all the salient points regarding the addon as thoroughly as current English-language sources allow. I took the liberty of tweaking the language a bit to improve flow in a couple of places, but overall the writing is solid. I hope this gets enough feedback this time to achieve promotion. Indrian (talk) 18:54, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you, I hope it does this time too. It'll complete the "Genesis trifecta", as I doubt Nomad, Meganet, or Channel will ever make it here due to lack of sufficient sources and things to say about them. Red Phoenix let's talk... 00:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • We should not let personal feelings like those blockade the effort of bringing them here to see what we can't just maybe accomplish despite those things.--SexyKick 01:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, realistically, since those aren't going to be viewed as much as the others, we shouldn't take it as a given that they need to be FAs. (There are already more than enough for this to qualify as an FT, for what that's worth, anyway.) Tezero (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll do the images review for this, and a random source check during the next few days.--SexyKick 21:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Review from czar

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In the interest of transparency: both the nom and I participate in the WikiCup czar ♔ 00:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This review is long overdue. I'm sorry for not catching it during its last FAC.

As much as possible, please respond below my signature so as to leave the original review uninterrupted (see last FAC instructional bullet). Any questions below are rhetorical: I'm looking for clarification in the article, not an actual answer.

  • Could save a few syllables by flipping "in Japan on December 12, 1991, in North America on October 15, 1992 ..." to "on December ... in Japan, October ... in North America, ..."
  • Avoid "seasons" such as "spring"
  • "Utilize" can almost always be "use", same for "allowed" to "let", "put", etc., "employ" → "use" or nothing at all
  • "allowed for larger games" clarify
  • I began to go this route, but make a connection between "larger games", "realism", and "Night Trap"—how one enabled the other (in the lede). If you need a source, see my edits on the Videogame Rating Council
  • "While it became known for several games such as Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Lunar: Eternal Blue" What is "it"? Sega CD? Because the games were anticipated or because the games sold and made it famous? cl (Also that sentence construction doesn't make much sense starting with "while")
  • "it was announced that Sega's support" by whom? Sega? If so, say so
  • What is "value for money"? Replay value? Lasting value of the console? Collector's value? Return on investment? cl
  • Try to avoid "-ing" (gerund) constructions at almost all costs—they were overused in the lede. The sentences you'll make will be tighter

Development

  • Way too much crammed into this first sentence: "Released in Japan as the Mega Drive in 1988, North America in 1989, and Europe ..." Keep a strong topic sentence for important ¶s
  • "Shortly after the release of the Mega Drive": is this to say the Japanese Genesis release? If so, say so
  • Likewise, clarify what's going on with Super Famicom/Super Nintendo names
  • "TurboGrafx-CD|PC Engine CD": why the latter instead of the former?
  • "that combined CD audio with visual graphics": what combined? the CD+G? the player? also this phrase can be clarified

Good work. I think the prose is capable of being better. See my review and compare my copyedit diff to see the recurring stuff I'm finding. I recommend reading the text out loud (maybe with every sentence twice) and asking whether every word is essential. That's one of the best ways to make the text tighter. Give me a ping when these are addressed and I'll continue and do a source review. I can also discontinue the review, if you prefer. I'm also looking for feedback on the Deathrow FAC, for those interested. czar ♔ 00:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Czar: I apologize for the slow response; I've been sick the last couple of days and took a short wikibreak as a result. In response to your points:
  • I went ahead and did your suggested flips and removed the season.
  • Clarified larger games, and removed "realism" as it's not well referenced in the article or in the sources.
  • Clarified the add-on being known for its games as being well-received.
  • Someone already got the Sega's support comment.
  • Removed value for money altogether and substituted criticism of the add-on's high price. I'm not sure how to better word it without going into a longer explanation of how it was quite expensive and didn't have enough good games to warrant spending $299 on top of a Genesis, which is the value for money criticism.
  • Someone already got the "Released in Japan..." sentence.
  • I went ahead and fixed the "Shortly after the release of the Mega Drive" and the Super Famicom thing. I had thought that paragraph had been region-specific; it turns out it was not, and neither is the source, really.
  • I pulled the last phrase about CD+G - anyone interested in the standard can click the resulting link to learn more about it.
A couple of other quick notes:
  • PC Engine CD is used because the "TurboGrafx-CD" isn't the console being referred to. That wasn't released until 1990, long after the time period we're referring to. The source is specifically referring to the Japanese variant, which was released in 1988, and the sourcing article itself is from 1989. So, in this case this is a region-specific usage; I'll make sure to slip the Japan part in there.
  • On the topic of prose and reading it over: I'm not exactly of the Ernest Hemingway school of writing. I often find repetitively using the same word over and over (i.e. "use") to make for dull and unengaging prose, and tend to use varied sentence structures (including gerunds) in order to increase sentence fluency, as I do in my own writing. When I read these things over, I don't see it quite the same way and it reads fine to me, and that makes it quite a bit more difficult for me to review it for minimalistic prose. I'm not saying I'm a fantastic writer; only that your recommendation here sort of goes over my head of what I'm capable of completing on my own. Red Phoenix let's talk... 13:38, 23 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe there's another copyeditor you can recruit then? I'm in the throes of final deadlines, or I'd give it a rework myself. The issue is not to use "use" or bust, but that a fairly complex sentence sometimes benefits from syllabic conservation. "Let" and "put" are also really useful in that they can make a sentence much less needlessly complicated. Re: the other edits—I'd try to work in "realism" as I understand that and the available disc size to be major parts of what led to the violence-related Congressional hearings. czar ♔ 23:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Realism is one aspect, but something this article has been criticized on before on its talk page is that I initially had a large amount of detail on the subject, and was asked to strip it down by a couple of different editors because of its length and limited relevance; essentially, the Night Trap controversy here applies just to it being an effect on Sega CD and its sales. Realism was just as much an issue with the non-CD game Mortal Kombat, and I'm not sure it applies directly to the Sega CD in itself. Red Phoenix let's talk... 23:30, 30 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review by PresN

