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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Somerset Levels/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:13, 26 March 2011 [1].

Somerset Levels

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Somerset Levels (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): — Rod talk 20:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Somerset Levels cover a large area of low lying wetland, with complex geology and ecology. Man has been living on the Levels since the Paleolithic era, with many loosing their lives in floods, and trying to drain the area for about a thousand years. Its even been the site of several battles - so there is something in the article for almost everyone.

To reach FA quality has been a long process with gradual improvement since it achieved GA back in the summer of 2007. Recent work has included a helpful peer review by Finetooth and an extensive copy edit by Malleus Fatuorum, along with input from several other editors and a push on the referencing. I now feel it meets the FA criteria and would welcome your comments.— Rod talk 20:30, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see now. You are suggesting an inset showing the position in the British Isles. I have asked User:Nilfanion who created the map for this article whether it would be possible to add this. If not I will contact the map workshop.— Rod talk 13:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disambig/External Link check - no dabs, but a couple of dead external links- [2] and [3]. this one also hit its bandwidth limit, but I'm sure it will return. 1 external redirect which may lead to link rot; see it with the tool in the upper right of this page. --PresN 00:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these checks - all were working fine a few days ago when I last checked them.
  • The Langport and River Parrett Visitor Centre seems to be affected by the use of toolserver looking to the server as if they are redirects. It gives error 302 "Excessed redirect limit (8)" but if you click on the URL directly it works without problems.
  • The Brent Knoll link works fine for me
  • I'm not sure about the Drainage Boards Newsletter bandwidth problem. The top level of that domain gives the same error, even though it is a .gov.uk (government) domain. I will check again in a day or two to see if the problem has resolved.
  • The 8x redirect was ending up at their main page yesterday; seems to be fine now as does the mysteriousbritain one. I do actually click on the links, the tool server has quirks sometimes. As to the BBC one, I know about the /1/ versus /2/ just being which server it sends you to, but the actual redirect I meant was the /uk/ being changed to /uk_news/. Whatever, It's not a big deal in this case. --PresN 20:15, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • Earwig's and Coren's tools found only mirrors. Manual spotchecking not done yet - I'll try to do the next couple of days
  • I'm somewhat confused as to the purpose of your Bibliography section - some of these sources are cited in References, but include full bibliographic information there, while others are not cited anywhere. I also see discrepancies in citation formatting in this section, and some slight variations between identical entries in Bibliography and References - for example, what is the actual title of the Havinden work? This section needs work
  • As far as I can see, Havinden (1970) is correctly transcibed using the {{cite book}} template. The title is "The Somerset Landscape", it is one volume of a series entitled: "The making of the English landscape". What exactly is your concern? Pyrotec (talk) 08:55, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed this to further reading - the intention is to give details of other relevant sources which are not directly referenced in the text. I have removed those which are now used as references and hopefully improved the format.
  • Be consistent in whether you include counties for English publisher locations, or indeed whether you include publisher locations at all
  • I have removed place of publication for consistency
  • Use a consistent format for references with multiple authors
  • I have revised these - hopefully got them all
  • Missed a few - for example 34 and 36
  • Hopefully fixed now.
  • All citations to books should have page numbers
  • I believe all the books now have page numbers
  • Missed a few here - for example 37. Also, make sure page ranges use ndashes and single pages don't use "pp."
  • I have never understood the mdash v ndash argument but have used citation bot which has hopefully fixed these and found one occurrence of pp for a single page - if there are others I can't see them.— Rod talk 08:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have a copy of Hollinrake, Charles; Hollinrake, Nancy (2007). "Chapter 9: The Water Roads of Somerset". In Blair, John (ed.). Waterways and Canal-Building in Medieval England. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-921715-1. to hand but will ask for help or get a copy from the library.— Rod talk 08:35, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's good that you indicate format for PDF sources, but you should do the same for doc files
  • I could only find one .doc & have added format= to this one
  • Spell out or link acronyms like ONS on first appearance
  • Done - hopefully got them all
  • I'm having some issues with the webcitation.org links - they don't seem to be loading for me
  • Work OK for me but can be a bit slow
  • Use consistent names for things. For example, Dovecote Press or The Dovecote Press Ltd.?
  • Consistency improved
  • Still needs work - for example, ref 17 uses "Dovecote Press", 21 uses "The Dovecote Press Ltd." and 71 uses "Dovecote press". Rechecked 04:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC), still not done
  • Be consistent on what is linked when, what is italicized, etc - lots of minor inconsistencies
  • Several were in italics as work= had been used rather than publisher= - hopefully got them all now
  • Also check date formatting, how you format works within larger works, etc
  • Sorry I can't see this error
  • For example, ref 18 uses "28 January 2010" and ref 19 uses "2011-02 24"; ref 37 uses "In Blair, John" and ref 132 uses "In B. Purdy"
  • Requested changes Done, but I'm not sure why an accessdate is considered necessary (ignoring date consistency for the moment) for a map that exists in paper form - it has an isbn after all. Pyrotec (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have replaced this source as same information is available in the English Nature "Conservation Profile" document
  • Check formatting on Ashe
  • Changed
  • According to this page the content on the site is based on Cope, Julian (2011). The Modern Antiquarian: A Pre-millennial Odyssey Through Megalithic Britain : Including a Gazetteer to Over 300 Prehistoric Sites. Thorsons. ISBN 978-0722535998. However I don't have a copy of the book so I'm relying on the web site for this citation, however I was worried about sourcing legends about giants so gave three references.
  • I agree that this isn't reliable, since the it is SPS. I noticed that the 'Landscape of King Arthur' mentioned in a post is on google books though (only in snippet view) but you can confirm that the post is a faithful copy and then cite the book instead. SmartSE (talk) 11:23, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would agree this is a commercial site selling coins. I could not find another source for the specific age of the coins in the Shapwick Hoard. I will remove that information if required.
  • It is the site of a campaign group - only used to support the claim that there had been local opposition to the electricity cables. The other details about the proposals are covered in the next ref (currently 115) from the BBC
  • Spell out journal names (ex. Topham)
  • Done
  • Publisher for ref 106?
  • Done (this was a formatting error using a capital P for publisher=)

