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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Shunzhi Emperor/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 13:04, 18 December 2012 [1].

Shunzhi Emperor

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Shunzhi Emperor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Madalibi (talk) 04:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since the good article review took place a month ago, I have abridged long developments on the Qing conquest of China and expanded a few sections on the emperor's personal reign. The article is now thematically complete, fully referenced, and fluently written, which I think makes it ready for featured status. Thank you all in advance for your time! Madalibi (talk) 04:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • About bloody time this made its way here . As the person that did the GA review, I'm not going to make a formal support, but I will go on the record and say that I felt it was FA quality when I did the GA review several weeks ago. Sven Manguard Wha? 04:26, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pardon me, but that sounds perverse. You thought when you did the GA review that it was FA quality, but now it is here you are not prepared to support it? Makes no sense to me, unless you are saying that the article has somehow deteriorated since becoming a GA. Maybe you will clarify. Brianboulton (talk) 19:39, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • MathewTownsend is correct. If I hadn't been involved in the GAN I'd be supporting it here, because I do believe that it's FA quality, but since I was the person that reviewed it at the GAN, I don't want my one voice to have a disproportionately large effect on the article's status, and thus am not putting up a bolded support statement. To reiterate, I do feel comfortable that this is FA quality, I simply don't think that the person that promotes an article to GA status should be one of the formal FAC reviewers. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:42, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the explanation. It's entirely up to you, though it is fairly usual for GA reviewers to give formal support here, while declaring their prior GA involvement. Anyway, I'm sure the delegates will note this as an effective support. Brianboulton (talk) 10:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, this is why we have delegates reading and weighing up comments to determine if there's consensus, rather than just a bot counting supports or opposes... ;-) Nevertheless, even taking Sven's comments as a effective support in conjunction with the explicit ones, there's still some more to consider -- see below. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are problems here:
    • 83. ^ Wakeman, pp. 985–86. Harv error: link to #CITEREFWakeman doesn't point to any citation.
    • 99.^ a b c Wills 1984, p. 40. Harv error: link to #CITEREFWills1984 doesn't point to any citation.

