Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stefan Lochner/archive1
- Its In 1380 there was an excellent painter in Cologne called Wilhelm, who had no equal in his art and who depicted human beings as if they were alive. Ceoil (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "He was probably born in the early 15th century in Meersburg" but the detailed section seems pretty dubious about this. Soften? But then later: "On 16 August 1451 the council of Meersburg was informed by officials in Cologne that Lochner would be unable to attend to the will and estate of his parents." which seems more solid.
- Have added a section on the hist records, but the page, yes, dioes need to firm up on what is know and what is supposed. Ceoil (talk) 21:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "He moved to Cologne" - unclear if he came for the Imperial decorations, or was already well established there. Both seem to be said.
- We obviously not know but will add clarifiers. Ceoil (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "forty marks and ten shillings" - links?
- marks linked, no appropriate article for 15th c shillings that I can find. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "possibly to avoid paying the 12 guilder fee; unbeknown to him the guild did not require it." Confusing, and how do we know he was unaware? seems unlikely frankly. "However, he was obliged to act as Ratsherr, and on 24 June 1447 he became a burgher of Cologne" - why "However"?
- Hedged this. Ceoil (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "He painted with oil and typically placed the canvas below the ground or support" Normally, the canvas is the "support", with the ground on top, then the paint. Did he in fact paint on canvas? This would have been most unusual at this date, and worth mentioning if so. All the image files that specify a support (not many) say panel. Ok, I see from Billinge that putting canvas over the panel was done in Cologne, or Germany. Worth clarifying, and using this very clear account more. The canvas is above the panel, which for my money should be regarded as the "support".
- I need help with this. I did try and figure out, but was unable. Ceoil (talk) 21:27, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll get on it. Johnbod (talk) 21:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Tinkered a bit. Is that ok? Johnbod (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, explained much clearer now. Ceoil (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Tinkered a bit. Is that ok? Johnbod (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll get on it. Johnbod (talk) 21:46, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "In the underdrawings for the Last Judgment..." - explain how we know this? X-rays etc
- Clarified. Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- The description of the technique could be clearer. Billinge et al might help.
- It think you mean because it was a bit wordy not because it lacked detail - I tried to simplify, can you look again. Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- There's a mix of ENGVARS - center, colour, modeled, etc.
- Umm. Removed these instances, but spelling is not my forte. Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Lochner's major works include three large polyptychs,..." 4 with the Dombild, surely? I don't know about all these redlinks.
- Now reading as four. Redlinks have been reduced. Ceoil (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "As secular works grew in demand and religious works were seen as constricted and out of step in later centuries.." doesn't seem the best choice of words somehow
- Reworded this. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Two drawings on paper in the British Museum and the Beaux-Arts ..." - 2nd link wrong, I'm sure
- Ouch. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Hans Memling was exposed to his work during a visit to Italy. The influence of Lochner's Last Judgement can be seen in the latter's Gdansk altarpiece, where the gates of Heaven are similar, as is the rendering of the blessed." Dubious (mainly the first bit). Memling seems never to have visited Italy, and would he have seen any Lochners if he had? Do you mean Cologne, where he may have trained? Again "Van der Weyden saw his paintings during his travel to Italy." - his trip, in 1450, is somewhat speculative, and were there any Lochners in Italy? Do we mean his travel took him via Cologne, which is very possible?
- Most likely. Removed for now, will dig out hopefully later tonight. Ceoil (talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Later, Johann Dominicus Fiorillo discovered..." Are you sure it was later (than 1816, when Fiorillo was already 68). I only ask; presumably it was in his second blockbuster, published 1815 to 1820, but no doubt covering many more years of research.
- (Per: Levey, Michael , The German School; National Gallery Catalogues, p. 60, 1959, National Gallery, London) the Dombild was commissioned for the chapel of the Rathaus (Cologne City Hall) and only reached the Dom later (presumably before the Allies flattened the Rathaus in WW2). Johnbod (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- More later. Johnbod (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks, working through....Ceoil (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support Significant points sorted Johnbod (talk) 08:13, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Last point I haven't got her book, but Iris Schaeffer's video (2015, the article's EL) suggests that the new examination of the underdrawings of the Dombild, suggests that SL worked as a student/junior with the Master of the Heisterbach Altarpiece, whose works are I think now re-dated to the 1430s. Shouldn't this be mentioned - c. 30 mins in. Johnbod (talk) 08:19, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, and lecture is based on the findings Eng trans here. Thanks very much for the additions and edits; will revisit the sources re workshop. Ceoil (talk) 22:45, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Had mentioned Research in 2014 into the underdrawings of the "Dombild Altarpiece" established two guiding hands, presumably Lochner and an exceptionally talented pupil from Schaeffer but not made the connection with the Heisterbach. Need to revisit and make explicit. Ceoil (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Comments by Wehwalt
-
- Leaning support. Just a few things:
- Lede
- " combine that era's tendency towards long flowing lines and brilliant colours while incorporating". I think there's an issue here with "combine", I keep waiting for a "with".
