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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Longing/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15 February 2023 [1].

The Longing

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Nominator(s): The Night Watch (talk) 02:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a video game that takes 400 days to complete. The good news is that you don’t need to have the game open for any of its 9600(!) hour playtime. But what’s the fun in beating a game without playing it? So for the players who want some actual gameplay, you can spend the 400 days doing…not much. You can read books from the minds of Friedrich Nietzsche or Herman Melville, walk through caves at a laughably slow pace, or watch as your character makes crude drawings of the moon, lice, or abstract concepts. Thankfully, the 400-day timer can be sped up, or you can always just ignore the deadline and help your character escape the caves. The choice is yours: Will you help the little Shade see the sun for the first time? Or will you stay and awaken the sleeping king, and make him keep his promise of "a world without longing"? This is my first FAC, so hit away. It is reliably sourced, and covers some of the principal ideas behind development, and I believe that it is just shy of the FA criteria. The Night Watch (talk) 02:04, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments by ChrisTheDude

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  • This reads oddly to me: "Pyta disliked their repetitive gameplay and lack of an ending, only to quit playing due to the absence of a profound conclusion" - does the last part mean specifically that he had played such games but given up for that reason? That he had the impression that people generally did that? Or something else?
    • He played those games but gave up for that reason
  • "He began listening to dungeon synth music and residing in cellar" - should be either "He began listening to dungeon synth music and residing in cellars"

or "He began listening to dungeon synth music and residing in a cellar" (depending on how many cellars he actually lived in)

    • Corrected, thanks.
  • "The developer used own his experiences" => "The developer used his own experiences"
    • Corrected
  • Refs after "happiness helps to endure waiting" are in the wrong order
  • "Pyta wished players would not restart" => "Pyta hoped that players would not restart"
  • "Nintendo Life accredited the art and sounds" - accredited is not the right word here. I would say "Nintendo Life praised the art and sounds"
  • "Adventure Gamers questioned whether The Longing would have found an audience outside the pandemic. The reviewer opined that players would have had little interest in topics of loneliness, and the game's appeal would have been aided through isolation brought by the lockdowns" - the first part of the second sentence concerns what the reviewer felt would have happened if it had not been released during COVID (following on from the previous sentence), but the second part is their view on what actually happened when it was, so they do not flow together. I would suggest "Adventure Gamers questioned whether The Longing would have found an audience outside the pandemic, as players would have had little interest in topics of loneliness; its release in 2020, however, meant that the game's appeal would have been aided through isolation brought by the lockdowns"
  • That's what I got -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:38, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by David Fuchs