Graham Colm (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good job spotting this! Just fixed it. Madalibi (talk) 23:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. 1) lead contains a referenced claim "it constitutes a relatively little-known period of Qing history", not repeated elsewhere. Per MOS:LEAD, lead should only summarize the information present elsewhere in the body, and avoid references, unless the claim is controversial enough. I suggest copying this claim to the body and removing ref from lead. 2) Xuanye should be linked in lead 3) so should Mongol 4) first section of the body, missing links to Qing state and later, to Fulin 5) second paragraph, first section, is missing end-of-para references. I know there is no consensus on my preferred "each sentence should be referenced", but surely, we do require at least end-of-para refs? 6) I'd suggest adding a paragraph to the first section (or above it) explaining the wider circumstances of Chinese history of the period, I am gathering it was a time of some civil war? 7) quickly scanning through the rest of the article, I see several other paragraphs missing end-of-paragraph citations. Given that, I would like to ask for a reference check on some unreferenced sentences from elsewhere in the article (the article does not use Google Books links, so I can't be bothered to spot check anything myself). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:43, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Piotrus, this is very useful. I have addressed points 2 to 5 and most of 7, except for one thing: linking to "Fulin" would be circular, because Fulin was the Shunzhi Emperor's personal name. Let me think of a good place to integrate the sentence you mention in point 1... I'm also starting to write a new "Historical background" section to explain where all these people, institutions, and dynasties came from. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 01:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just posted a new section explaining the events that led to the enthronement of the Shunzhi Emperor in 1643. I made sure to mention themes and names that come up again in later sections, things like the Eight Banners, the difference between the Jurchens and the Manchus, the origin of the dynastic name "Qing," and the crises that led to the fall of the Ming in 1644. Let me know if you think the new section is clear enough for all readers to understand what's going on. I also integrated the citation from the lead into another section. That should take care of points 1 and 6. Thanks again! Madalibi (talk) 06:11, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, I just eliminated the last unreferenced sentence in the article, the one claiming that "hundreds of thousands were killed" before all of China was brought to submission. The sentence is factually true, but I don't have any specific reference for it, so I replaced it with two sentences that form a better conclusion to the paragraph at hand (the third within "The conquest of China"). I think this takes care of point 7, though anybody is welcome to point to other unreferenced claims that I may have missed. Madalibi (talk) 06:43, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Piotrus has spent what must have been a considerable amount of time to "fix and organize references" in the article (see the diff here). This edit was made with the good of the article in mind, but I have reverted it because I don't think it improves the page. Despite adding 7,493 bytes of text, it doesn't change the footnote display. But my main concern is that editing has now become less convenient. If I want to add content to this wiki, I now have to do it in two different places, because the content of all the notes has been confined to a separate section at the end of the article. And if I want to look at the html code for the notes while I edit a specific section, I can't, because that text has been moved elsewhere. That makes for inconvenient editing. I may be convinced to undo my own revert, but only if someone can explain why the new form is an improvement over the previous one, and how this improvement can offset the added inconvenience, which I find considerable. What do you all think? Madalibi (talk) 00:51, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Why are you setting so many image sizes at smaller than the default? See WP:IMGSIZE
  • I've put most of them back to default size. The full-size images used to interfere with display because they overlapped between several sections, but that was when sections were smaller or when there were more images. Now default size seems to be working fine. Madalibi (talk) 09:01, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Emperor_Shunzhi.jpg needs US PD tag
  • Aren't US PD tags reserved for works made in the US? When it comes to copyright tags, I'm a complete beginner, so I just want to make sure of this before I go on modifying the tags on so many files. Madalibi (talk) 09:01, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check out the disclaimer on {{PD-old}}: "You must also include a United States public domain tag to indicate why this work is in the public domain in the United States". Since Wikipedia's servers are US-based, we require that all works - even those created abroad - are free to use in the US. That shouldn't be an issue with works of this age, which should mostly be {{PD-old-100}}; the problem mostly arises for more recent works. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:43, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:China_Qing_Dynasty_Flag_1889.svg: source link is dead
  • File:Jurchen_woodblock_print.png: page number in source?
  • File:Emperor_Huang_Taiji.jpg needs US PD tag
  • File:Yangzhou_massacre.jpg needs US PD tag
  • File:Shang-Kexi-0099.jpg: PD-self tag shouldn't be there - uploading an old image does not create a new copyright
  • File:Shunzhi.jpg needs US PD tag
  • File:Portrait_of_Jiang_Shunfu.jpg needs US PD tag
  • File:A_eunuch_of_Qing_Dynasty.JPG: source link appears broken, needs US PD tag
  • done. The entire source site (www.52banzou.cn) seems to be down or blocked. It took some time, but I found the original source of this picture, a 1936 work on the history of Chinese medicine, which dates the picture to 1901. I updated the description template accordingly and found another online source (see File:A eunuch of Qing Dynasty.JPG). Madalibi (talk) 03:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Yongli-itinerary-cropped.svg: what data source was used to create this map?
  • File:Schall.jpg needs US PD tag and page number
  • File:Oboi.jpg has double of one licensing tag and needs a US PD tag
  • File:《孝庄文皇后常服像》局部.jpg should not have PD-self but needs US PD tag
  • File:《孝惠章皇后朝服像》.jpg has a doubled licensing tag but needs a US PD tag
...which he did from 1644 to 1661. - I might append this onto the following sentence. The first sentence is pretty long..... different solution, but ok.
From 1643 until Dorgon's death in 1650, political power lay mostly in the hands of Dorgon. - it'd be good to find a way to not have "Dorgon" mentioned twice in this sentence.
  • Thank you! You're right, these two sentences need work. I kept "which he did from 1644 to 1661" in the first sentence, but removed "a Manchu of the Aisin Gioro clan" from that sentence to make it shorter. I also reworded the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph, the one with two Dorgons in it. In the process, I realized the lead could be further improved, so I added a few things here and there to make the 2nd paragraph flow better. The diff for all the changes is here. Let me know what you think! Madalibi (talk) 01:19, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They're ok, now where was I.......

