Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Somerset Levels/archive1

Support apart from a couple of minor comments -

  • In the section "Biodiversity and conservation" a paragraph ends "was supported by a grant of £700k grant from Viridor Credits." - I would loose one of the grants to improve flow.
  • I think that "Domesday Book" should be in italics as it is a title.

Keith D (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have removed the second "grant" from that sentence and, although its not a book in the modern sense I have italicised Domesday Book.— Rod talk 18:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support Neutral Leaning oppose. Switched to weak support; weak because although all my concerns have been addressed I feel the prose is not quite as polished as it could be. The article feels a little fragmented in places. I think this is because the topic requires the article to cover so many disparate pieces of information that it's hard to make reading the article feel like a narrative, but I think some more improvements could be made by a good copyeditor thoroughly familiar with the material. However, I do think the article just about reaches the level necessary for FA. Switching to neutral since a map has been drafted; I will take another look tonight. I'm only partway through the article and will try to add more comments over the weekend, but at the moment I am leaning towards opposing. A big issue for me is the lack of a detailed map. The topographic map is fine, and gives the reader a good deal of information, but to a reader unfamiliar with the area the article contains a stream of place names that can’t be positioned. I think a larger scale map would be very helpful, listing as many places that are mentioned in the article as can be reasonably managed. For example, “roughly west of the M5 motorway” is going to be of little help to almost all readers. Along the same lines, I think the lists of village names are unhelpful; not only would a map get rid of the need for these, but perhaps a link to a List of settlements in the Somerset Levels (which doesn't have to exist yet; red links are OK) would be useful for those who want to see the list. Some other issues, mostly fairly minor:

  • The current map says “Poldern” which is presumably a typo.
  • The lead makes it appear that the Sumorsaete explanation for Somerset’s name is just one possibility, but the same story in the body of the article is much more definite. Which is correct?
  • Can any date be given for the palaeolithic tool found in Sedgemoor?
  • The lead needs a comma after "Shapwick Hoard"
  • You might consider mentioning Alfred and Athelney in the lead, though the lead is already quite long; perhaps it's my own bias but I think that's quite a well-known story
  • "The area has been extensively studied for its ... heritage": what does this mean?
  • There is substantial evidence in the main body to support the claim that "The area has been extensively studied for its biodiversity and heritage, and has a growing tourism industry." but it could be removed from the lead if required?— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    My concern was that "heritage" is a very vague word, and introducing it in this way in the lead wasn't very informative. I will finish going through the rest of the article and see if I can come up with a constructive suggestion. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 17:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I've struck this; there's sufficient support in the body, as you say. I don't particularly like this use of "heritage" without qualification but that might be just me. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 10:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Geography section starts with “The Levels and Moors are”, and the next paragraph starts with “The Levels are”, giving a completely different definition. I think this is technically correct, if I understand the intent, but it is very confusing to a reader.
  • To me it is clear that the wider levels and moors area contains both the levels and the moors. How would you suggest it is clarified?— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Before reading the article I had never heard that the levels were correctly called the Levels and Moors; I didn't know there was a difference. On seeing that there was, I assumed that the moors would be higher land, since that's a normal interpretation for the word "moor". The first paragraph defines the whole of the Levels and Moors, and I had no trouble with that. Then, since the article is in fact titled "Somerset Levels", not "Somerset Levels and Moors", I assumed that the next paragraph, starting "The Levels are" was also about the entire area. As I said, I can see that this is technically perfectly correct, but I hope you can understand my confusion.
    Perhaps it would help to reverse the order? Suppose the first sentence of the first paragraph were something like: "The Levels and Moors are a largely flat area, with the "Moors" referring to the inland plains, and the "Levels" referring to a coastal sand and clay barrier, roughly west of the M5 motorway"? That can no doubt be improved (I don't like using "referring" twice like that) but sets the context for the reader to see that two different things are about to be discussed; then "Levels and Moors" can be used to refer to both together. That would require a little rework of the subsequent sentences, but not too much, I think. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 15:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The southern area the civil parish of Aller" – missing a word or some punctuation?
  • "has been a major port and trading centre”: probably better as "was at one time"
  • "the arrival of the railway in 1841 made this the furthest navigable point": I'm not sure what this means -- furthest navigable would imply something to do with navigation up the Axe, but why would a railway have anything to do with that?
  • The source quoted is somewhat unhelpful. I'm not sure that the editor who used it understood the context. The status of the port appears to be unchanged. The Axe in those days (1840s) would have been used by sailing vessels, so it is possible that they could have travelled up river beyond the port before the railway line "blocked" the route. Changing timscale, the Axe was certainly navigable to Glastonbury Abbey in the Medieval period: that is well documented (but its not in this article and I did not add that section of text, but I do have the reference(s)). I can add it if you like. Pyrotec (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it's a key piece of information, so if the source doesn't give enough information to allow you to use it effectively I'd suggest just cutting it. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 02:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've done a further copy edit. Pyrotec (talk) 12:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's much clearer. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 00:11, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The mention of the Azores High (and that's probably a better link than just to the Azores is not supported by the given reference, as far as I can see; I don't doubt it, but it needs a source. Similarly, you're using that reference for the statement that most rainfall is caused by Atlantic depressions, but I don't see that in the source.
  • It is sourced in the archive version of the Met Office site which I've added as a reference.— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I've just realized that in fact your original source (footnote 32) was fine -- within the page are multiple tabs, and the rainfall and sunshine tab cover everything you give. I was only looking at the first tab. So I think you can get rid of the new footnote 33 (and in fact one of those footnote 33 links doesn't work for me -- I get page not found). Perhaps a comment could be added in the footnote that the reader should look at the rainfall and sunshine tabs? Mike Christie (talklibrary) 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you need a source to say that the Levels are a good place to see a Fata Morgana; the source you have just talks about the mirages themselves.
  • "A salt-making industry was set up near Highbridge": this is followed by another sentence saying the same thing in a different way, from the same source. I think this could just be cut.
  • "may have been linked to this industry, or to the associated local minting and counterfeiting operation": does "this industry" refer to the salt extraction industry? There's an intervening sentence about other settlements so I wanted to check, but if so that's fine. Also, what's the source for there being an associated minting and counterfeiting operation? The source given just covers the details of the hoard itself.
  • The citation (77) refers to both archaelogical evidence, i.e. pottery, dated to the Roman era found and recorded at some 20 sites in the locality, and an area marked as "The Saltings" on an 1886 map. The latter is likely to be possibly 18th-19th century. (It's not in the article, but brine was discovered in 1910 and extracted commercially at Puriton for a few years - but its obviously not the site refered to at Burham / Highbridge). Pyrotec (talk) 12:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The area has few wooded areas": needs rewording.
  • Any particular reason why "Cider" is capitalized in the Land use section? And "Scrumpy"? I think these are normally lower case.
  • "over 60% of Somerset's orchards were intentionally destroyed" is a bit of an odd way to phrase it; I assume that farmers have given up the orchards because they are not a good investment of the land. If the sources support that, I'd suggest a rephrasing to clarify the reason: perhaps "Since the early 1960s over 60% of the orchards have been converted to more profitable uses of the land".
  • You use Williams and Williams for much of the second paragraph of Land use, including a statement that local industries are "now" in serious decline. Since the source is almost twenty years old, I think it would be better to make this "as of the early 1990s"; a more recent source would of course be even better.
  • I think it would be useful to add the dates of the project to the paragraph on the Shapwick Project.

