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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 2 April 2024 [1].

The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes

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Nominator(s): ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" and -- ZooBlazer 09:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes, a video game released in October 2021, and the third game in The Dark Pictures Anthology. It's set in 2003 during the Iraq War and involves four members of the US Armed Forces having to work together with a member of the Iraqi Republican Guard in order to survive a monstrous threat that doesn't care about nationalities. Your Power did an amazing job expanding the article in early 2022. I joined in around mid-2023 and we added the finishing touches to get the article promoted to GA in July. After a break, we recently rejoined forces in order to get the article ready for this FAC nomination. This is my first time nominating at FAC, so I look forward to any feedback. -- ZooBlazer 09:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ready for the comments too :) a departure from my usual music-focused FAC stuff; hope you all enjoy the read! ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 10:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from the Night Watch

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Saving a spot, will have some comments up soon. The Night Watch (talk) 20:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments still forthcoming within the next few days, sorry I'm a bit behind on things. The Night Watch (talk) 03:37, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Response coming tomorrow or Friday, so sorry for the delay. The Night Watch (talk) 03:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article looks like it will take some time for me to review, but I don't want to keep you waiting any longer so here is what I found on a first look.
  • In the first paragraph of the lead, two sentences in a row start with the term "the game" which is repetitive. Mind changing up the sentences some?
  • "Players must make several choices that can have long-term consequences on the narrative's progression"
  • What are personality traits, and how are they relevant to the game? I see them mentioned in Gamplay, but what is their importance?
  • "The developers incorporated a wider variety of narrative branches into House of Ashes' story after player feedback from the previous games." How is this relevant to the Gameplay? It seems more pertinent to the development section.
  • "The multiplayer concept was inspired by live streamers' collaborative manner of playing Until Dawn (2015), another game by Supermassive, which prompted the developers to incorporate such a feature in their following releases." Same as above.
  • "Rounding out the ensemble cast's four-American tally" This wording seems a bit too informal, could this be changed somehow?
  • "With this, he can make Jason empathize with Iraqis, especially Salim's reasons for joining the war, and overcome his prejudices." crossed-out portion seems a little too detailed.
  • "but his commanding officer, Dar Basri…" I think a comma goes after Dar Basri though I am not certain.
  • Who is Clarice? She is mentioned in the image in gameplay as an ally, but what is her importance to the plot?
  • Changed the wording. She's just one of the side characters who gets infected and the image shows the one choice you have regarding her. -- ZooBlazer
  • "after which they are promptly assaulted by vampires"
The Night Watch (talk) 03:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now for Round 2.
  • "The game's multiplayer concept was inspired by live streamers' collaborative manner of playing Until Dawn (2015), another game by Supermassive, which prompted the developers to incorporate a similar feature in their following releases." Not sure if concept is needed there.
  • "Doyle described..." needs introduction to who Will Doyle is as the director of the game.
  • "Like the other instalments, House of Ashes was designed to be a standalone story, but Supermassive Games included easter eggs and callbacks to previous and future instalments to create a shared universe within the anthology." Replace the second instalments with "entries"
  • "Sara Rechena from the Portuguese edition of IGN said the choice was reminiscent of the anthology TV series American Horror Story." How is it reminiscent? I think some more context may be needed here for this point.
  • "David Hirst oversaw the art team's research into Mesopotamian architecture, dress, and headgear for use in the game, "filling in the gaps where necessary" in order to create a memorable, but still realistic look."
  • "The soundtrack was composed by Supermassive Games's long-time collaborator Jason Graves, who previously worked with them on music for other games in The Dark Pictures Anthology." How about "The soundtrack was composed by Supermassive Games's long-time collaborator Jason Graves, who previously worked on music for other games in The Dark Pictures Anthology."
  • "Before the series' inception, he composed music for Until Dawn." Is that pertinent enough to mention?
  • "The monsters' designs were created to be faceless so they would appear incomprehensible and unempathetic, and inhumane enough to "bring out the humanity" in the protagonists" How about "The monsters were designed to be faceless so they would appear incomprehensible and unempathetic, and inhumane enough to "bring out the humanity" in the protagonists"
Great, more forthcoming tomorrow. The Night Watch (talk) 01:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've swept most of the article and it looks quite good. Reception may take some time though, so I will see what I can do. The Night Watch (talk) 22:38, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am very busy right now off-wiki, so I don't think I will be able to give a timely response on Reception. I will support based on the prose of the rest of the article though. The Knight Watch (talk) 03:24, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by David Fuchs

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In progress, look for review by the end of the week. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC) The article is a good start, but I'm going to oppose at present with regards to coverage, prose, and sourcing.[reply]