I've done a few spotchecks now, and am concerned:

  • "about 6 metres (20 ft) above mean sea level (roughly west of the M5 motorway). The inland Moors can be 6 metres (20 ft) below peak tides" - not in source
  • That has been added since this FAC nomination. I believe it is an accurate description & I will look for a source and contact the editor concerned.
  • I reworded the section and added a citation to cover it. It currently states: "The Levels are a coastal sand and clay barrier about 6 metres (20 ft) above mean sea level (O.D.) (roughly west of the M5 motorway). The general elevation of the inland Moors is 3 to 3.7 metres (10 to 12 ft) O.D. and with peak tides of 7.6 to 7.9 metres (25 to 26 ft) O.D. recorded at Bridgwater and Burnham On Sea, respectively, the inland Moors lie below peak tides.(Ref)". Pyrotec (talk) 21:02, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Brent Knoll has been inhabited since at least the Bronze Age" - source?
  • Reference added
  • "shows a seasonal and a diurnal variation, but due to the modifying effect of the sea the range is less than in most other parts of the UK" vs "Temperature shows both a seasonal and a diurnal variation, but due to the modifying effect of the sea the range is less than in most other parts of the UK" - very close paraphrasing
  • "January is the coldest month with mean minimum temperatures between 1 °C (33.8 °F) and 2 °C (35.6 °F). July and August are the warmest months in the region with mean daily maxima around 21 °C (69.8 °F)." vs "January is the coldest month with mean minimum temperatures between 1 and 2 °C." and "July and August are the warmest months in the region with mean daily maxima ranging from around 19 °C"
  • "The south-west of England has a favoured location with respect to the Azores high pressure when it extends its influence north-eastwards towards the UK, particularly in summer." vs "The south west of England has a favoured location with respect to the Azores high pressure when it extends its influence north eastwards towards the UK particularly in summer"
  • "Rainfall tends to be associated with Atlantic depressions or with convection. The Atlantic depressions are more vigorous in autumn and winter and most of the rain which falls in those seasons in the south-west is from this source." vs "Rainfall tends to be associated with Atlantic depressions or with convection. The Atlantic depressions are more vigorous in autumn and winter and most of the rain which falls in those seasons in the south west is from this source"