...a highly contagious disease that was endemic in China, but against which the Manchus had no immunity. - I'd remove this - endemism means found somewhere and nowhere else (not true for the cosmopolitan smallpox), and many many people had little immunity to smallpox. The disease is well-known enough that a bluelink suffices.
  • There's a small but significant scholarly litterature that points to the Manchus' lack of immunity against smallpox. (For a small sample, scroll down to the "smallpox" section.) Smallpox was dangerous enough for everybody, but for the Manchus it was almost always lethal, so the Manchus and their Mongol and Tibetan guests in Beijing were particularly fearful of it. I allude to this in the lead because I think it's an interesting and little-known tidbit about Qing history. You're right about "endemism": the endemism page is about biological species and is therefore the wrong link. I replaced it with a piped link to Endemic (epidemiology), which claims that an infection is endemic in a population "when that infection is maintained in the population without the need for external inputs." Let me know what you think! Madalibi (talk) 03:27, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
ok, I'll pay that> Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:15, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"was poised to deliver the final blow to the beleaguered Ming dynasty," - can be rewritten without quotes
"the only reasonably undamaged structure" - can be rewritten without quotes
Dorgon issued "the most untimely promulgation of his career": - dequote and rephrase.
"a humiliating act of degradation" - dequote and rephrase.
"was tantamount to the loss of their manhood." - dequote and rephrase.
"broke the momentum of the Qing conquest." - dequote and rephrase.
These massacres ended "active loyalist resistance" - dequote and rephrase.
at least "signify a form of passive resistance to foreign domination." - dequote and rephrase.
This edict "opened a Pandora's box of literati politics" - dequote and rephrase.
He discussed "history, classics, and politics" - no need for quotes here.
"smallpox avoidance centers" - no need for quotes here (?).
  • I think this one should be kept for three reasons: (1) this is an unfamiliar concept that is first introduced here; (2) it's a translation and the original Chinese is cited; and (3) the quotation marks attibute the translation to the source cited in the note. Let me know if you disagree, though. Madalibi (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll pay that. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any possibility of a Legacy section? Did he have any impact on China with his style of rule? Was it reversed after he died? I suspect given his youthful demise this section would be difficult or impossible to write. It makes a nice conclusion to the article.
  • Yes, I agree that some kind of conclusion would be nice. Shunzhi's style of rule was mostly reverted by the Four Regents of the Kangxi Emperor (return of the Manchu aristocracy, purge of eunuchs, great severity toward Chinese literati, dismissal of Jesuit astronomy, etc.), but starting in 1669 the Kangxi Emperor in turn reverted the work of the regents. Writing this kind of section would be feasible, but I would have to find an array of relevant statements from reliable sources, which would take time. Honestly I would prefer to take care of this slowly, that is, after the FAC review if possible! Madalibi (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looking on target for a Featured finish....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:10, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's a shame - I reckon it would really cap the article off nicely. If other folks are not fussed, I won't hold this up, but I do reckon it'd improve the article...Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you put it this way... I'm very tempted to satisfy your interest! How about I write a short narrative coda that will explain what happened to Shunzhi's policies after he died: backlash of the joint regency, followed by Kangxi's consolidation of Qing rule on more Shunzhi-like models (as well as Kangxi's introduction of smallpox variolation for all Manchus, to keep developing that minor theme). This would be easier to write than a "significance" section that would have to take the judgment of many historians into account, though I can eventually integrate that into the article as well. Unfortunately I can't do any of this today, because I have real-life commitments to take care of, but I will try to take care of this in the next few days... Madalibi (talk) 05:23, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think this would be a great improvement to the article. A few days is ok -feel free to alert me on the progress. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:08, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've just completed that last section. I titled it "Legacy," though it could also be called "Aftermath." And you're right, it improves the article by providing some kind of closure. Thanks for pushing me to write it! Madalibi (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
nice job! possibly a little detailed but I can't see waht to leave out...so all good. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography? Congrats on a "rich" (in content and detail) article!

One point, though, is that the Bibliography is great for the 1% or .1% of readers who are grad students preparing for their general exams, but not so much for the 99.9% of readers who just want to know what to read next.