  • Lead:
    • "Continuing the series' premise, the game features a cast of five playable protagonists and a multilinear narrative influenced by player choices." I don't know if "premise" really is the right word here, given that the narrative is entirely separate; I'd say it's probably more fair to say it continues the same formula. Either way, I don't think it's doing a lot here, especially if you don't know the other games, so I'd cut that introductory phrase and just start with "the game features..."
    • "Its decision-making scenes" Any reason not to just say "decisions"?
    • "House of Ashes is inspired primarily by the novella At the Mountains of Madness (1936) and the films Predator (1987) and The Descent (2005). " For the purposes of the lead, I'd remove these dates, same with the ones in the earlier Anthology explanation. It's just wordy and we don't need that context here.
    • "marking the third time Supermassive Games cast a high-profile actor to portray a character for the series." At first blush I quibble with the descriptor "high-profile actor" here, because Ashley Tisdale isn't Tom Cruise or similar. It also doesn't seem to appear in the body.
    • The structure of the lead is a bit odd to me. It starts with basic information about the game, then talks about the structure of the game and its plot, then has further elaboration, but then jumps back to the game mechanics. I'm not sure this is the clearest way of introducing this versus something more linear of explaining the premise and then the mechanics of gameplay or vice versa. There's also very little about the actual development aside from oblique references to the new features and the composer.
  • Gameplay:
    • "Developed on Unreal Engine 4 by Supermassive Games," it seems really weird to me (and undue weight to highlight the game engine here, and for the purposes of explaining the gameplay it's irrelevant (as is repeating the developer here.)
    • "A core element of the gameplay involves the management of relationships between the characters, and their allies and enemies" The allies and enemies here are talking about the characters' interpersonal relationships, right? So then it's extraneous with the details before (otherwise it sounds like you're managing the relationships of the characters and the bat monsters you mentioned previously.)
    • "The camera is no longer fully fixed and has been replaced with a controllable, 360-degree one" without linking away, this is potentially hard for a casual reader to grok.
    • The details here feel like they drift from gameplay into development, such as the feedback leading to the camera system or "Because many scenes involve "spookier" and more spacious areas, Supermassive found it appropriate to give players total control over the camera, which would aid in exploration and allow players to appreciate the cavernous locations."
    • In general, the comparisons to the other game should be minimized, and the gameplay section should focus on the game itself.
    • We briefly mention QTEs but don't explain more of them, and then three paragraphs later we introduce them again. This section's organization feels haphazard.
    • Reading the final paragraph I don't really understand how the game changes in its multiplayer modes.
  • Synopsis:
    • I would remove the citations to the plot. It's generally understood the game is the source for all the information that's not interpreted (WP:PLOTCITE)
    • I'm not entirely sold on the length of the synopsis section. It's 1000 words in total, and given that there's a lot of names to juggle, I think trying to pare this down would make it much easier to follow. In particular, while the existence of a prologue set thousands of years earlier seems relevant, the actual characters don't (they only get name checked a single time in the subsequent section.) Details like a character's callsign (which is never mentioned again), specific types of soldiers, etc. bog down the description.
    • As a minor note, do the sources call all five main characters protagonists? By definition the term usually implies a singularly-focused character.
  • Development:
    • I would separate out the release info, since it's about marketing and promotion, rather than development.
    • "Its screenplay was written by Khurrum Rahman" - Do sources actually call it a screenplay?
    • "Man of Medan and Little Hope received PS5/Xbox Series X/S upgrades in September 2022, which were free for those who already owned the games." Doesn't seem relevant to this game.
    • In general, I think there's an overuse of quotes throughout, but in particular this bit: "Doyle described House of Ashes as a creature feature and an exploration horror game about an ensemble cast of "trained experts", who are "beyond safety" and unable to get backup for a "critical" mission in a secluded location, where they encounter threats Doyle described as "horrible" and "inhumane"." It's a pain to read when you've essentially got scare quotes popping up every three words.
    • I think there's a general issue going along with this of tone, where the development feels congratulatory and less neutral-sounding than it should, especially deferring to the developer's framing of things.
    • "As observed by Kimberley Wallace from Game Informer, every game in the series follows this trend." The trend of promoting Tisdale and Rachel as the lead?
  • Reception:
    • This all feels like it could be tightened up further and better organized. I appreciate that it puts in effort to summarize a bunch of critic reviews, but I don't feel like I get a very good indication of what critics actually felt versus the general consensus because the reception meanders from considering individual points in isolation rather than talking about them more broadly. I don't know if the story was covered so much it deserves the subsection all about that aspect, or it's just less well-collated. Why does a single critic's opinion on the Iraq War aspect of the story get the better part of 200 words uninterrupted and essentially the last word on the game?
  • Sales:
    • As a point of organization, traditionally this information often goes along with release; especially since there's not a ton in this section I think it makes more sense to cover it there.
  • Sequel:
    • I'm not sure this should exist as a standalone section versus a single line; it feels more appropriate for the series page given that this is an anthology series and it doesn't connect to this game at all; the description of the premise likewise is irrelevant for this game.
  • Media and References:
    • VGChartz is an unreliable source; TheGamer is generally considered reliable for the time period, but it's in my opinion used way too much as a lower-quality Valnet source.
    • I have not done a ref spot-check yet to evaluate for source-integrity or attribution issues.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:04, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments. I'll hopefully have more free time this weekend to address things. Hopefully @Your Power will also find some free time soon too. -- ZooBlazer 18:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs Just a small update. I'm hoping to have everything addressed by Sunday or maybe Monday at the latest since I won't have much editing time on Saturday. -- ZooBlazer 04:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs I think I've made an attempt at addressing everything above. Still need to do edits to the reception, although I think the last part of your reception feedback has been addressed. I was hoping Your Power would have a chance to deal with the reception at some point since they wrote most of it, but they don't have much wiki time at the moment, so it's taking me a bit of time to get through everything. I've cut back on the Gamer refs where I could. The remaining refs I think are ones I couldn't find a better alternative for. -- ZooBlazer 07:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright @David Fuchs:, I've finished my attempt at cleaning up the reception, so I think officially everything has been addressed that you brought up. I hope I can make progress towards you eventually being willing to strike the oppose. Let me know if you still find things unsatisfactory. -- ZooBlazer 07:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I will take another look. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:42, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Round 2
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In addition to the below comments, I performed line edits throughout—mostly reorganizing content where I thought it made more sense and trying to reduce wordiness in other spots, as well as shrinking the synopsis (it was only trimmed by roughly 50 words.) I'm not a British English native so while I tried to avoid any ENGVAR stuff, double-check.

  • Gameplay:
    • "Players take control of five characters, enlisted in the armed forces of their respective countries, who fall and become trapped in an underground Mesopotamian temple."—before and later we say Akkadian, so I would keep it consistent. I would also add something here about the monsters the characters face just because it seems odd to just mention "creatures" later on where it hasn't really be glossed in the body itself.
      Done -- ZooBlazer
    • "House of Ashes is the first game in the series to feature difficulty levels, such as "Forgiving", "Challenging" and "Lethal", "—should this really be 'such as' when the lead said there were only three? I also don't think the actual names are that important.
      Removed the names -- ZooBlazer
    • "He converses with players about the choices they have made and provides clues about what will happen next in the plot." Can the NPC really "converse" with players? Or is he just talking at them?
      Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • Synopsis:
    • "The five characters are separated during the fall. " This doesn't seem to particularly jive with the following paragraph which has them almost immediately reunite, and it's weird to mention them getting attacked and then essentially restate similar info in the next paragraph. (Also, you've got aliens, reanimated humans, and vampires, which I don't know if these are all referring to the same thing. Based on the setting section, doesn't seem like you should use aliens at all because they've all mutated into the vampires?)
      I ended up just removing that sentence. I alao removed all the alien mentions except when talking about them early on before they get infected. -- ZooBlazer
    • Clarice gets dropped in without any introduction.
      Fixed -- ZooBlazer
    • The explanatory plot note for the ending is ambiguous and shifts tenses. I presume it's saying the two characters are Rachel and Salim, but this isn't structured clearly. Also, Target LZ isn't mentioned before.
      Cleaned it up and just removed that last part about the LZ as it wasn't needed. -- ZooBlazer
  • Development:
    • The development could use a brief introduction to the Dark Pictures Anthology instead of just launching into the differences with the previous games compared to this one. I think the organization of the section is a bit haphazard, since this information is in the article but after everything else is talked about in the section. "Prelude" also doesn't really make sense as a subsection heading.
      I moved a part from the release section to development. Is that good or is further introduction info needed? Also removed prelude. -- ZooBlazer
  • References:
    • Source check incoming.

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David Fuchs: I think everything has been dealt with from round 2 (so far). -- ZooBlazer 19:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
David ? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:24, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source review is still in progress. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi David, is this still ongoing? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @Gog the Mild I've struck my oppose but I don't think I'm going to continue the review and register a support. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:34, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks David. It was the "Source review is still in progress" I was querying. I'll post it at requests. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild My comments are sourcing are below. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 20:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs Just a heads up, a chunk of refs were removed as parts of the article were changed, leaving them unused. -- ZooBlazer 06:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-checked current refs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 13, 15, 19, 24, 29, 32, 33, 38, 40, 50, 53, 61, 69, 73, 77, 80, and 85.