Neutral - the major concerns above and the egregious instances of close paraphrasing found on earlier spotchecks have been addressed. However, I have not checked every source, and among those I did check I still found some information not supported by the source (for example, "In December 1998, there were 20 days without sun recorded at Yeovilton"). Good work has been done so for, but more is still needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:15, 5 March 2011 (UTC) Oppose. Too many instances of close paraphrasing/plagiarism. I've only checked a few sources; this article needs to be checked top to bottom for plagiarism, and potentially for copyvio issues. There are also some issues with sources not supported the material they cite. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • The paragraph about climate which is all cited to the single Met Office source has been used on several geography articles in this part of the country (egs Glastonbury (GA), Somerset, Mendip Hills & Exmoor (which are all FAs) & copied many times (with little or no variation) so it is difficult to identify exactly where it was first written, although I probably copied it into this article and should have checked. I will reword this to remove the close paraphrasing & then try to find all the others which use it and revise those as well. Thank you for all your comments.— Rod talk 18:43, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now reworded the climate paragraph and replaced the copyvio/close paraphrase paragraph on 40+ other articles which all use it. Thanks for spotting this it was obviously more widely used than I realised.— Rod talk 22:12, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

SupportQuery I've made a few tweaks, hope you like them, if not well it is a wiki...

  1. "A number of Saxon charters document the incorporation of areas of moor in estates, with several towns, villages and hill forts being built on the natural "islands" of slightly raised land," This seems to be combining two different things, a settlement pattern that is skewed towards higher land and the Anglo Saxon changes. Hill forts elsewhere are not usually of Anglo-Saxon origin, could you check this please. resolved now thanks
  2. There is some overlinking such as bird, by all means link where you have a relevant link, but if I see bird linked in an article I rather expect it to be piped to an article about the bird life of that area rather than birds generally. I've fixed some of these, also generally we should link the first occurrence and repeat sparingly where relevant and much further down the article.
  3. "which the Lords supported but the Commoners opposed" it isn't clear to me whether this is talking about local Lords and Commoners or the houses of Lords and Commons. If the former I suggest adding the word local, if the latter I suggest replacing Commoners with a piped link to Commons.
  4. The map is helpful at least as far as the river system goes, but doesn't show many of the features and places mentioned in the article, nor does it show the area of the levels -one shade of green is clearly the lowest land but it is not stated what the maximum height is of this colour and therefore whether this coincides with the levels.