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Image Review - Passed

The Xeye image is the only one with a problem; there are some shots on flickr that you could ask the photographer to re-license as CC-by-SA (I searched "Xeye console") --PresN 18:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if it's okay, I went ahead and removed both the Xeye and the Multi-Mega images. On the subject of both, neither really demonstrates "another model", just a regional variant. X'Eye is the same as the Victor WonderMega, Multi-Mega the same as the Genesis CDX, each of which is pictured already. That should also resolve any copyright issues. Red Phoenix let's talk... 20:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, cool. --PresN 17:32, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TheTimesAreAChanging

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I'm responding to Red Phoneix's request for input at the Sega Saturn FAC. There aren't many outstanding issues, and I'm short on time, so I doubt much of the following will be especially insightful. Even so, here are a few suggestions:

  • "As CD-based technology increased in popularity, Sega sought to make a Genesis add-on that used compact discs." This contradicts the statement later in the article that "They planned to increase the system's graphical capabilities, which lagged behind those of Nintendo's competing SNES, and did not have a CD-ROM player in mind." That statement is dubious as well, as we shall see, but it would be more accurate to say that Sega was trying to expand the size of Genesis games, and the increased storage space offered by CDs turned out to be the best solution.
  • "The Sega CD was redesigned numerously." Awkward phrase.
  • "Sega announced its shift away from the Genesis and Sega CD towards its new console, the Sega Saturn, in 1995." I'm not aware of such an announcement, nor is any source provided in the body. Moreover, at least one major Sega CD game--Eternal Champions: Challenge from the Dark Side--was released in 1995.
  • "Criticizing the game library as a whole for its lack of depth and high price of the unit, as well as issues with how the add-on was supported by Sega." I'd like to think a more elegant word choice is possible to convey that the library was not a huge leap over that of the Genesis.
  • "They planned to increase the system's graphical capabilities, which lagged behind those of Nintendo's competing SNES, and did not have a CD-ROM player in mind." This is a misrepresentation of the cited source, which says: "Originally, it wasn't designed to play CD-ROMs. Even so, the main focus was to increase its capacity." Graphical capabilities are not named as the main impetus for the add-on's creation, and there is no comparison of the capabilities of the SNES and the Genesis anywhere in the article.
  • In the section where you quote Latham (incidentally the producer of Eternal Champions) on Sega of America's dummy unit, I would suggest including a bit more of his analysis: "Our take on it was one of wonder from a product development side, but as soon as we started to program for it, I think...  that sense of wonder went away quickly. It was literally a mass storage extension of the Genesis. It wasn't a new system...  It did have small expansion abilities, but they were not significant." On the other hand, Latham's more recent comments have been less harsh: "I loved the Sega CD. I always thought the platform was under-appreciated and that it was hurt by an over-concentration of trying to make Hollywood interactive film games versus using its storage and extended abilities to make just plain great video games."
  • "Well-known titles include the critically acclaimed Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Lunar: Eternal Blue." You might want to supplement the two sources listed here to justify the term "critically acclaimed". I'm also not sure why Eternal Blue is more notable than Lunar: The Silver Star. I understand that there is less to say about the Sega CD's library than the Saturn's (and the "Game library" section in Sega Saturn is more detailed than a lot of other console articles), but if I were doing it I would have gone a little more in-depth on the Sega CD's library. Suffice it to say that Eternal Champions was a big deal back then, although I haven't done enough research to provide sources; the Game Informer review archive suggests the game received a 9/10 in the April 1995 issue, but I wasn't able to find a copy (GI's 100th issue gives the same score, though, which suggests that this is not one of the errors that occasionally creeps into their archive). Other notable games mentioned even in the handful of sources used here include Final Fight CD (notable because Sega actually created Streets of Rage to compete with Final Fight) and Hideo Kojima's Snatcher. A large number of PC adventure games were ported to the system as well. Again, just things to consider; I expect sources are out there if you're willing to do a little digging. (I'm assuming that a lack of sources is why Allgame's estimate of at least 140 games released in the US market is why that figure is used despite the well over 200 games documented in List of Sega CD games.)