  • Ref 4 doesn't call the creatures vampires or vampiric.
  • Ref 19 doesn't adequately support the collectibles mention (just seems to cover the exploration.)
  • Otherwise didn't spot issues with close paraphrasing or other verification issues.

My qualms with the number of TheGamer references remains. It's used less than it was, but it's still the single supporting source for a lot of information, and if it can't be replaced with a better one it implies that it's trivial enough that it probably shouldn't be mentioned (is the specific names for character traits, for instance, so important?) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@David Fuchs I fixed the ref 4 and 19 issues. For #4, I swapped in a different ref from the article and for #19 I added a second one to support the original ref.
As for The Gamer, I removed four more. The remaining ones mostly support gameplay related things. -- ZooBlazer 19:24, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: Just re-pinging because I got a server error soon after my message, so I wasn't sure if the ping went through or not. -- ZooBlazer 20:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I'm striking my oppose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cukie Gherkin

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Saving a spot. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 00:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let you know, I may be busier the next few days. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cukie Gherkin Are you going to be able to finish leaving your comments? Or are you still too busy? -- ZooBlazer 17:05, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm deepely sorry, I worry that I won't be able to give you an adequate review. I'm currently away from home since my dad is in the hospital. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:21, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things get better for you and your family. -- ZooBlazer 22:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gameplay

  1. This may or may not be an issue, but unless the article was written with British MOS, "collectables" should be "collectibles" when said as a noun.
Fixed -- ZooBlazer

Spotcheck

  1. Washington Post
    "The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes is an interactive drama and survival horror game." - Is there a source that specifies it as a drama?
Added -- ZooBlazer
  1. "To further adjust difficulty, players can choose which buttons to press for specific types of QTE" I have a question about this: it says 'certain segments', is that to mean that there are different kinds of QTEs? Also, when it says "all QTEs," is it communicating that all QTEs can be customized, or that one can choose a button for their QTEs, and that choice reflects in all QTEs? Going off that, I was wondering if you can fully customize button choices, or if you pick a single button to serve as your QTE button. Another point I would make is to ask if it wouldn't be beneficial to mention that you can choose to hold instead of mash.
Changed the wording. I don't think you can pick the button, but it is the same button every time with those settings on. -- ZooBlazer
  1. When I click on "i" in the Washington Post citation, it brings me to this: "and the multiplayer modes.[i]" However, that seems like it's an error? This error also occurs with 'k'.
[i] is for the note. The WP ref is [1] which is the next sentence. -- ZooBlazer
  1. [2] I am not against The Gamer being used in FACs, but are there better sources you could use instead for the things it's cited for?
The Gamer is used for specific story details, so as far as I know, the only other option would be YouTube videos. -- ZooBlazer

Comments from ChrisTheDude

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  • "outmatch the vampiric creatures that infest the area" - I may be wrong but I don't think "outmatch" is the word you are looking for here. According to the dictionary it means "to prove superior to" - are they really trying to prove themselves superior to the vampires? Do you maybe mean to say "outwit the vampiric creatures"?
    I changed it to survive because that probably makes the most sense. Outmatch was definitely wrong. -- ZooBlazer
  • That's all I got on the lead, I aim to look at the rest this evening -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

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  • Image caption: "Rachel (right) contemplates on whether" => "Rachel (right) contemplates whether"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • "the character's perceptions of each other" => "the characters' perceptions of each other"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • What are the sources for the "setting and prologue" section?
    They were removed based on one of the comments above by David I would remove the citations to the plot. It's generally understood the game is the source for all the information that's not interpreted (WP:PLOTCITE) -- ZooBlazer
  • "The game's multiplayer was inspired" - is "multiplayer" a noun? Or is there a word ("mode"?) missing?
    Fixed -- ZooBlazer
  • "Executive producer Dan McDonald, in an interview with PCGamesN, said Supermassive" => "Executive producer Dan McDonald, in an interview with PCGamesN, said that Supermassive"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • "McDonald said while the game" => "McDonald said that while the game"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • "Two story trailers provided glimpses on the game's plot" => "Two story trailers provided glimpses of the game's plot"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • "teaser trailer at the end of Little Hope" - clarify that this was an earlier game in the same series?
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • "Critics deemed the camera work superior to previous instalments'." - there's no need for that apostrophe at the end
    Oops, removed -- ZooBlazer
  • "comprising partly of heartbeats and clicking noises" => "consisting partly of heartbeats and clicking noises"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • "and avoided portraying Americans" => "and that it avoided portraying Americans"
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • There's a mix of British and American English - in consecutive sentences I see "while dehumanising Arabs" and "was appropriately humanized"
    Fixed -- ZooBlazer
  • That's what I got! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: Thanks for the comments! I think everything is cleaned up. -- ZooBlazer 18:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Re: the last point, if the decision is to go with US English then you also need to fix "They wrote that Salim, thrust into the conflict against his own will, was appropriately humanised" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:04, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: British English is what is supposed to be used. That's not what I normally use, so sometimes I forget when writing certain words. -- ZooBlazer 21:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. In that case any word which ends in "-ize" should be changed to end in "-ise" because that's how we spell them over here. I think there's only a couple to fix -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude: I changed the last 3 that showed up with ctrl+F. -- ZooBlazer 08:42, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:21, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pseud 14

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A very well-written and well-researched article, which I found very interesting as a non-gamer. Since I am not a video game expert, my review focused on general prose, as there have been reviews before mine on comprehensiveness and coverage.

  • worth linking vampiric creatures to vampire if they are such
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • To further adjust difficulty -- to further adjust the difficulty
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • but the game does not say how choices will affect the trait. - perhaps we can use how each choices here
    Changed -- ZooBlazer
  • In the captions, anything in enclosure such as (pictured 2014), (pictured 2018), (pictured in 1934), and (masked pictured) should be in italics
    I think I got them all, but maybe one. For At the Mountains of Madness (1936) would I italicize the year there too even the title is already italicized? -- ZooBlazer
    @ZooBlazer: Good catch. I think since this is a title of a work (i.e. novel, film, tv series), the year can be dropped from the caption, as the release year of the work is mentioned in the prose.
    Alright, went ahead and removed it. -- ZooBlazer
  • I would also add (pictured 2016) for Graves' image caption
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • For nouns ending in "s", your possessive forms are written without adding "s" after the apostrophe, but Supermassive Games's does, worth changing it for consistency.
    Fixed -- ZooBlazer
  • myths and folklore the team could incorporate into the story. -- that the team could incorporate
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • motivations, relationships and dynamics -- missing serial comma, as I noticed you used in throughout the article.
    Oops, added -- ZooBlazer
  • compelling, sympathetic and complex -- same as above
    Added -- ZooBlazer
  • avoid bodily contact with the others -- does this refer to other voice actors? perhaps could be specified.
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • film- and game-music -- may be a typo of an extra space between the dash and "and"
    I ended up just removing the dashes because I don't know if they were necessary. -- ZooBlazer
  • The Devil in Me released on 18 November 2022 -- The Devil in Me was released on 18 November 2022
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • Jiang wrote the game remained -- Jiang wrote that the game
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • with some critics opining it provided a balanced portrayal -- with some critic opining that it provided
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • In the accolades table, the abbreviation should be written as Ref(s)
    Done -- ZooBlazer
  • That's all I got, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, especially the plot of the game. Pseud 14 (talk) 16:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Pseud 14: I'm glad you were able to enjoy the article even as a non-gamer. I've gone through and changed everything, but just have one question that I mentioned above in terms of italicizing things enclosure for the images. -- ZooBlazer 17:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changes look good. I've provided my response to your question above. Overall very minor and won't hinder me from supporting. Great work. Pseud 14 (talk) 18:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kerbyki