- " illuminated manuscript" Why the singular?
- "Lochner's identity and reputation was lost" was should be "were", surely?
- " He was probably born " this feels like the start of a new paragraph.
- Identity
- The third sentence of the first paragraph could usefully be split.
- "under whom he had studied" You could probably drop the "had"
- Cologne
- "artists concentrated on more personal and intimate and sunkects and forms" I don't speak Art, but it strikes me that this could use clarification.
- "and he was forced remortgage the homes" a missing "to" after "forced"?
- "possibly to avoid paying the 12 guilder fee; unbeknown to him the guild did not require it" given that we're not certain of his motivation, can we really say what is known or unknown to him?
- Plague
- You may wish to mention, either inline or in a footnote, that January 1451 was after December 1451 and why.
- Style
- "The grounded these passages in lead white" should "The" be "He"?
- Other formats
- "draftsman" earlier "draughtsman"
- Influences
- "new developed" "newly developed"?Wehwalt (talk) 21:39, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Wehwalt, thanks for the feedback, have most of these now; looking into January 1451. Ceoil (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Can you explain re Jan 1451 - is it an error in the article - I dont see from 1451 that the calandars changed. Ceoil (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- I see it implied that January 1451 followed December 1451 and assume the date changed in March.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just waiting on this last one, Ceoil--Wehwalt (talk) 14:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry Wehwalt, slow on the uptake but I'm just not seeing it. My understanding of the outline is re-election late 1450, plage in 1451, sick in August of 51, city appropriates property nears his in September, creditors act in Dec, taking full control of the estate in Jan 1452. Would be the first time I've typ-oed something like this so....asking. Ceoil (talk) 23:21, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
- I think you fixed it somewhere along the line. Support well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Can you explain re Jan 1451 - is it an error in the article - I dont see from 1451 that the calandars changed. Ceoil (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Comments from Cassianto
editI had the pleasure of reading this today and fixed a few odds and sods where I saw fit. I offer these comments in good faith and will not be offended if you decide not to adopt:
- Identity and attribution
- "The determination of his identity took place in two stages. First, in an article published in 1823, J. F. Böhmer identified the Dombild (meaning "Cathedral picture") or Altarpiece of the City's Patron Saints with a work mentioned in an account of a visit to Cologne in 1520 in the diary of Albrecht Dürer, during which the notoriously thrifty artist paid 5 silver pfennig to see an altarpiece by "Maister Steffan", some seventy years after Lochner's death." -- Two things here: Would a semi-colon work better by coming before "First, an article published in 1823"? Secondly, there is no "second", which one would expect after your "first". Some, and in that I include me, may also opine that this entire sentence is a bit long for comfortable reading.
- "The German philosopher and critic Friedrich Schlegel..." – I am a huge fan of the definite article, such as you have here, although elsewhere in the article you use the preferred American format of omitting "the".
- Early life
- "Georg and Alhet Lochner were citizens and recorded as having died there in 1451." → "Georg and Alhet Lochner were citizens and were recorded as having died there in 1451."
- "However, there is no archival evidence that he was there, and his style bears no trace of the art of that region." → "However, there is no archival evidence that he was there, and his style bears no trace of the art of that region." -- in that region, surely?