ϢereSpielChequers 16:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments and edits (all of which seem fine to me). I have revised the conflation of Saxon charters & hillforts, changing the chronology in both lead & appropriate section. I've just checked with a couple of the relevant books & it was "local" lords, at the request of the king - commoners were worried about loosing grazing rights. Some overlinking has been reduced since your comment and I will look for others. I have asked Nilfanion about a key for the map giving the heights the coulours represent, but what other features and places would you like to see included, without overcrowding the map? - perhaps I should change this to a lead image and increase its size?— Rod talk 18:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for fixing the hillforts bit, and explaining the commoners - I've added the grazing rights bit. Ideally the map should show the levels themselves as they are the subject of the article, and the features - villages, rivers and motorway referred to in the article. The more incidental the mention of an item the less important to include it on the map - so the listed villages are unimportant as would be a place like Wells which is on the map you are using, but is only mentioned once. ϢereSpielChequers 23:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved the map to the lead & made it bigger. The significant rivers are included, so do you feel the M5 motorway should be included & which villages?. I've added the heights the colours represent - but not sure of the best way to do this in the caption.— Rod talk 08:23, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Currently the scale is a tad overwhelming, and I'm pretty sure that the lowest altitude bit covers rather more than just the levels. I think that the motorway is such a feature of the modern day that it should be in, but this is one of those articles that would really benefit from different maps for different eras, or one of those graphics that changes over time, in this case showing the flooding of the land in the mesolithic, the Roman era, the post roman era, the Anglo-saxon era etc. Of course that depends on whether it can be done and whether it can be sourced - so I wouldn't oppose FA status for the lack of it. Different maps for different eras would enable you to depict more info without cluttering one map and would give a great way to show the fluctuating shoreline and extent of things like the great flood ϢereSpielChequers 17:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • That information exists in graphical form in, "Williams (1970) The Draining of the Somerset Levels" for instance, but under UK copyright law that book is still in Copyright: it is claimed by Cambridge University (not the author). Any work based on it would be regarded as a derivative work and would therefore not be copyfree. Pyrotec (talk) 22:30, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved to support per the improved mapping. I'd have liked to see a map that actually shows the levels themselves, but accept that we can't use what isn't available under an appropriate licence. ϢereSpielChequers 13:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Regarding the map, the yellow region on this map is the Somerset Levels and Moors Natural Area (That data is not free, so cannot be used here). The 10m contour is possibly a better match to that region in some places, but to split 0-20 to 0-10 and 10-20 could unbalance the map by giving undue weight to the lower altitudes. As it is the map reflects the information in the lead section, the hills and the rivers - the physical geography. I'm not convinced the M5 is that relevant, its an important road, but its merely something that passes through and has no apparent significance to the Levels themselves. For that matter, the Willow Man is more relevant to the Levels than the motorway. That said, if including the road network (not just the M5) would provide helpful context to the map then it is worth including.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Resolved comments from Reaper Eternal}}
Comments by Reaper Eternal

I try to be direct in addressing issues, so I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt. I'm not commenting on anybody personally!