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Support for featured article. Thoroughly sourced with a great attention to detail. I can see that it is a bit lengthy for a stand-alone article, but people who are interested in the subject will probably enjoy that. Kerbyki (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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Has this been done? If so, has Nikkimaria been pinged? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:42, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Yeah, that was resolved just above using a video from the Vogue Taiwan YouTube channel and changing the link to that on Commons. It was their same video but it had a CC license this time. Nikkimaria approved the change. -- ZooBlazer 15:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Spot-check upon request and reviewing this version. I note that David Fuchs has already reviewed some sources. I'll note that I'll be relying on Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources so any limitations that list has will also apply to my review. I believe "The Gamer" by Valnet is actually "TheGamer", and it seems to be an unreliable source - are the authors of these articles somehow prominent? Likewise for VideoGamer.com. Bandai Namco sometimes is in allcaps and sometimes it isn't. Who is Graham Banas? It seems like the source formatting is mostly consistent. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:06, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • From David's review, I mentioned that the only remaining refs from TheGamer cover gameplay specific details which don't tend to have a better source to replace them with. Changed them to TheGamer as well.
  • Removed VideoGamer.com
  • Fixed the all caps Bandai Namco
  • Graham Banas is the writer for Push Square who interviewed the game's composer.
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Thanks for the review! I've addressed and/or responded to everything I think. -- ZooBlazer 16:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus Is there anything else that I need to address? -- ZooBlazer 07:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think so, but take note of the caveats I mentioned above. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Jo-Jo and thanks for that. As a first-time nomination this could do with a source to text fidelity check and similar for possible plagiarism. Would you be able to oblige? Note that some spot checks took place further up this review. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:27, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go:

  • 14 I don't think this says explicitly that the Ancient One is a consequence of player choices in the prologue. Or that Rachel's rescue from the cocoon depends on American characters.
    Changed the wording and source for the first part, and removed American for the second part.
  • 17 Where does it say cutscene?
    Changed to to discussions which is closer to what is said in [16] - briefly yanks the player out of the narrative to discuss the choices made
  • 24 OK
  • 26 OK
  • 27 OK
  • 35 OK
  • 41 I don't see a list of works that it took inspiration from.
    I think during some of the recent FAC changes to the article refs were accidentally removed for the inspirations, but I re-added them.
  • 42 OK
  • 44 OK
  • 48 OK
  • 53 OK
  • 56 So it was released on the day after this source?
    Game reviews are usually posted before the release date.
  • 58 OK
  • 59 Don't see "demo" mentioned anywhere.
    Changed it to "preview", but willing to change it again if you have a suggestion of what to do.
  • 62 Don't see where it says that it was revealed in House of Ashes
    That part of the sentence is covered by [63] - A video that plays at the end of the recently launched The Dark Pictures: House of Ashes has revealed The Devil in Me
  • 65 OK
  • 71 OK
  • 74 OK
  • 77 Can I have a copy of this article?
    Here is the page

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:07, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus I've responded to everything above. You left [81] blank, so I'm not sure if it was fine or had an issue. -- ZooBlazer 17:41, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mended the 81 thing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo, how is this looking now? Gog the Mild (talk) 15:33, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going to run another spotcheck on this version:

  1. 3 Not sure that I'd interpret "if you're the type of person to roll your eyes at QTE segments in games you might not find this to your liking" as praise for the QTE. Where does it say "and superior to performances from the previous games in the anthology" and "likability"?
  • Removed it from the QTE part
    For the second point, I swapped "superior" with "improved" since the source says It's a great showcase in how the dialogue, performances and overall presentation of the Dark Pictures Anthology is only getting better with each subsequent instalment - House of Ashes is perhaps one of the strongest entries yet
    Ended up removing the whole sentence regarding the likeability part.
  1. 5 Doesn't mention "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" anywhere.
  • Removed
  1. 15 OK
  2. 16 OK
  3. 21 OK
  4. 25 Not sure what this adds.
  • Removed
  1. 30 OK
  2. 33 Can we cite the release date to a contemporaneous source?
  • Added
  1. 46 OK
  2. 48 N/A
  3. 49 Does it refer to House of Ashes anywhere?
  • Removed
  1. 52 OK
  2. 53 OK
  3. 56 It says 29 not 30 October
  • That's the day the article was published. Towards the top it says RELEASE October 30, 2020
  1. 72 OK I think.
  2. 77 Don't see the racism bit?
  • Removed. I think something got lost when the section was slightly overhauled a couple weeks ago.
  1. 78 Can I have a copy of this?
  • I think that's formerly ref 77 which I provided the page in your initial review above. Just in case though, here are the pages for [80] which is the only other ref that's from a printed magazine Page 1 and Page 2 -- ZooBlazer
    Seems like, but I am not seeing the formulaic and multi-mode things. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:32, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed it from the multi mode part, but reworded the other part by changing it to supporting systems of the series becoming outdated because they're "creaking with age".
  1. 81 The source says "Whether that’s due to shitty budgets for mo-cap or her performance, I leave to the fates to decide"
  • Decided to include the full quote.
  1. 83 OK, annoying popup aside.
  2. 84 OK

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:29, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for further spotchecks. I'll address everything tomorrow morning. -- ZooBlazer 08:52, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything has been addressed Jo-Jo Eumerus. -- ZooBlazer 17:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Mike Christie

edit

Non-expert review; I've played a few video games but am not a gamer.