- Move to Cologne, success
- "Cologne had a long tradition of producing high quality visual art, and in the 14th century its output was considered equal to that of Vienna and Prague." -- I think I saw Johnbod above say that such claims don't necessarily need to be attributed, and that it can be relied on that before a certain date, one can take such claims to belong to art scholars. Is this correct, or have I got this wrong? Just checking, as normally I would like these claims attributed, but if you chaps have a certain way of doing things, I shan't stand in the way of consistency. CassiantoTalk 19:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Good suggestions, and agree re the definite article. Now implemented, and thanks for the c/e's this week. Ceoil (talk) 19:05, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- You're more than welcome. CassiantoTalk 19:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not exactly: I said that when statements or views are attributed to individuals, they only need a describing epithet if they are not art historians, as that is the default type of expert in an article like this. The statement you quoted, at the least the first bit, is certainly true, and any book covering the art of the period will say so, so attributing it to a single scholar as though it was somehow controversial or a personal view is not really appropriate. As to the second bit, Vienna was at this point a much more minor centre, but Prague was the Imperial capital and very important in the late 14th century, so that bit is more capable of dispute. But that bit refers to contemporary 14th-century opinion, so is more of a factual matter. Johnbod (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ah, my mistake, thanks for that. CassiantoTalk 19:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Not exactly: I said that when statements or views are attributed to individuals, they only need a describing epithet if they are not art historians, as that is the default type of expert in an article like this. The statement you quoted, at the least the first bit, is certainly true, and any book covering the art of the period will say so, so attributing it to a single scholar as though it was somehow controversial or a personal view is not really appropriate. As to the second bit, Vienna was at this point a much more minor centre, but Prague was the Imperial capital and very important in the late 14th century, so that bit is more capable of dispute. But that bit refers to contemporary 14th-century opinion, so is more of a factual matter. Johnbod (talk) 19:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- You're more than welcome. CassiantoTalk 19:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "By the 1430s, painting in Cologne had become conventional and somewhat old fashioned, still under the influence of the courtly style of the Master of Saint Veronica, who is known to have been active until 1420." -- Again, and one can refer to my comment above for this, the fact that this was "known" by someone may require you to say who knew this. Also, "which was" could be inserted between "old fashioned" and "still under" if you are talking about Cologne, which I think you are.
- How about 'conventional and somewhat old fashioned, and still under the influence of the courtly style'. Ceoil (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that conjunction works just as well, if not better, I'm embarrassed to admit! CassiantoTalk 19:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Again this is presumably a factual matter relating to surviving documents (or paintings with dates on them), so doesn't need tying to individuals here. If only we had an article on him, all would no doubt be made clear ....Johnbod (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- We link marks but not shillings. I would say that both would require a link for our foreign readers.
- See above re shillings. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Seen, thanks. CassiantoTalk 20:18, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- See above re shillings. Ceoil (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Plague, early death
- "Germany suffered an outbreak of plague in 1451..." – I'm sure Germany the country didn't suffer all that much; I would say: "There was an outbreak of the plaque in Germany in 1951..." or thereabouts.
- Have used your wording. Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- " It is presumed..." -- by who?
- Art historians! Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Style
- "Yet he was widely regarded..." -- A rather uncomfortable sentence starter.
- Yes, but the yet is needed given the preceding statement - help needed! Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with it, but it is too closely linked to the first sentence for a full stop to be used. One would expect to see a semi-colon used, or maybe, and perhaps more preferably, a comma. CassiantoTalk 20:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, that's a better formulation. Done, thanks. Ceoil (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with it, but it is too closely linked to the first sentence for a full stop to be used. One would expect to see a semi-colon used, or maybe, and perhaps more preferably, a comma. CassiantoTalk 20:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Lochner was renowned for his rendering of flesh tones. He grounded these passages in lead white, to achieve a porcelain appearance Probably... -- Either we are missing a full stop, or we have a pesky caps typo.
- Gaa. Fixed. Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- "Lochner seems to have prepared on paper before approaching his underdrawings; there is relatively little evidence of reworking..." – I think the sentence would work just as well, if not better, by omitting "relatively" here.
- Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- We have a touch of déjà vu. In the second paragraph we have: "He was innovative in his rendering of flesh tones, which he built up using lead whites to give pale complexions with almost porcelain qualities." Meanwhile, five paragraphs down, we have: "Lochner was renowned for his rendering of flesh tones. He grounded these passages in lead white, to achieve a porcelain appearance."
- Got it, phew, good spot. Ceoil (talk) 02:06, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
The rest of the article appears to be in great working order and I can offer nothing further. Good work! CassiantoTalk 19:34, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Cassianto, I think these are all addressed, if you could check. I have a few o/s issues from Johnbod that I am working on. Ceoil (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support – all checked with responses satisfactorily addressed by the nominator. I now fully endorse this article's promotion to FA. CassiantoTalk 13:34, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Source review from Cas Liber - ref formatting all looks consistent. isbns all 13 digit with hyphens etc. all in order. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:34, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.Graham Beards (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.