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  • General:
    • It seems odd there's not really anything about what the plot ends up being and the results of taking the different approaches to playing it, especially since the plot was supposed to be a major point of advancing it beyond a clicker game, according to the reception.
Added plot section that covers some of the relevant endings. The plot may seem complex according to reception, but really most of the action only occurs at the beginning and end.
    • My main stumbling block is the development section. It's tough when crafting a development section when a lot of the content is sourced from the developer or interviews with same, but I have a nagging feeling that there's a POV issue when reading the development section. Lots of focus on Pyta's thoughts and feelings overall, lots of quotes and unclear language that seems focused on what he said rather than what the article should be trying to convey. Some of this might just be a matter of summarizing content further (I wouldn't say the quotes by Pyta are generally helping explain things succinctly.) Right now I think the article fails the prose requirement.
I have further summarized the development section, though I am not sure how the prose can improved. Is there anything specific you want changed?
  • Prose:
    • "Set in an underground kingdom, it follows the Shade, a creature tasked with watching over a sleeping king for 400 days. The player explores caves, draws pictures, and reads books as they wait out the 400 days in real time." — to a neophyte, this might not be totally clear that you as the player control the Shade, so I would make that explicit in the first sentence (e.g. "the player controls the Shade, a creature tasked..." Or similar.)
    • "Other mechanics are reminiscent of idle games,[6] such an idle reading feature and a "bookmark system", through which the player can instruct the Shade to automatically walk to a saved location, return to its home, or randomly wander around." Even as a seasoned game player, as I'm unfamiliar with idle games I have no idea what this is really saying, either in the idle reading feature, or how the bookmark system works.
Explained
    • "Performing certain actions inside the Shade's home causes time to progress. For example, decorating the walls with drawings results in the timer advancing a few seconds faster. Other pastimes, such as reading or lighting a fire, can be done to move the clock further." This part of the paragraph feels like it should be in the previous one, where the time mechanic is covered in depth?
    • "The Longing features several endings, and not all require the player to wait out the 400 days." Again, feel like I want something explaining what some of these endings actually are.
    • Does Pyta ever actually get called a "director"? I don't see the term in a lot of the development info used, and if he's basically the main developer minus additional coding, just "developer" seems to make much more sense.
    • "Reception of the game was largely positive; It won the "Best Debut" award at the 2020 Deutscher Computerspielpreis[25] and was nominated for the Nuovo Award at the 2020 Independent Games Festival.[26] On the review aggregate website Metacritic, the PC and Switch versions received "generally favorable reviews"." The ordering here doesn't make a ton of sense; the strongest support for 'reception of the game was largely positive' is the Metacritic average, not the award nominations.
    • " and reviews of The Longing repeatedly alluded to the Tamagotchi virtual pet" repeatedly alluded to what, specifically, about the Tamagotchi?
They compared it to the Tamagotchi.
    • I don't particularly see any reason the types of works players can read should be put into a footnote versus just stated that you can choose to read classical works.
  • Media:
Changed picture.
    • While the rationale for File:TheLongingVideoGame ShadeHome.png has been beefed up, I think there needs to be more in the text to buttress the fair use rationale. The reception says that critics liked the Shade's environment, but don't go into any detail that an image significantly enhances that information.
David Fuchs, updated the cave image and changed the FUR to describe how the appearance and role of the Shade (depicted in the image) are subject to some commentary by the Developer later in the article. Are these changes alright? The Night Watch (talk) 03:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • References:
    • Reference check forthcoming.
    • Spot-checked statements attributed to current refs 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11, 12, 19, 26, 27, 28, 33, and 34. Didn't spot issues with close paraphrasing or verifiability issues.
Thanks for that. These interviews are especially tricky since the developer used some archaic language and there's bound to be at least one that slipped through the cracks.
David Fuchs, I have addressed all your comments, though I am unsure of how to proceed with the prose in the development section. Is the prose too much work for a FAC? If so, this may need to be archived so I can work on it later. The Night Watch (talk) 17:02, 20 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given the relatively short length of the article I don't think that's an issue. It's looking better, I will try and do a line edit this week. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:36, 24 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:00, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@David Fuchs, Shooterwalker and I have worked through the prose. Mind taking another look? The Night Watch (talk) 17:03, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will take another look this weekend. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 23:19, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:08, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support for prose by Shooterwalker