  • "A game with a multilinear plot, decisions can significantly alter the trajectory of the story and change the relationships between the five playable protagonists; some lead to their permanent deaths." Needs rephrasing; when you start a sentence with an adjectival phrase it appears to apply to the subject of the next clause -- i.e. "decisions", rather than "the game". How about "The game has a multilinear plot in which decisions can significantly alter the trajectory of the story and change the relationships between the five playable protagonists; some lead to their permanent deaths"?
  • "Jason Graves, a long-time collaborator with Supermassive for the series, returned to compose the soundtrack, which he did during COVID-19 lockdowns in the United Kingdom." Having said he's a long-time collaborator I think "returned" is redundant; maybe just "Jason Graves, a long-time collaborator with Supermassive for the series, composed the soundtrack during COVID-19 lockdowns in the United Kingdom".
    • Done all three
  • "To further adjust the difficulty, players can hold rather than mash buttons": can we use "press" instead of "mash"? Or does "mash" have some meaning to gamers I'm not aware of? And in what way does this change the difficulty -- if you hold the button down when responding to a QTE does that make the event harder? The source doesn't appear to say.
    • the relevant quotations are "players have their pick of three difficulty levels: Forgiving, Challenging and Lethal ... players can tailor how these QTEs play out as well. Instead of button-mashing during certain segments, you can opt to hold down the button instead" . "Pressing" a QTE means you press the button only once and something happens. "Holding" it means you have to press and let your finger stay at the button; "mashing" means you have to repeatedly press in quick succession, which explains the added challenge
  • "and they can customise the speed at which the prompts appear." I don't understand this, and I couldn't find the bit in the source that supports it. A prompt's appearance seems like something that is instantaneous no matter how you do it, unless you mean they fade in slowly? This appears to be referring to a QTE prompt that you must now press some button -- is the intended meaning that they may appear more frequently? Or that the player gets more time to respond before the negative effects occur?
  • "The game displays a notice whenever players are about to perform a QTE": shouldn't this be "when a QTE occurs"? The game can't know when a player is about to do something; it can only know when the situation occurs in which they are expected to do something.
  • "Another type is moving a reticle onto a target to shoot it." The previous sentence says QTEs involve certain actions; this sentence says it *is* the action. I think it would read more naturally to retain the parallel syntax: "Another type requires moving ..."
  • "that have consequences on the narrative's progression": I don't think you can have consequences on something: you can have consequences for something, or effects on something. Here "effects on" or "that impact" would probably be the most natural.
    • Done all the above four
  • "Their decisions can influence the characters' assigned personality traits, which will sometimes lead to the characters acting in a different way when they are not under player control, but the game does not say how each choice will affect the trait." The source for this is "Each character has different personality traits, such as "Abrasive" or "Commanding," that you can accentuate with your decisions. These traits will sometimes result in characters acting in a specific way when you're not controlling them, but the game never tells you how your choices might affect each trait, so displaying all of this information feels unnecessary when your control over them is a complete crapshoot." It wasn't until I read the source that I realized we were only talking about how an NPC's character and reactions are affected by the player's interactions with them; I read "when you're not controlling them" as saying the changes in their character might persist into the next time that character was selected as the player character. And just checking: the player only plays one of the characters, right? We have "Players take control of five protagonists" but then "the player character", so I assume four of them are NPCs throughout?
    • no, you play every one of the five characters throughout the game. you just play only one person at a time.
      So at any given moment the player is directly controlling the actions of one player, and the others are being handled as NPCs? Does the player choose when they change which character they are controlling, or does the game force the changes on them? Is this a common approach for multi-character games? It's not something I've seen in my limited gaming experience, and I am wondering whether an experienced gamer would immediately understand that this is the way the game works from "Players take control of five protagonists". Or am I missing something elsewhere in the article that makes this clearer? Looking at some of the review sources this isn't explicitly stated, so I suspect it's something a gamer would just know. This source introduces the game by saying "It’s another third-person game where you can assume control of any of five different characters in the game." I would have read this as saying you get to pick one, and the others are NPCs for the duration of the game. At the end of the gameplay section, could we add a sentence that says something like "In single-player mode, each of the five protagonists is under the player's control at different times during the game", or whatever would be accurate if that isn't? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      to be honest, i do not think mentioning this distinction is relevant at all to fully grok'ing how the game works, but allow me to clarify just in case. House of Ashes decides on what character the player will control at a given moment; as far as I know this is the case with many other non-open world games with multiple PCs, like The Last of Us Part II. contrast with GTA V which is open-world and does allow you to switch between PCs. - E
      Struck -- the article now says that player control switches between the five protagonists, which is what I felt wasn't clear. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't understand till I looked at one of the sources that the only actions possible in the game outside QTEs are choices e.g. about direction to go in the environment; the player can't be in any danger outside a QTE. I think that should be clearer.
    • Um, you should probably indicate how to make it clearer
      That wasn't the answer I expected -- again, am I missing something a regular gamer would understand? If a game has QTEs is it always the case that all the action is in QTEs? I will see if I can find the source that mentioned this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Here is a review that makes the point: "If you’ve played any of Supermassive Games’ interactive horror stories, then you’re aware that it’s gameplay is primarily made up of quick time events, where the player is prompted to press different buttons, and must do so within a small window of time in order to successfully execute an action. This is the case in House of Ashes as well, and I found myself a bit disappointed that there’s little innovation done to the system." Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      i think it should be clearer now. "the first game in the series to feature difficulty levels, which affect the game's quick time events (QTEs), another core gameplay feature", which I do admit is a bit clunky - E.
      That certainly helps. Would the sources support changing "Several scenes, including combat-heavy ones, make use of QTEs that can lead to penalties like a protagonist's death if an input is not precisely timed" to "All the combat scenes make use of QTEs, and in several scenes, including combat-heavy ones, these can lead to penalties like a protagonist's death if an input is not precisely timed"? Perhaps using the source I quote above? That would address my original point. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    At the very least I'd drop the "all".
    I'm not sure if the source posted above would help support the wording, unless I missed it. I feel like this ref (Like its predecessors, House Of Ashes is essentially an interactive drama, with gameplay coming down to making key decisions that can ripple through the game, and quick-time events that test reflexes, where success or failure can have similarly long-lasting ramifications) is alluding to the same idea without saying it though. -- ZooBlazer 16:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've struck this. I can't find the source wording that made me think this was an important point to make. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To track the narrative branches in one playthrough, the game's menu has a butterfly effect system called "bearings", which lists all consequential courses of action associated with each branch and their eventual outcomes": I read this as meaning the player could see at the time of a choice what the consequences of that choice would be, but as far as I can tell it only looks backward at how the player got to a given point, given their past choices. I'm also not sure it's a good idea to use "butterfly effect" as an adjective: I assumed this was some sort of game mechanic that appeared in multiple games. I think it could just be dropped -- the source uses the term figuratively but it doesn't explain anything by itself.
    • Hopefully the simpler verbiage removes the ambiguity
      I still think a reader unfamiliar with the game would take it to mean that bearings allow you to foresee the consequences of a current action, rather than understanding the past actions that caused a current situation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:38, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      how do we feel about "lists all retrospective choices and consequences" ? - E
      "Retrospective" is the word I was looking for. Could we do "To track the narrative branches in one playthrough, the game's menu has a system called "bearings", which allows the player to retrospectively view the actions they took that led to the current state of the game"? I still don't think "butterfly effect" tells the reader much. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:30, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Done -- ZooBlazer