  • 1st paragraph of "Settlements" section: "Small villages in the centre of the Levels include: Burtle, Catcott, Chilton Polden, Cossington, Edington, Greinton, Lympsham, Mark, Meare, Middlezoy, Moorlinch, Othery, Pawlett, Puriton, Shapwick, Sharpham, Stawell, Stoke St Gregory, Weare, Wedmore, Westhay, Westonzoyland and Woolavington." Unsourced. (Maybe needs {{cite map}}?)
  • Cite map reference added
  • 2nd paragraph of "Settlements" section: "It is a natural hill of Triassic sandstone capped by Keuper marl. Excavations showed evidence of a 12th-century masonry building on the top of the hill. The northern edge of the Levels approaches the southern slopes of the Mendip Hills; from west to east it contains the settlements of Compton Bishop, Axbridge, Cheddar, Rodney Stoke, Westbury-sub-Mendip, and Wookey." Is this covered by ref #22 in paragraph #3? If so, the reference needs to be added to the end of this paragraph too.
  • Two references added about Burrow Mump
  • 3rd paragraph of "Settlements" section: "The position of the town on the edge of the Somerset Levels has resulted in a history dominated by land reclamation and sea defences since Roman times." Who says this? You need a source.
  • Reference added
  • 3rd paragraph of "Settlements" section: "Burnham was seriously affected by the Bristol Channel floods of 1607, and various flood defences have been installed since then. A concrete sea wall was built in 1911, and after the Second World War further additions to the defences were made, using the remains of a Mulberry harbour; the present curved concrete wall was completed in 1988. Highbridge, which neighbours Burnham, is near the mouth of the River Brue and the villages of East and West Huntspill." This is also unsourced.
  • References added for flood & sea defences
  • 1st paragraph of "Climate" section: "Along with the rest of South West England the Somerset Levels..." Comma needed after England. "In December 1998 there were..." Comma needed after 1998. "In summer a large proportion..." Comma needed after summer. There are more related issues with comma use, and I am willing to copyedit the article if the nominator wants.
  • I'm never sure about too many comma's and tend to go with the copy editing of Malleus Fatuorum and others, but I would be happy to accept your kind offer.
  • 5th paragraph of "Drainage" section: "The first steam pumping station was Westonzoyland Pumping Station in 1830, followed by more effective ones from 1860. Automatic electric pumps are used today." Unsourced.
  • Reference added
  • 6th paragraph of "Drainage" section: "Water levels are managed by the Levels Internal Drainage Boards (IDBs)..." Apostrophe needed.
  • I'm not sure about apostrophes for plural abbreviations either, but I've added them.
  • "Sea defences" section: The picture breaks the formatting on my computer. You probably should add a {{clear}} at the end of the paragraph.
  • added
  • 1st paragraph, "Sea defences" section: "Much of the area is at, or only slightly above, mean sea level, and thus was frequently flooded by the sea, a problem that was not fully resolved until the sea defences were enhanced in the early 20th century. The Parrett is the only river in the Level and Moors that does not have a clyse on it." This paragraph is completely unreferenced.
  • I've rewritten this section. The referencing is now better: but, I've using 40-year old references. I need to add a more recent one, and a reviewer would (obviously) expect to see one (or more). (Note to Rod: I hope to find one at the EA-but you tend to be quicker than me at web searching). Pyrotec (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Teazel growing" section: This isn't really an issue, but could you expand this one-liner section?
  • 3rd paragraph, "Biodiversity and conservation" section: "there is currently no single conservation designation covering the Levels and Moors." This is unreferenced.
  • I'm not sure how there can be, as the absence of a single designation is the issue - the various designations which do apply to parts of the levels are included.
  • Natural England has a designation "Natural Area" that applies to this. (See page #7 [4].) Also, this book mentions that SSSIs are patchy on the Levels & Moors, which would indicate a lack of one continuous designation. Apart from these, I can agree that such a reference might prove impossible to find, since it is a reference for a lack of information. Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3rd paragraph, "Tourism" section: "It has been designated by English Heritage as a grade I listed building,[142] and is a Scheduled Ancient Monument." Does ref #142 apply to the Scheduled Ancient Monument phrase? Also, what is the number? (I know this can be very hard to impossible to find, and definitely will not oppose if you cannot.)
  • Reference moved to the end of the sentence as it says it is an SAM but I haven't been able to find the number.
  • 3rd paragraph, "Tourism" section: "The barn and courtyard contain displays of farm machinery from the Victorian and early 20th-century periods. Other exhibits show local crafts, including willow coppicing, mud horse fishing on the flats of Bridgwater Bay, peat digging on the Somerset Levels, and the production of milk, cheese, and cider. In reconstructed rooms detailing domestic life in the nearby village of Butleigh, the story of one farm worker, John Hodges, is told from cradle to grave. Outside, there is a beehive and rare breeds of poultry and sheep in the cider apple orchard." This description is not sourced.
Additional comments from Reaper Eternal
  • 3rd paragraph, "Settlements" section: "Highbridge, which neighbours Burnham, is near the mouth of the River Brue and the villages of East and West Huntspill." This probably needs a {{cite map}}.
  • cite map added
  • 1st paragraph, "Tourism" section: There are a large number of (1234 mi, 1974 km). This should probably be changed to ({{convert|1234|mi|km|disp=comma|abbr=on}}).
|}

Support apart from a couple of minor comments -

  • In the section "Biodiversity and conservation" a paragraph ends "was supported by a grant of £700k grant from Viridor Credits." - I would loose one of the grants to improve flow.
  • I think that "Domesday Book" should be in italics as it is a title.