At the least, I suggest removing the items which concern the general Qing or later emperors, beginning with any which mention another emperor in the title. I'd be glad to take on this task at some point, but you might want to do the editing now while you're warmed up and into it. ch (talk) 05:36, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi CH, and thank you for your assessment! This is a great suggestion, but we have to be careful not to mess up the Harvard footnote system that is used here. All titles are cited in at least one footnote, so I can't remove any entry without leaving a footnote orphaned. But there's no reason not to divide the bibliography into "Basic works" and "Other studies cited." Unless someone objects, I will take care of that tomorrow when I have time. Thank you for the useful suggestion! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 10:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • One quibble - can you label the non-English sources in the Bibliography? Also - the usual section title for this would be "References" or "Sources" - see WP:FNNR where Bibliography is discouraged because of the use of that title for a list of works BY the subject of the article.
  • I hope to get back to this for a full prose and content review later, when I'm not trying to get sick.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your suggestions and sorry about the delay. I suddenly got very busy in real life and couldn't reply right away. Anyway I just made the changes you suggested,[5] and I'm looking forward to your more detailed review! Madalibi (talk) 01:08, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments - This article is very good, just a couple of questions:

  • I can't recall exactly, but aren't all eight Manchu Banners established by the 1640s - the "Becoming Emperor" section only notes the allegiance of six of the banners. What happened with the other two? Or were they not involved in the potential succession issue?
You're right, there were Eight Banners by then. (Actually 24 if you count eight Chinese banners and eight Mongol banners!) I didn't mention the blue banners, because the books I read don't mention them when discussing the Shunzhi succession. The Bordered Blue was controlled by Jirgalang, who became one of the two co-regents in 1643. The Plain Blue was originally in Hong Taiji's hands (says Dennerline 2002, p. 74), and it was eventually given to Hooge (Dennerline 2002: 79), but I'm not sure about its status during the succession crisis. Madalibi (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I was just curious. Parsecboy (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was Hooge executed or just his supporters? As it reads now, it sounds like Hooge was just stripped of his titles.
That's right. Hooge took place in several military campaigns between 1644 and 1648, especially against Zhang Xianzhong in Sichuan, as mentioned lower in the article. When he came back to Beijing in early 1648, Dorgon had him imprisoned and Hooge died in jail about a month later. But the account about 1644 is right. Madalibi (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I just wanted to make sure I was reading it right. Parsecboy (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There might be too many images in the article - I'm getting some text sandwiching and some of them are less relevant, like that of the eunuch and the smallpox bacteria. Maybe some should be removed?
I agree that the eunuch picture adds little to the article, so I have removed it.[6] But I really like the smallpox picture because it's so different from the images you usually find in history articles. Instead of removing it, I deleted the picture of the mausoleum,[7] which is not actually that of Shunzhi himself, but another building at the Eastern Qing tombs. (I have a picture of the actual mausoleum here, but it's copyrighted.) I also played around with some other images to reduce the sandwiching problem. Let me know if there are other places you think need improvement. Madalibi (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The section on the emperor's consorts is basically unreferenced. Let me see what I can do... Madalibi (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I just finished adding references to the section on empresses and consorts.[8] I noticed and corrected two or three mistakes in the process, so thanks for asking for these clarifications! Madalibi (talk) 05:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, everything looks good to me now, and my questions have been answered. Moving to support. It's good to see the bio of an early Qing emperor done this well. Parsecboy (talk) 19:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your help and formal support! Madalibi (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate notes