-- More over the next day or so, as I have time. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 23:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've completed a pass through. If the above (minor) issues are resolved, and some form of map is added which lets a reader locate many of the settlements mentioned, I think I would be ready to change to weak support. My main remaining concern is that the prose is somewhat bitty. This is to some degree a natural consequence of the topic, which requires you to cover a great many disconnected bits of information under a single heading, but I do feel the prose is less than optimal. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 01:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments (which I will address individually) however with reference to the village names and a map - List of locations in the Somerset Levels does exist and includes settlements, as well as individuals named moors and minor rivers and drainage channels. It is linked from the see also section. As discussed above map making is beyond my skills, but the editor who did make it did suggest not making it too cluttered.— Rod talk 09:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry -- I missed that list; I will take a look. As for a map, there are a couple of options to create maps -- User:Kmusser creates top-quality maps on request; and there are also people at the Graphics Lab who can provide maps. I really think they would be a big asset to the article. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 14:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The typo on the map has been fixed. As for what else is wanted from a map, one image can and should only do so much. The current map shows the physical geography reasonably well. Adding a political map to the settlements section would be most appropriate (in the style of the one at List of windmills in Essex) is a sensible way to show the location of the settlements. And if you want a map that shows "everything" a crop of this would do that.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A crop of the OS map would definitely be helpful; I think that would address a lot of my concerns. The style of the Essex map you give is a bit less helpful, in my eyes, because the reader has to go back and forth between the caption and the map to understand the relative positions of the named places. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Essex map uses numerical captions (to avoid overwhelming the map), but clearly the labels could be put on the image, instead of the caption. My thinking is that the map should be usable at the size it is displayed in the article - if the reader has to click away from the article to interpret it, that's a significant drawback. The harder question is how big the map should be in article - too small its useless, too big it overwhelms the article. FWIW, that OS map is freely licenced and can be utilised.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some points on the map of the talk page to show what towns & villages could be included.— Rod talk 18:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the map should be usable at the size it is displayed in the article; but surely an article that is specifically about a geographical area makes the best possible case for a large map that spans the width of the screen? If I were reading a physical article about the levels, in a magazine, I would be grateful for a full page map, and I'd keep a finger in that page and constantly flip to it whenever I wanted to check where the Pillrow Cut joined the Brue and the Axe, or to see where it was that Alfred burned the cakes. Perhaps other readers don't read that way, so please push back on these comments if you really don't feel a detailed map is necessary, but I think it would be a big plus. I do like the purely topographic map at the top, which sets the stage for the discussion of the geography, but the Settlements section could easily start with a large map to help the reader locate all these places. The map that is being assembled on the talk page is certainly helpful, and I may support with just that (though I still need to go through the rest of the article), but I think bigger is better here. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 00:22, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've now added the map & removed the "list" sentences naming the villages.— Rod talk 10:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Switched to weak support above. Mike Christie (talklibrary) 10:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with one minor query.
''The Peat Moors Centre to the west of Glastonbury was dedicated to the archaeology, history and geology of the area. It also included reconstructions of some of the archaeological discoveries, including a number of Iron Age round houses and the world's oldest engineered highway, the Sweet Track. From time to time the centre offers courses in a number of ancient technologies in subjects including textiles, clothing and basket making, as well as staging various open days, displays and demonstrations. In February 2009 Somerset County Council, the owners of the Peat Moors Centre, announced their intention of closing the centre and it finally shut on 31 October 2009 The centre "was", but " From time to time the centre offers", then "it finally shut on 31 October 2009".
done
Otherwise prose is good, well referenced and comprehensive coverage of the subject. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment (& support). I have changed offers to offered.— Rod talk 17:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good, that was the only issue I noted. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have reinstated cider as the word is used to describe a number of different drinks across the world e.g. fizzy fruit drinks in Japan, or apple juice in the USA. I think a link is perfectly justified. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 11:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"grass" probably doesn't need to be linked but perhaps "Teazel" in the first para of the lead should be linked - and should be in lowercase. Aa77zz (talk) 11:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uncertain if this belongs in Geology or Geography-- move if needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say Geography as, although the geology is important, it also covers human geography, natural history etc.— Rod talk 18:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.