Keith D (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I have removed the second "grant" from that sentence and, although its not a book in the modern sense I have italicised Domesday Book.— Rod talk 18:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Weak support Neutral Leaning oppose. Switched to weak support; weak because although all my concerns have been addressed I feel the prose is not quite as polished as it could be. The article feels a little fragmented in places. I think this is because the topic requires the article to cover so many disparate pieces of information that it's hard to make reading the article feel like a narrative, but I think some more improvements could be made by a good copyeditor thoroughly familiar with the material. However, I do think the article just about reaches the level necessary for FA. Switching to neutral since a map has been drafted; I will take another look tonight. I'm only partway through the article and will try to add more comments over the weekend, but at the moment I am leaning towards opposing. A big issue for me is the lack of a detailed map. The topographic map is fine, and gives the reader a good deal of information, but to a reader unfamiliar with the area the article contains a stream of place names that can’t be positioned. I think a larger scale map would be very helpful, listing as many places that are mentioned in the article as can be reasonably managed. For example, “roughly west of the M5 motorway” is going to be of little help to almost all readers. Along the same lines, I think the lists of village names are unhelpful; not only would a map get rid of the need for these, but perhaps a link to a List of settlements in the Somerset Levels (which doesn't have to exist yet; red links are OK) would be useful for those who want to see the list. Some other issues, mostly fairly minor:

  • The current map says “Poldern” which is presumably a typo.
  • The lead makes it appear that the Sumorsaete explanation for Somerset’s name is just one possibility, but the same story in the body of the article is much more definite. Which is correct?
  • Can any date be given for the palaeolithic tool found in Sedgemoor?
  • The lead needs a comma after "Shapwick Hoard"
  • You might consider mentioning Alfred and Athelney in the lead, though the lead is already quite long; perhaps it's my own bias but I think that's quite a well-known story
  • "The area has been extensively studied for its ... heritage": what does this mean?
  • There is substantial evidence in the main body to support the claim that "The area has been extensively studied for its biodiversity and heritage, and has a growing tourism industry." but it could be removed from the lead if required?— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    My concern was that "heritage" is a very vague word, and introducing it in this way in the lead wasn't very informative. I will finish going through the rest of the article and see if I can come up with a constructive suggestion. Mike Christie (talk – library) 17:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I've struck this; there's sufficient support in the body, as you say. I don't particularly like this use of "heritage" without qualification but that might be just me. Mike Christie (talk – library) 10:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Geography section starts with “The Levels and Moors are”, and the next paragraph starts with “The Levels are”, giving a completely different definition. I think this is technically correct, if I understand the intent, but it is very confusing to a reader.
  • To me it is clear that the wider levels and moors area contains both the levels and the moors. How would you suggest it is clarified?— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Before reading the article I had never heard that the levels were correctly called the Levels and Moors; I didn't know there was a difference. On seeing that there was, I assumed that the moors would be higher land, since that's a normal interpretation for the word "moor". The first paragraph defines the whole of the Levels and Moors, and I had no trouble with that. Then, since the article is in fact titled "Somerset Levels", not "Somerset Levels and Moors", I assumed that the next paragraph, starting "The Levels are" was also about the entire area. As I said, I can see that this is technically perfectly correct, but I hope you can understand my confusion.
    Perhaps it would help to reverse the order? Suppose the first sentence of the first paragraph were something like: "The Levels and Moors are a largely flat area, with the "Moors" referring to the inland plains, and the "Levels" referring to a coastal sand and clay barrier, roughly west of the M5 motorway"? That can no doubt be improved (I don't like using "referring" twice like that) but sets the context for the reader to see that two different things are about to be discussed; then "Levels and Moors" can be used to refer to both together. That would require a little rework of the subsequent sentences, but not too much, I think. Mike Christie (talk – library) 15:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The southern area the civil parish of Aller" – missing a word or some punctuation?
  • "has been a major port and trading centre”: probably better as "was at one time"
  • "the arrival of the railway in 1841 made this the furthest navigable point": I'm not sure what this means -- furthest navigable would imply something to do with navigation up the Axe, but why would a railway have anything to do with that?
  • The source quoted is somewhat unhelpful. I'm not sure that the editor who used it understood the context. The status of the port appears to be unchanged. The Axe in those days (1840s) would have been used by sailing vessels, so it is possible that they could have travelled up river beyond the port before the railway line "blocked" the route. Changing timscale, the Axe was certainly navigable to Glastonbury Abbey in the Medieval period: that is well documented (but its not in this article and I did not add that section of text, but I do have the reference(s)). I can add it if you like. Pyrotec (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it's a key piece of information, so if the source doesn't give enough information to allow you to use it effectively I'd suggest just cutting it. Mike Christie (talk – library) 02:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've done a further copy edit. Pyrotec (talk) 12:25, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's much clearer. Mike Christie (talk – library) 00:11, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The mention of the Azores High (and that's probably a better link than just to the Azores is not supported by the given reference, as far as I can see; I don't doubt it, but it needs a source. Similarly, you're using that reference for the statement that most rainfall is caused by Atlantic depressions, but I don't see that in the source.
  • It is sourced in the archive version of the Met Office site which I've added as a reference.— Rod talk 11:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I've just realized that in fact your original source (footnote 32) was fine -- within the page are multiple tabs, and the rainfall and sunshine tab cover everything you give. I was only looking at the first tab. So I think you can get rid of the new footnote 33 (and in fact one of those footnote 33 links doesn't work for me -- I get page not found). Perhaps a comment could be added in the footnote that the reader should look at the rainfall and sunshine tabs? Mike Christie (talk – library) 15:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you need a source to say that the Levels are a good place to see a Fata Morgana; the source you have just talks about the mirages themselves.
  • "A salt-making industry was set up near Highbridge": this is followed by another sentence saying the same thing in a different way, from the same source. I think this could just be cut.
  • "may have been linked to this industry, or to the associated local minting and counterfeiting operation": does "this industry" refer to the salt extraction industry? There's an intervening sentence about other settlements so I wanted to check, but if so that's fine. Also, what's the source for there being an associated minting and counterfeiting operation? The source given just covers the details of the hoard itself.
  • The citation (77) refers to both archaelogical evidence, i.e. pottery, dated to the Roman era found and recorded at some 20 sites in the locality, and an area marked as "The Saltings" on an 1886 map. The latter is likely to be possibly 18th-19th century. (It's not in the article, but brine was discovered in 1910 and extracted commercially at Puriton for a few years - but its obviously not the site refered to at Burham / Highbridge). Pyrotec (talk) 12:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The area has few wooded areas": needs rewording.
  • Any particular reason why "Cider" is capitalized in the Land use section? And "Scrumpy"? I think these are normally lower case.
  • "over 60% of Somerset's orchards were intentionally destroyed" is a bit of an odd way to phrase it; I assume that farmers have given up the orchards because they are not a good investment of the land. If the sources support that, I'd suggest a rephrasing to clarify the reason: perhaps "Since the early 1960s over 60% of the orchards have been converted to more profitable uses of the land".
  • You use Williams and Williams for much of the second paragraph of Land use, including a statement that local industries are "now" in serious decline. Since the source is almost twenty years old, I think it would be better to make this "as of the early 1990s"; a more recent source would of course be even better.
  • I think it would be useful to add the dates of the project to the paragraph on the Shapwick Project.