That's all I have time for right now; possibly more later or tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i have responded to all the tentative comments. thank you for your input. ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 23:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More:

  • 'The eponymous "pictures" mechanic from previous games in the series returns.' I don't think "eponymous" adds anything.
    Removed
  • Suggest linking cutscene.
    Done
  • "In line with earlier games in the series, 50 "secrets"—items that are scattered throughout House of Ashes—provide background information and context to events that happened in the temple and preceded the main plot. Secrets include journal entries that, when picked up, activate a cutscene where the author's voice recounts a 1940s archaeology mission that occurred in the temple." What does thegamer.com source support here? As far as I can see it just mentions secrets and doesn't add anything not supported by the other source. If it's just the word "secrets" I don't think it's worth it; there's nothing in the WP article that indicates that indicates that "secrets" are a category of event. The WP article only mentions journal entries; are there other "secrets"? I also don't see anything that supports "50". And the second sentence reads as though there is a single cutscene; I gather from the WP source that each journal entry triggers its own cutscene, always about the 1940s archaeological expedition, but that's not clear from the article.
    replaced the TheGamer source; changed to "each trigger its own" - E.
  • "the creatures and the Ancient One who succumbed to the parasite inside the temple": are you using "creature", and later "monster", as synonyms for "vampire"? If so, I'd make this "the creatures, among whom is the Ancient One, a character from the prologue who became infected by the parasite". The current wording makes it sound as though there were two Ancient Ones in the prologue, one of whom succumbed to the parasite.
    Done
  • "whether to abandon her or continue forward to medicate her illness": suggest "whether to abandon her or stay with her and attempt to [or "in the hope of"] medicating her illness".
    Done
  • FN 79 should have "pp.". I'd have fixed this myself but it's in some format VE doesn't like.
    Done
  • "incorporating additional features such as the QTE difficulty levels based on fan feedback. Apart from this, because the game featured "spookier" and more spacious areas, the camera is now a controllable, 360-degree one, allowing players to look all around their character to aid in exploration, as opposed to being fully fixed as in previous entries." This doesn't seem to be quite supported by the source, which says the camera was made controllable because of fan feedback, not because of the spookier and more spacious areas -- the ability to see those better is cited as a benefit, not the reason. And the source explicitly lists only the two changes -- camera and QTE difficulty -- whereas the article text implies there are other changes. What does "Apart from this" mean here?
    • "apart from this" was intended to be a transition phrase, but it's clunky in hindsight so i did away with that. and the "more spacious" areas do have something to do with the choice - they opted for a 360-degree camera to further immerse players in the space. added a source to indicate this. - E.
  • The Astounding cover, which you show as being in the public domain, is still in copyright -- see here for the renewal. If you want to keep it you'll need a FUR.
    Added, hopefully correctly/the correct FUR.
    I don't think that will do it -- per WP:FUR we have to show that the image is necessary for the reader's understanding: "why the subject can't be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text or using free content media". I can't see what there is about this cover that is necessary to an understanding of this video game. Sorry, should have taken a few seconds longer to look at this when I pointed out it was still under copyright, but I think it would be best to remove the image. Pinging Nikki, who did the image review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:22, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed image. Chompy Ace 22:45, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

-- More later. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks
edit

I decided to do some spotchecks based on seeing a couple of slight misreadings of the sources above:

  • "David Hirst oversaw the art team's research into Mesopotamian architecture, dress, and headgear for use in the game. The temple featured in House of Ashes was based on real-life complexes from the Akkadian time period, aged to fit the game's 2003 setting by filling pathways with sand and breaking down the pillars and ceilings." The source has an article signed by "David Hirst, Art Director", which suffices for the first few words, and has "... we extensively studied ancient Mesopotamian architecture, dress, and headgear, filling in the gaps where necessary to create a realistic yet memorable look. Once the temple had been built, we had to age it appropriately for the modern-day sections of the game: shattering pillars, bringing down ceilings, and drowning corridors in sand". I see several problems here:
    • "Mesopotamian architecture, dress, and headgear" is straight from the source.
    • There's nothing to support "real-life complexes" (presumably temple complexes): Hirst doesn't say they looked at any specific real examples -- for all we know they read a few textbooks and cherry-picked architectural components they wanted to use.
    • "aged to fit the game's 2003 setting" -- unless I'm misunderstanding the source, it says this was only done for the modern parts of the game; some of the game shows the original unaged form of the temple. I think this might be what is meant by the wording in the article but it could be clearer.
    • "filling pathways with sand and breaking down the pillars and ceilings" is too close to "shattering pillars, bringing down ceilings, and drowning corridors in sand". See the example section in WP:CLOP; this is clearly a case where you've started with the given sentence and tried to rephrase it, which is not enough.
      • I am minded to disagree here - that's not a rephrase of a sentence, it's a complete recast. Compare (sorry Sandy) Once the temple had been built, we had to age it appropriately for the modern-day sections of the game: shattering pillars, bringing down ceilings, and drowning corridors in sand. (source) with The temple featured in House of Ashes was based on real-life complexes from the Akkadian time period, aged to fit the game's 2003 setting by filling pathways with sand and breaking down the pillars and ceilings (article), it's not that similar other than using the same terminology. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        The whole sentence is not as closely paraphrased as the example in WP:CLOP, I agree, but for the part of the sentence I quoted I think it's too close. I think this is one of those cases where in an attempt to sufficiently change the content the meaning has been slightly changed, meaning you could consider it inaccurate instead. "Pathways" and "corridors" are not the same thing, for example. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I did my best to rewrite this offending sentence and remove the close paraphrasing - E.
    The rewrite is better, but it still mentions temple complexes, which is not in the source, and I think in the attempt to distance the language from the original the vocabulary is getting strained. How about "... was inspired by the look of ancient Mesopotamian architecture. Once the temple was created, the team aged it for the scenes set in 2003, collapsing ceilings and pillars and drifting sand into corridors"? I'm aware that this brings it back closer to the source phrasing, but I think the other changes you made (e.g. eliminating "architecture, dress, and headgear") do enough, and I think "decrepit" and "support structures" are strained, and "all over the place" is not encyclopedic in tone. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:45, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I changed it to your suggested wording. -- ZooBlazer
    Struck. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Supermassive Games included easter eggs and callbacks to previous and future entries to create a shared universe within the anthology" is cited to "Each story is therefore a story in its own right. It’s not essential to have played the earlier games to understand and appreciate the later ones. Having said that, they are all set in the same universe, as evidenced by Easter eggs that can be found in each game that reference both earlier and later stories, and there is a parallel plot line." This is better but I think "easter eggs and callbacks" isn't quite supported, since it makes it sound as if there are cross-game references other than Easter eggs, and as far as I can see the source doesn't say that.
    • I tend to think that the parallel plot line is an additional thing that might be considered. Granted, it's a bit syntactically ambiguous in the source whether the "parallel plot" sentence fragment is supposed to depend on "they are all set in the same universe" Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I made an attempt to reword/rearrange the sentence. Is it better or are there still issues Mike Christie? -- ZooBlazer
    I see you still have "callbacks"; what does that refer to other than the Easter eggs? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:45, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In this case, one example I was thinking is that a flashback in the game takes place at the diner from the previous game that's just outside of the town from that game. Unless you'd consider that an Easter egg. I was thinking of Easter eggs as mostly, for example, things that players can read in a newspaper article that can be picked up similarly to the collectables. -- ZooBlazer 18:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't call that an Easter egg, but only Easter eggs are mentioned in this context in the source, aren't they? So saying callbacks isn't supported by the source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Changed the wording to remove callbacks. -- ZooBlazer 18:38, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Struck. I tweaked the wording some more. The "parallel storylines" wasn't the exact phrase used in the source, but that's not why I removed it; I took it out because it's not really clear what it means, and the source doesn't clarify. The other wording change was just to take the structure a little further away from the sentence in the source. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Supermassive attributed the decision to set the game in Iraq to the country's abundance in myths and folklore that the team could incorporate into the story" is sourced to "Game director Will Doyle’s research led the team at Supermassive Games to set the game in Iraq in 2003, due to a cluster of story potential in real-world legend and myth." This is fine, though I'd make it "abundance of myths ..." in the article.
    • Wording amended - E.
  • "so a percussive, Sumerian-style composition was used for the prologue. It progresses to a horror-themed orchestration of other instruments" is sourced to "Its simplicity allowed it to be very versatile, played on instruments synonymous with Sumerian culture, through orchestral instrumentation right through to a synthesized arrangement which implies the technological advancement exposed in the story. We could transpose the technique into different keys and different tempos to give it more kick, more intrigue, more drive, whatever we wanted. This was completely in sync with the broader musical direction and progression of the score as the story unfolds. The game opens in an historical setting some 2000 years ago with a percussive soundtrack to match, and as the horror starts to develop, we move into timeless-horror orchestral instrumentation". I don't think this works. The source doesn't say the prologue was in a Sumerian style; it says "instruments synonymous with Sumerian culture" were used, but it doesn't say the music was Sumerian (how could it be?) and it doesn't say those instruments were used for the prologue. "As the horror starts to develop" is unsourced, and "horror-themed orchestration of other instruments" is too close to "timeless-horror orchestral instrumentation", and "other" doesn't mean anything as we haven't specified any instruments used in the prologue -- though you could perhaps get away with that as "percussive" does imply certain instruments.
    • reworded to "percussive composition inspired by Sumerian music". per the PS Blog "The game opens in a historical setting some 2,000 years ago and as the horror starts to develop we move into timeless orchestral instrumentation", so where the sumer-esque music fits is clear. not sure why the "as the horror starts to develop" comment is here --- how is it an unsourced part of the article (quotation is not even there) when it is right over here? - E.
      My mistake on "As the horror starts to develop"; I was reviewing the article against the source here in the edit window, having copied them in, and misread it; sorry about that. You've fixed the main things I was concerned about -- "Sumerian-style composition" and "other instruments". Quoting "timeless" also helps. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Consequently, House of Ashes includes over 60 death scenes" is sourced to "there's at least 60 unique deaths and there's a whole ton of variation on that as well". No issues.
    Struck just to make it clearer at a glance that this is not an outstanding issue. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The developers believed the 2003–2011 Iraq War would make an "interesting" departure point for the development of the five main characters, allowing them the opportunity for character motivations, relationships, and dynamics the developers found compelling, sympathetic, and complex." This is sourced to two articles: I had a look through and didn't find enough to support all of this, but perhaps I missed some supporting text. I found "It's an interesting point to start off from for character motivations, and it allowed us to build up a team of characters that work together, that know each other,” McDonald says. “You get camaraderie and tension. Everyone doesn't always get on. Not a single one of them is clean and innocent. They've each got their own baggage that they bring with them. We wanted to make [our characters] more complex and nuanced." and "But it's also based on a very real - and very recent - conflict, something Supermassive wanted as a setting to explore various conflicts between its cast, and the need to overcome these together in order to survive. " I see there's a relationship between the source text and what's in the article, and "complex" is certainly supported, but where to you get "compelling" from? "Sympathetic" maybe. And does the source draw the connection directly from the Iraq War to "allowing ... the opportunity for character motivations, relationships, and dynamics"?
    • I think what the sources are trying to say is that the developers wanted, first and foremost, to write a story about peoples' humanity despite their differing backgrounds and characters, believing that soldiers from both sides of the 2003 invasion could make for good characters that demonstrate this theme. This part of the paragraph has been reworded. - E.
      The new version is "Doyle wanted a story about unity between adversaries to highlight their humanity despite their differences, and he believed that the Iraq War was a good setup for writing conflicts and complex characters that convey this theme." Sorry, but I still can't draw a line from the sentences quoted above to this. What in the source supports the first half of this? Unity between adversaries is mentioned in "the need to overcome [internal conflicts] together in order to survive", but what in the source connects this to highlighting their humanity? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:00, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      My best guess is that comes from this article - The important thing for us was that they were enemies, and also that they're human. We wanted to show human aspects of their personality and put those aspects under strain. So, when faced with this absolutely implacable, hostile foe, it naturally brings out the humanity in the characters -- ZooBlazer 15:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, that does it. Thanks; striking this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to pause here and register an oppose based on these. I checked six chunks of text and only two came up clean, and that's in addition to the two minor discrepancies with the sources that I'd already noted in the content review I was doing. If you fix these and another reviewer does a spotcheck and it comes up clean I'd be happy to revisit. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added a few comments myself here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:42, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mike Christie: done with responding to the new comments and the unresolved ones from the first sweep. ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 12:25, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I realized after I posted this that Jo-Jo had already done a spotcheck that came up clean, which makes me think it's probably not an issue throughout the article. I will try to look at your responses this evening but I have a lot going on in RL for a few days and can't say when I can get back to this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:04, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries about that for me. ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 16:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No rush. Your spotcheck was beneficial, so it was probably good to have you do one as well. -- ZooBlazer 16:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, additional spotchecks are always good. Especially this month, where I am trying to get some arduous work done at Licancabur and Llullaillaco so my attention might be less sufficient than usual. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:46, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck the oppose; there are a couple of points still to deal with but the fixes plus the fact that a spotcheck was already done mean I don't think it's likely there are pervasive problems. I'll do another couple of spotchecks once the above are struck. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I missed any, I think there has now been an attempt at addressing the remaining unstruck spotchecks. -- ZooBlazer 15:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone through again and there's now just one outstanding. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:20, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All points now struck. I will read through again shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of minor points from a second read through.