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Here by popular demand and happy to help. I'm going to take a look at the development section for now. I can try to look at the other sections when I find more time. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Pyta first gained the idea for The Longing in 2012, while he was hiking in the Barbarossa Cave." -> "The concept for The Longing came from Pyta's experience hiking in the Barbarossa Cave."
  • "A legend centered around the cave spoke of an old king sleeping inside for hundreds of years, while a poem mentioned a dwarf checking on the king once per century to see if he would awaken." -> "According to legend, the cave was home to an old king sleeping inside for hundreds of years, while a poem mentioned a dwarf checking on the king once per century to see if he would awaken."
  • "Although he created most of The Longing's art, mechanics, and sound design alone, Pyta received some help with the coding." -> "He created most of the game alone, including its art, sound design, and mechanics, while receiving some help with the game's coding."
  • "choosing to include stakes that provoked an emotional response from his audience." -> "and with emotionally higher stakes."
  • "were the only medium through which time could be exceedingly used in storytelling." -> "could uniquely use extended time to tell a story."
  • "He surmised that waiting could be paired with the correct premise to create an emotional feel, but felt challenged in avoiding redundancy with his mechanics" -> "He hoped to find the right premise for the mechanics of waiting, but found it challenging to avoid repetitiveness."
  • "which helped him imagine the theme of loneliness and describe the subterranean atmosphere" -> "which helped him imagine the game's lonely and subterranean atmosphere."
  • "Gameplay was primarily envisioned along three possible "routes" that the player would take: doing nothing but wait for the timer to advance, trying to make the Shade's life comfortable while waiting, or abandoning the king and leave the caves." -> "He envisioned three broad "routes" that the player could choose: waiting idly for the timer to advance, comforting the Shade during their time in the cave, or abandoning the king and leaving the caves."
  • "Pyta found the first route useful, because it did not cause stress." -> this is unclear. Is it about the stress to the player, or the stress to him as a designer?
  • "The theme of loneliness was partially based upon Pyta's own emotional experiences, and he explored it through the design of the Shade." -> this part isn't really clear either. What experiences did he add to the game? If there isn't anything specific, I would just drop it. You address the design of the Shade in the next sentence.
  • "In particular, he deliberately made the Shade's appearance and emotions cryptic, in order to allow his audience to perceive their own feelings through the character, and interpret its traits how they saw fit." -> "He designed the Shade with a cryptic appearance and motivation, so the audience could project their own feelings onto the character."
  • "He cited empathy between the player and protagonist to be one of his goals towards retaining user interest." -> "He realized that empathy between the player and protagonist would be essential to retaining user interest"
  • " Furthermore, he needed ways to remind his audience that progress was occurring, even if it was not readily apparent. To this end, he implemented certain behaviors for the Shade that changed as time passed, such as self-talking and sleeping, and showed rocks falling in the cave to record the passing of time in the place of a day-night cycle." -> "It was also important to give players a sense of progress through the slow game, and Pyta illustrated this through the accumulation of falling rocks within the cave, as well as the Shade's monolog."
Let's start there. This can definitely get to FA with some work. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:11, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Shooterwalker! David Fuchs beat me to a few of the copyedits, but I implemented the ones you suggested. The Night Watch (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There might be a few other issues that you didn't cover in the development section. But let's shift our attention to another section for now. We can always come back, depending on how what other reviewers say. Let's focus on the reception section.
  • The reception section should generally start with how it was received and reviewed. The launch information doesn't really belong in the reception. It's really the end of the development, or in some cases a "release" section or subsection.
  • "Critics praised The Longing's experimental premise." needs a citation. I understand the implication that it's meant to summarize many sources that follow, but it's better if readers (and reviewers) can verify the statement in at least a few sources directly.
  • Try "PC Gamer Sweden"
  • "that its creativity helped him better understand" -> "that it demonstrated the potential of"
  • The statement about the tamagotchi-like gameplay might fit better with the paragraph that follows. It's better to have a focused paragraph about atmosphere and art. Additionally, I'd put the gameplay paragraph before the art/atmosphere/music paragraph.
  • "Nintendo Life called the game "perhaps the most boring we have ever played", saying that although The Longing acted as a thoughtful reflection on loneliness, the large amount of waiting made it feel like a waste of time." -> "Nintendo Life called the game "perhaps the most boring we have ever played", praising its thoughtful reflection on loneliness while criticizing the wait times as tedious."
  • "On the other hand, The Washington Post enjoyed the slowness, comparing it to the works of filmmaker Béla Tarr and saying it helped the mind wander." -> "On the other hand, The Washington Post praised the slowness for allowing the player's mind to wander, comparing it to the works of filmmaker Béla Tarr."
  • I might invert the positive / negative in the gameplay section. It's probably more WP:NPOV by convention, but also helps readers to understand what worked before criticizing what didn't.
  • "compared playing to life under quarantine." -> "compared the game experience to life under quarantine."
  • "GamesRadar+ analogized The Longing to experiencing a COVID-19 lockdown," -> "GamesRadar+ likened The Longing to the COVID-19 lockdown,"
