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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Birds (Alexander McQueen collection)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 25 August 2023 [1].

The Birds (Alexander McQueen collection)

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Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For his fifth collection, Alexander McQueen presented The Birds, a collection inspired by the Hitchcock film of the same name. Where a lesser designer might have been satisfied with aping Tippi Hedren's classy dresses and pencil skirts, McQueen chose sex and violence: gratuitous nudity, tire tracks, and dead white eyes. Desperately poor, he was courting controversy in an effort to attract financial backing, and it worked. Although it was his next collection, Highland Rape, that made him a star, The Birds is a work of macabre genius that deserves recognition in its own right. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:46, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (pass)

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Aoba47

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  • For this part, (Like his previous professional shows, the show was styled), I would avoid the repetition of shows/show in such close proximity if possible.
  • Yup, tweaked
  • I think a link to pattern cutting would be helpful in this part, (as a pattern cutter), to help readers who may not be familiar with fashion terminology.
  • For this part, (the masters-level course), a link to the master's degree in the United Kingdom article would be helpful as some readers may not be as familiar with academic terminology and it seems like the degree is different in the UK than elsewhere. If not there, it could also be linked later on at this part, (his master's degree in fashion design).
  • Above two both done
  • I am not fully convinced that the quote boxes in the "Concept and creative process" section are necessary. The first seems more general about McQueen's perception of himself as a whole as opposed to specifically about this collection, and while I get the second quote box is likely meant to convey McQueen's personality, I am still not entirely certain about it.
  • Lol, I wondered if someone would say something about that second one. I'd thought the "provocative" quote was c. The Birds and therefore relevant, but I double-checked my source and it looks like Watt pulled a quote from a few years later and just stuck it in decoratively and there I went following suit. I pulled the first one (swapped for a poster of The Birds actually), but I'm kind of attached to the second one and would prefer to keep it if there isn't too much objection.
  • Fair enough. My primary objection was with the first quote box anyway. The first quote box is still there on my end, but I do think swapping it out for The Birds poster would be ideal. Aoba47 (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I somehow managed to not save the edits I made last night, but I've fixed it now.
  • I would attribute this quote, ("Complete chaos and human vulnerability in the face of nature gone wrong"), in the prose as I am not entirely sure who is saying this.
  • Fixed
  • This is more of a clarification question, but did anyone discuss how it might be odd to invite your parents to a fashion show that is intentionally provocative and highly-sexualized?
  • No one did, no.
  • I figured as much, but it was just a question that popped into my head while reading that part so I wanted to pose it to you. Thank you for addressing it. Aoba47 (talk) 16:53, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would link Madonna. Also, would it be possible to attribute this rumor to anything, like according to X? I think clearer attribution would help to justify why a rumor is included in the article as I could see some people having issue with it.
  • Linked, but unfortunately Wilson doesn't attribute it, just says it's a rumor. I think it's worth retaining because it indicates that he was drawing attention - I've added that context now.
  • Thank you for the explanation. I think the fact that a high-quality citation is used would support its inclusion, and I appreciate the wording, which in my opinion further solidifies its inclusion in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 00:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a clarification question about this part, (arguing that his designs were meant to make women look "stronger"). Did McQueen explain further on how his designs were intended to signify this?
  • Speaking broadly, McQueen wanted women wearing his clothes to scare the shit out of men, whether that was because they looked sexually confident, untouchably armored, or even (early on) like they'd survived incredible violence. He was a witness to domestic violence, so when he depicted violence it was a kind of statement of defiant survival: "you can run me over and I'm still walking". Unfortunately, he's not very good at articulating himself during this period, so the best I can do is expand the quote.
  • Thank you for the explanation. It is one of those types of rationales that I could see getting very passionate opinions for and against, but I believe the revisions helps to better clarify and context McQueen's approach. Aoba47 (talk) 00:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe it should be the Met without a capitalized "The" if used in the middle of a sentence.
  • Fixed

I hope these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read the article a few more times just to make sure I catch everything. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 22:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