  • "the synthesizers are added after the game's twist to evoke imagery of highly advanced technology": what is the twist referred to here?
    Reworded. The twist is the reveal of the adavanced technology of the aliens.
  • "A trailer for the next game in the anthology, as well as the season one finale, The Devil in Me, was featured at the end of House of Ashes": what does "season one finale" refer to?
    Season one refers to the first four games of the anthology.
  • "Two reviewers wrote about the game's branching story and butterfly effect elements, finding them well-executed": as a result of an earlier comment there are now no earlier references to the butterfly effect, so this is opaque. Suggest 'Two reviewers wrote about the game's branching story elements and the "bearings" feature, finding them well-executed'.
    Changed

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Feel free to revert my copyedits if you don't approve of any of them. "Season one" surprised me a bit because I don't think there's been a previous reference to the anthology elements being released in seasons, but it's a minor point and it's not worth holding up support for. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:26, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie Would it help to change the lead to include a mention of the season towards the beginning? Something like "The Dark Pictures Anthology: House of Ashes is a 2021 interactive drama and survival horror video game. Developed by Supermassive Games and published by Bandai Namco Entertainment, it is the third game of the first season and third instalment overall in The Dark Pictures Anthology." -- ZooBlazer 17:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that would help. And if you're going to mention the season in the lead you should change the body to support that, of course. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:22, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Added -- ZooBlazer 22:45, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support. Your comments have been extremely helpful as always. ‍  Elias 🪐  (dreaming of Saturn; talk here) 02:25, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment

edit
It was an open question. Was the bold in the original? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild The source is a YouTube interview, so the text was just transcribed to the ref to make it easier. The video is also time stamped for listening purposes, so the written part isn't absolutely necessary, just more of a convenience for readers. -- ZooBlazer 20:09, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the other instance is a transcription from a scene in the game. -- ZooBlazer 20:10, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In which case, no, they shouldn't be in bold. I need to do a last check, but I think we are just waiting for Jo-Jo to come back on the source review. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:15, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild All bold in the references has been removed. -- ZooBlazer 20:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Is there anything else that needs to be done? Multiple supports, no opposes, and image and source reviews completed with everything addressed. -- ZooBlazer 22:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment only the source review is outstanding. Jo-Jo is, as always, busy, but I am sure that they will get round to either passing it or posting further comments in the next day or two. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(Technically, I am not so much busy as much as there isn't a lot of work on WP to do for me) Technically, my source review is complete. The only caveat is that I am relying heavily on Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources and I am not 100% sure that its definition of RS always lines up with the "high-quality reliable sources" requirement of the FA criteria. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

edit
Resolved comments

Recusing to review.

  • "The films Aliens, Predator, and The Descent, as well as the H. P. Lovecraft novella At the Mountains of Madness and the myth of the Curse of Akkad, influenced the developers' design for the creatures, which were made using motion capture and hand animation, and the temple, which was inspired by ancient Mesopotamian architecture." Did the inspiration for the temple come only from Mesopotamian architecture or did the aforementioned fiction work also influence its creation? If the latter, should there perhaps be an "also" before "was inspired"?
    I ended up just separating the influences from the creatures and temple design info.
  • In reference to my previous comment, the text in the main body reads "Inspirations for the story and design included the films Aliens (1986), Predator (1987), and The Descent (2005); the H. P. Lovecraft novella At the Mountains of Madness (1936); and various facets of Mesopotamian culture such as the myth of the Curse of Akkad." and "The House of Ashes temple was inspired by the look of ancient Mesopotamian architecture." It looks like the films and the novella didn't inspire the creation of the template, but the way the sentence in the lead is structured, it reads as if they did. Also, the main body only says that the films and the novella inspired the design whereas the lead says "design for the creatures". The lead is supposed to be a repetition of the rest of the article so if the inspiration was indeed only for the creatures' design, the "Story and design" subsection should reflect that.
    I think it's okay now as I changed the lead wording based on your previous comment.
  • "The game additional features such as the QTE difficulty levels and a new camera system based on fan feedback" - there is a word missing before "additional features".
    Fixed
  • "The project expanded Tisdale's career experience beyond her usual roles in comedy, which made Tisdale agree to provide Rachel's voice and likeness,[6] making her debut as a video game actor." The way this sentence is structured, it can be interpreted as suggesting that Rachel is making her debut as a video game actor rather than Tisdale. This ambiguity arises because the phrase "making her debut as a video game actor" directly follows the mention of Rachel's name, creating a possible association between the two.
    Cleaned up
  • "However, for VentureBeat journalist Dean Takahashi, while House of Ashes introduced many improvements to the anthology, the series started to become formulaic with its release,[7] whereas an unknown Edge critic wrote that some of the systems supporting the series were becoming outdated." Can we divide the sentence into two distinct clauses? I find it unnecessarily complex and confusing due to the simultaneous use of contrasting conjunctions ("while", "whereas", "however") and the placement of the clauses.
    Reworded
  • "Two reviewers wrote about the game's branching story elements and the "bearings" feature" - only one of the two sources use the word "bearings" but the sentence makes it seem like they both used that exact word (given that it is in quotes).
    Reworded
  • "Play's Jess Kinghorn called them serviceable but wished some actors had gone bigger" - what does "bigger" mean?
    Noted that "gone bigger" is a quote from the source and tried to slightly expand to make it clearer hopefully.
I understand that you’re quoting the source but it should still make sense to the average encyclopedia reader, and IMO "gone bigger" is a colloquial expression. My assumption is that in this context, "gone bigger" means that the reviewer wished some actors had delivered more exaggerated or intense performances, possibly with more energy or dramatic flair, but I could be wrong. If it indeed means that, you could rephrase it as something like: "Play's Jess Kinghorn described the performances as serviceable but suggested that some actors should have displayed more intensity." or "...displayed more dramatic presence". FrB.TG (talk) 03:29, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FrB.TG Went ahead and changed it to your first suggestion. -- ZooBlazer 04:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The camera work was deemed superior to that of previous Dark Pictures games,[7][10][12] with praise for its ability to evoke claustrophobia.[11][28][73] Despite this,[14][71]" - sources 14 and 71 seem to be for the praise directed towards the camera work and its "ability to evoke claustrophobia" so they should be accordingly placed in the previous sentence. I don't know why you're introducing new sources here. FrB.TG (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure what happened there. I moved each to the appropriate sport.

@FrB.TG: Thanks for the review. I think I've addressed all of your comments. -- ZooBlazer 16:44, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I don't have anything else to add. I have capped my comments now. FrB.TG (talk) 07:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that FrB.TG, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not formally voting but I think it is ready for closure now. FrB.TG (talk) 15:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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