-- More over the next day or so, as I have time. Mike Christie (talk – library) 23:04, 11 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've completed a pass through. If the above (minor) issues are resolved, and some form of map is added which lets a reader locate many of the settlements mentioned, I think I would be ready to change to weak support. My main remaining concern is that the prose is somewhat bitty. This is to some degree a natural consequence of the topic, which requires you to cover a great many disconnected bits of information under a single heading, but I do feel the prose is less than optimal. Mike Christie (talk – library) 01:03, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comments (which I will address individually) however with reference to the village names and a map - List of locations in the Somerset Levels does exist and includes settlements, as well as individuals named moors and minor rivers and drainage channels. It is linked from the see also section. As discussed above map making is beyond my skills, but the editor who did make it did suggest not making it too cluttered.— Rod talk 09:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry -- I missed that list; I will take a look. As for a map, there are a couple of options to create maps -- User:Kmusser creates top-quality maps on request; and there are also people at the Graphics Lab who can provide maps. I really think they would be a big asset to the article. Mike Christie (talk – library) 14:07, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The typo on the map has been fixed. As for what else is wanted from a map, one image can and should only do so much. The current map shows the physical geography reasonably well. Adding a political map to the settlements section would be most appropriate (in the style of the one at List of windmills in Essex) is a sensible way to show the location of the settlements. And if you want a map that shows "everything" a crop of this would do that.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:59, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A crop of the OS map would definitely be helpful; I think that would address a lot of my concerns. The style of the Essex map you give is a bit less helpful, in my eyes, because the reader has to go back and forth between the caption and the map to understand the relative positions of the named places. Mike Christie (talk – library) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Essex map uses numerical captions (to avoid overwhelming the map), but clearly the labels could be put on the image, instead of the caption. My thinking is that the map should be usable at the size it is displayed in the article - if the reader has to click away from the article to interpret it, that's a significant drawback. The harder question is how big the map should be in article - too small its useless, too big it overwhelms the article. FWIW, that OS map is freely licenced and can be utilised.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:29, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added some points on the map of the talk page to show what towns & villages could be included.— Rod talk 18:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the map should be usable at the size it is displayed in the article; but surely an article that is specifically about a geographical area makes the best possible case for a large map that spans the width of the screen? If I were reading a physical article about the levels, in a magazine, I would be grateful for a full page map, and I'd keep a finger in that page and constantly flip to it whenever I wanted to check where the Pillrow Cut joined the Brue and the Axe, or to see where it was that Alfred burned the cakes. Perhaps other readers don't read that way, so please push back on these comments if you really don't feel a detailed map is necessary, but I think it would be a big plus. I do like the purely topographic map at the top, which sets the stage for the discussion of the geography, but the Settlements section could easily start with a large map to help the reader locate all these places. The map that is being assembled on the talk page is certainly helpful, and I may support with just that (though I still need to go through the rest of the article), but I think bigger is better here. Mike Christie (talk – library) 00:22, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've now added the map & removed the "list" sentences naming the villages.— Rod talk 10:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Switched to weak support above. Mike Christie (talk – library) 10:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with one minor query.
''The Peat Moors Centre to the west of Glastonbury was dedicated to the archaeology, history and geology of the area. It also included reconstructions of some of the archaeological discoveries, including a number of Iron Age round houses and the world's oldest engineered highway, the Sweet Track. From time to time the centre offers courses in a number of ancient technologies in subjects including textiles, clothing and basket making, as well as staging various open days, displays and demonstrations. In February 2009 Somerset County Council, the owners of the Peat Moors Centre, announced their intention of closing the centre and it finally shut on 31 October 2009 The centre "was", but " From time to time the centre offers", then "it finally shut on 31 October 2009".
done
Otherwise prose is good, well referenced and comprehensive coverage of the subject. Jezhotwells (talk) 16:50, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment (& support). I have changed offers to offered.— Rod talk 17:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Good, that was the only issue I noted. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:41, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have reinstated cider as the word is used to describe a number of different drinks across the world e.g. fizzy fruit drinks in Japan, or apple juice in the USA. I think a link is perfectly justified. --Simple Bob a.k.a. The Spaminator (Talk) 11:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"grass" probably doesn't need to be linked but perhaps "Teazel" in the first para of the lead should be linked - and should be in lowercase. Aa77zz (talk) 11:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uncertain if this belongs in Geology or Geography-- move if needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would say Geography as, although the geology is important, it also covers human geography, natural history etc.— Rod talk 18:04, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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