  • Didn't notice a spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing so, as I gather this is the nominator's first FAC, I'd like to see such a check.
I'm not sure how to do this. Most of the books I used in this article are on my bookshelf. What are acceptable ways to do a spotcheck? Should I give you direct citations on a few notes of your choice? Let me know what to do and I will do whatever is necessary. Madalibi (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just sit tight for a bit, a volunteer to do the spotcheck may emerge from among people who've already reviewed, or I might ask around for someone else. In either case online material may be sufficient to get a feel for how accurately the sources have been employed while avoiding close paraphrasing of text -- we'll see. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your explanation. I will wait, then. I'm just worried there are not enough online sources to perform the check conveniently. Piotrus mentioned that very problem above (search for "spot check"). But anyway, I'll just wait! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 04:53, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • A few places I'd expect to see citations but don't:
    • End of third paragraph of Frontiers, tributaries, and foreign relations
I removed this sentence altogether. I think it's accurate, but it's a summary of complex scholarship that would be inconvenient to cite in a single footnote. Madalibi (talk) 08:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Much of the Family section -- if you can demonstrate that all uncited statements have been cited earlier in the article (I know his father is, and the fact that Shunzhi "died of smallpox shortly thereafter") but it's probably simpler to just re-cite these points anyway.
Good point. Give me half an hour... Madalibi (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I just finished adding references to the "Family" section.[9][10] Every non-trivial information should now be referenced. Madalibi (talk) 08:43, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we really need the smallpox image? Don't think it adds much to an already well-illustrated article...
You're the second editor who points this out (after Parsecboy), so maybe this image needs to go after all. I inserted it here because it's different from what you usually see in historical articles, and because many writers have been discussing the role of microbes in history (for example Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel), so I thought it would be nice to see a picture of one of those germs! But I will have no problem removing the image if you think it's superfluous. Madalibi (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, fair enough, it's not a deal-breaker. Tks for all your other responses/actions. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:40, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Over-bolding/over-linking in the Sons section -- other family members' names are not bolded, and we don't need Manchu linked for every Manchu name (not even the first, as it's been linked earlier in the article).
Indeed... Done.[11]
  • Aside from the just-mentioned Manchu language, there are many duplicate links in the article -- you can use the script User:Ucucha/duplinks.js to check for them. Some may be justified but I'd expect the overall number to be reduced.
Thank you for pointing this out to me. With the script's help I've removed a lot of duplicate links.[12] I kept piped links that do not display as the same word––Late Jin and Qing in the first section; Eight Banners and Bannermen further down––as well as links to words whose previous occurrence was several sections above the duplicate link. Let me know if you think further trimming is necessary. Madalibi (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hucker 1985" under citation #19 produces a Harv error -- you can use the script User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js to check for these yourself in future.
Another useful script! Problem corrected.[13] Thank you for all your useful comments. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 07:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

  • Article:On 7 April 1651, barely two months after he seized the reins of government, Shunzhi issued an edict announcing that he would purge corruption from officialdom.[91]
  • Source: "In any case, the campaign to root out corruption began with an imperial edict of April 7, 1651, scarcely two months after the emperor assumed personal control."
  • Article: This edict triggered factional conflicts among literati that would frustrate him until his death.[92]
  • Source: "It signaled a new round of factional fighting among the literati as well".
  • Article: One of his first gestures was to dismiss grand academician Feng Quan (馮銓; 1595–1672), a northern Chinese who had been impeached in 1645 but was allowed to remain in his post by Prince Regent Dorgon.[93]
  • Source: "Most prominent among the officials who were dismissed by this edict was the grand academician Feng Ch'uan."
  • Article: He was even allowed to draft imperial edicts just like Ming Grand Secretaries used to.[96]
  • Source: "By the end of the year he was authorizing grand academicians to draft rescripts. This simple decision not only allowed the emperor ans his closest advisors..."
  • Article: These two institutions based on Ming models further eroded the power of the Manchu elite and threatened to revive the extremes of literati politics that had plagued the late Ming, when factions coalesced around rival grand secretaries.[107]
  • Source: "In 1658 the emperor formally established the Han-Lin Academy and Grand Secretariat on the Ming model, further enhancing the revivial of literati politics."
  • Article: In July 1646, a new Southern Campaign led by Prince Bolo sent Prince Lu's Zhejiang court into disarray and proceeded to attack the Longwu regime in Fujian.[74]
  • Source: "On 10 July (1646), as Ch'ing cavalarymen rode across the river at T'ung-lu, the defending army collapsed and fled in disarray toward Shao-hsing..."
No issues. Graham Colm (talk) 08:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thank you! Madalibi (talk) 11:45, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto, mate. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm probably not supposed to write here now that this FAC is over, but I just wanted to thank all the reviewers for their help and suggestions. Special cheers to those who taught me new skills! I am now a better editor. Gratefully, Madalibi (talk) 00:26, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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