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  • I'll do a full review later, but as McQueen was British and the show took place in Britain I believe it should be written in UK English per MOS:TIES, which means that "some models were covered in tire tracks" should be "some models were covered in tyre tracks" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi ChrisTheDude, will there be more from you? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: I did a full review (and supported) immediately below..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
D'oh! Sorry Chris. I blame premature senility. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That being said Gog, is there anything else the coords are looking for at this FAC? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More commentsSupport from Chris

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  • "Fashion designer Andrew Groves, who McQueen dated" => "Fashion designer Andrew Groves, whom McQueen dated"
  • "McQueen was able to secure the warehouse for only £500" - I would say "McQueen was able to secure the use of the warehouse for only £500" to avoid the implication that he literally bought the building
  • "there was a long line-up to get in" => "there was a long queue to get in"
  • "Other reviewers weren't so uniformly impressed" => "Other reviewers were not so uniformly impressed"
  • That's it! :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Reviewing this version, spot-check only on request. I don't think we use ISSNs for New York Times. Beyond that, the source information seems to be consistent and all of it that's needed is present. I presume the heavy usage of British newspapers is unavoidable? I must say, "Daily Mail columnist" does not sound like a reliable source at all so I ask what makes "Champagne Supernovas: Kate Moss, Marc Jacobs, Alexander McQueen, and the '90s Renegades Who Remade Fashion" a reliable source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Jo-Jo, thanks for the review. McQueen was a British designer who didn't really get big in the States until after this, so almost everything contemporary is going to be British papers. Callahan appears to be a reasonably qualified longtime journalist and author who has written other non-fiction books. Generally what she says lines up with what other sources have said, so I don't have significant concerns for her reliability. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:21, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK then, with caveats about my low understanding of the article topic and lack of spot-check. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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Putting down a marker: will be along shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 09:15, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall
  • I am a little confused by your use of capitals in the sources – some titles are capitalised, others aren't. Are they consistent?
  • No, I'm just a slob. I've made them all consistently sentence case now, I think
  • There are a couple of places where the refs are out of numerical order (eg [59][17] or [34][22][29])
  • Fixed
  • You don't need the nationalities for the participants (with the possible exception of McQueen); it doesn't matter where the rest of them come from - their roles are more important.
  • I caught Val Harland but I can't find any others - can you specify? (It's possibly that I'm overtired and just not seeing them)
  • "South African corsetmaker Mr. Pearl" and "Italian fashion manufacturer Eo Bocci" are the two others
  • Thanks, yeah, my eye was just glazing past them apparently. I've removed South African but I think Bocci's nationality is relevant as it resulted in all of McQueen's manufacturing being moved to Italy, where they have a lot of garment manufacturing - I've now added a sentence to that effect.
  • That seems OK to me.
  • Somewhat a matter of taste (although there is a slight element of BrEng too), but I'd avoid false titles like "British designer Alexander McQueen" and "Fashion designer Andrew Groves" "British designer Alexander McQueen" and "Fashion designer Andrew Groves": go instead for "the British designer", etc
  • If it's not hugely an issue, I'd prefer to leave out the "the", I just find it unbearably clunky and the rest of the articles in the series are written without it so it'd be inconsistent to have them just here
Concept and creative process
  • "a CSM instructor" --> "a CSM lecturer"
  • Fixed
  • "garden birds," --> "garden birds", (comma outside the quote marks)
  • "Groves was tapped to replace it": I'm not sure what "tapped" means, but I don't think it's an encyclopaedic term
  • Mmm, Wiktionary has it as usage 11 under the verb usage of "[[:wikt:tap#Verb|]]", as in "To advance someone for a post or job", and doesn't note it as informal
  • I wouldn't trust Wiktionary as far as I could throw it! The OED has it listed as "U.S. colloquial", so probably best change to something in BrEng
  • Yeah fair, swapped for "asked"
Reception
  • "achieved heights of lowdown style," --> "achieved heights of lowdown style", (comma outside the quote marks)
  • Both comma/quote things fixed

That's my lot – I hope they're helpful! Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 11:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi SchroCat, many thanks for your comments. Responses above, cheers! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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