Take that with a grain of salt.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, TTAAC, and don't mind the grain of salt. I'm on a low sodium diet.
  • Combining two points into one: "They planned to increase the system's graphical capabilities, which lagged behind those of Nintendo's competing SNES, and did not have a CD-ROM player in mind." That's not one of mine... but I've fixed it. On the topic of "seeking out a device that used compact discs", this might be best explained by the Kent and IGN sources which explain the situation starting with the phenomenon that compact discs became. I'm not sure that that's an incorrect statement as with the emergence of CD-based technology, they certainly did seek to make a CD-based expansion as the means to the end. That being said, it certainly is confusing as it is, so I've straightened it around some to remove this.
  • "Numerously" - ha, now that's an unusual word. Reworded.
  • I've tried to lighten up the last sentence of the lead.
  • Altered "announced" to "shifted", which is what the source actually said.
I'll look at more later. Red Phoenix let's talk... 04:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Critically acclaimed" is a little much, although I'd be willing to bet I could find Sonic CD reviews everywhere. I've removed that phrase. Eternal Blue is noted over Silver Star because it's on the 1UP source; it's not really about one being more notable than the other but as being examples of recognized titles in retrospectives; which tends to be a good way of finding the titles that stand the test of time. Unfortunately, my access to period based sources is very limited; I've been out of college for the past two years and have no access to paywalled sources. I have requested HighBeam access but am still waiting on it.
  • On Latham - fantastic new quote you have there. I think that will go well with the Bayless quote already in the article at the bottom. I'll see if I can plug the other one in earlier, too.
I have been led to believe, by an unreliable website, that the December 1991 issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly contains an interview with Tomio Takami, who is described as the "creator" of the Sega CD. My efforts to track down the issue have been unsuccessful. I have debated whether I should mention this here, but I suppose if I do someone else may investigate the matter with greater success than I.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:57, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have the issue shortly and will take a look czar ♔ 22:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Two page article: [1] Link will be up for 24 hours czar ♔ 00:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot! There is some good information in there which should improve the accuracy of the "Development" section.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:06, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've revamped the section accordingly. Note that earlier experiments may not have been based on CD-ROM technology, but Takami's discussion of the Sega CD project appears to start with the decision to make a CD add-on to compete with NEC.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comment: I noticed that Sega Genesis mentions its library of over 900 games in the lead, citing List of Sega Genesis games, which makes me wonder if using the number found in List of Sega CD games would be so wrong.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It wouldn't, but unfortunately it's not really sourced elsewhere. WP:SUM allows for simple mathematical calculations, which is what's used in the list. Here's the problem, and I encountered it working on all three of the games lists: there is no single source that lists all titles in all regions. Allgame's figure I can bet are North American only, as it does tend to be a US-centric site with some European and much less Japanese - it listed only NA and PAL titles on its corresponding games list, and I had to finish the list article with a source from Sega that listed all Japanese titles. On List of Sega Genesis games, I had to spot-in sources for more titles like Uzu Keobukseon, a Korean exclusive published by Samsung. The "over 140" comes from the Allgame article itself and not counting its list; perhaps simply removing this would be best? Red Phoenix let's talk... 18:03, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Assuming the featured list is accurate, doesn't it establish that there were over 200 games for the Sega CD? Sega Genesis doesn't have any regional qualifiers when referencing its library of over 900 games, so I'm not sure I fully understand your objection. Either way, I may make a few minor enhancements to the "Game library" section, based on whatever good sources I can find. I'm still not satisfied with the summary in the lead; I know you feel my version was based on original research, but the sources do note that the Sega CD's library was filled with scarcely improved Genesis ports.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, this is really your baby. I'll just point out a couple potential sources here:
  • [2], [3], [4] Evidence that Lunar: The Silver Star was well-received at the time.
  • [5], [6] Silver Star mentioned in "Top 200 Games" list, PlayStation remake included as one of the best games for the system.
  • [7], [8] Could be used with 1UP on Snatcher.
  • [9] Sonic CD as one of the best platform games. Numerous other sources in the main article could be used to justify "critical acclaim".
I admit that's not much, so feel free to disregard.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)On the contrary, TTAAC. I'm more than glad to allow you to touch this if you feel it will help; unfortunately my time is becoming more limited this month. I work as a manager in a big box retail store, and we have a full store inventory in less than a month, so that will consume a lot of my time until mid-June. I will watch out for perceived OR, of course, but you're more than welcome to help if you would like and feel it would improve the article. Your access to sources seems to exceed mine by quite a bit, or at least your experience with the console shows - I've never owned a Sega CD and I was young when it was cancelled. On the regard of the number of titles; there's really no objection, I'm just not sure how we'd be able to cite over 200 games without a source that explicitly says that in this article. I'm sorry I linked the wrong link above; it's actually WP:CALC I'm looking at. About the best I can think of is to cite all the games lists cited in the list article, but that may be a bit much for WP:CALC in terms of cross-referencing the sources. Red Phoenix let's talk... 03:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'm starting to feel silly about bringing up all these sources, but Sega-16 has some good information on Final Fight CD and Eternal Champions. I'm reluctant to add it because I'm not sure Sega-16 is reliable.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 03:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've gone ahead and added a number of sources. The only source I wish I still had was GameSpot's "History of Sega Fighting Games," which had some good coverage of Eternal Champions (including how it was killed off to avoid competition with Virtua Fighter, even though Sega was putting out competing 3D fighters like Fighting Vipers and Last Bronx at the same time), although I can't recall exactly what it might have said about the Sega CD version. I searched for and found it when researching Sega Saturn, then it died on me all over again.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:57, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I'm more than happy to Support this article's FA candidacy. I had to look for issues to justify commenting here, and Red Phoenix addressed all of them quite promptly. I would still support it even if some of the changes I made to "Game library" (where my edits have been relatively minor) were reverted. The only section that I thought really needed work was "Development", and the Takami article provided enough juicy information to rectify all of my concerns.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 04:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Source review by PresN

There's been some spotchecking above, so I'll just stick to the sources themselves.

  • I'm not seeing any non-RS sources- Sega-16 is the closest, but that one's covered by Ken Horowitz's personal notability, as recently discussed at WT:VG.
  • There's a bunch of formatting problems though. You seem to be going with the "link every time" pattern rather than the "link just the earliest cite" pattern, so I'll stick with that.
  • 1- italicize Retro Gamer, as it's a magazine, and link Imagine Publishing
  • 7- link The Economist
  • 13- link Sun-Sentinel
  • Any reason why you don't link Sega in publisher fields? (16, 21, 22, 37)
  • Link 1UP.com, IGN, GameSpot in 26, 27, 30, 36)
  • Is Prima Publishing in 2, 4, 18, 28 Prima Games?
  • Link Steven Kent in 28
  • 29 - link/italicize Game Informer, and drop the 'GI Staff' bit- you don't need to specify if no author is given
  • Also drop the staff bit from 20, 26, 27, 30, 31
  • Italicize GamePro in 32
  • Italicize OXM in 34, and pipe the link, don't split it in the middle of the name
  • Change the date formats in 26, 27, 30, 32-36
  • In your GamePro cites, add the publisher as GamePro Media, since it and Game Informer in 26, 29 are the only ones you miss for magazines
  • In 40, Famicom Tsushin is the original full name of Famitsu, and should link there and have their publisher
  • Link and italicize GamePro in 41
  • Add an access date to 42
  • Consider archiving your references via WebCite.org or web.archive.org or similar- websites go offline or change all the time, and can thereby gut your article by destroying all your sources. Particularly GameSpot, since that site is actually closed.
  • --PresN 21:48, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: GameSpot is my fault; I should have made a mirrored version when I had the chance. Although I suspect that link may start working again at some point, as GameSpot hasn't been consistently down.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: I actually prefer the "link just the earliest cite", so I'll go with that if that's cool.
  • Removed link for Imagine Publishing from later source and moved it to first one.
  • The Economist linked
  • Sun-Sentinel linked, and Tribune Company added and linked as publisher.
  • Yes, Prima Publishing is Prima Games - linked in first occurrence.
  • De-linked extraneous links to Allgame and Electronic Gaming Monthly, as well as extra uses of Steven Kent.
  • Game Informer ref fixed.

So far. Red Phoenix let's talk... 00:49, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • All "staffs" removed
  • All dates corrected
  • GamePro references fixed and publishers added to magazines
  • Sega is not over linked because of its use in ref 10.

That should be it. Red Phoenix let's talk... 01:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed. --PresN 02:07, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: We're ready to go here. Red Phoenix let's talk... 02:11, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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