  • "Adventure Gamers questioned whether The Longing would have found an audience outside the pandemic, as players would have had little interest in topics of loneliness; its release in 2020, however, meant that the game's appeal would have been aided through isolation brought by the lockdowns." -> "Adventure Gamers suggested that the game's release during the lockdown made the theme of loneliness more relevant, thus enhancing the game's appeal."
  • "Pyta thought the pandemic allowed for players to better connect with the Shade." -> Pyta's comments don't really belong in the reception, and more belong with the development. (In fact, the timing of the release and his interpretation of that would make for a better ending paragraph in the development section.)
Let's keep poking away at this, section by section. Thanks for your hard work. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've rewritten much of Reception. The only thing I didn't change was PC Gamer which is Italicized per its article. The Night Watch (talk) 18:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shooterwalker Follow-up ping The Night Watch (talk) 14:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Switching to the gameplay section. The grammar is basically good, but several sentences are phrased in a way as to make things unclear.
  • "may spend their time underground doing whatever they wish" is somewhat unclear in the context of a video game. There's obviously only so many actions that the game will allow you to do, so it's helpful to know what those actions are. (You sort of answer this in the next sentence, so maybe it's better just to drop this part.)
  • The comparison of the reading feature to idle games is a little unclear unless someone is familiar with the conventions of the genre.
  • Is the bookmark system just a fast travel system?
No, the Shade just automatically walks to a certain location in real-time.
  • If you don't need to improve the Shade's life to win, then what is the benefit?
There really is none. The player can decorate the cave to increase the passing of time, but the ending remains the same, unless you choose to leave/commit suicide.
  • Does the King explain how long the sleep will be, or is the timer left ambiguous?
The king explains how long it will be.
  • "The Shade is granted permission to wander wherever it wishes underground, but is warned by the king to never leave the caves." -> "The King gives permission to the Shade to wander the caves, but warns it against leaving."
  • "leaving the kingdom" -> are the caves the kingdom / is the King the master of the caves?
Yes, it is set in an underground kingdom.
  • Is the ending with the child vs the old man totally random, or does it depend on some gameplay?
The player can influence who the Shade is rescued by. Is there a way to describe this? Or should I leave as-is?
Once we're done there, we can give the whole article one more pass, including the lead. Shooterwalker (talk) 18:33, 30 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We've jumped between all the sections, so let's take a shot at the whole thing. There will be some work to do.
  • Lead
    • The placement of the word "independent" reads strangely. Maybe independent developer? This could also be a chance to name the main developer. (e.g.: "by Anselm Pyta at Studio Seufz.")
    • "explores caves, draws pictures, and reads books" -> are these really the only three actions? You mention the drawings in the next sentence. Maybe you could drop this, or phrase it to describe the gameplay more generally.
    • "conceived The Longing" -> "conceived of The Longing"
    • Link to the relevant legend, and maybe even find a way to mention the Barbarossa Cave in the sentence. (I have a further comment on this at the end of my review.)
    • "backgrounds. Adobe Flash" -> I think this is meant to be a comma.
    • For the last point, is it important to know the developer made the game using flash and photoshop, and does that really need to be in the lead?
    • "Many commentators drew comparisons between the game and the COVID-19 pandemic, relating gameplay elements to life under quarantine." -> "Released during the COVID-19 pandemic, many commentators compared the game to life under quarantine."
  • Gameplay
    • "whatever they wish" probably isn't accurate, and should be explained in the text. You could also drop it, since you elaborate on the actions the game supports in the next sentence.
    • It might be clear to some readers, but one of the ideas from the idle game genre is that you can walk away from the game and the world still progresses. You really want to make that clear at the start of this paragraph. That would help readers understand how the bookmark system or the book reading mechanic are accomplished, as opposed to the ordinary gameplay expectation that they are the Shade and just do things directly.
    • These are two important fixes, but the section has otherwise improved in its clarity and readability.
  • Development
    • "he believed with the right story it could foster user investment" -> "he believed that waiting could cultivate player investment by having a strong story."
    • "He began listening to dungeon synth music, which helped him imagine the theme of loneliness and describe the subterranean atmosphere." -> "The game's lonely and subterranean atmosphere was inspired by dungeon synth music."
    • "Gameplay was primarily envisioned along three" -> "He (also) imagined three"
    • "Waiting offered" / "while leaving forces" -> the mix of verb tenses here is a little confusing. Try to pick a verb tense and stick with it. (You seem to prefer past tense.)
    • "Needing ways to remind players progress was occurring," -> "In order to show players their progress,"
    • "passing of time in lieu of" -> "passing of time, in lieu of"
    • Moving the release info to this section was the right call. But the awards should go in the reception section. (Typically this is at the end, after the other reviews.)
  • Reception
    • The opening sentence can probably be stated more simply, without the semi-colon.
    • To be more clear, would we say some critics praised the experimental premise? Or could we go so far as to say many?
    • "Nintendo Life shared in this opinion, saying that the game was "perhaps the most boring we have ever played" and although the reviewer liked its reflection on loneliness, he criticized the wait times as tedious." -> This is a pretty long and cluttered sentence. Do we need to mention that they criticized the wait times and include a quote about it being the most boring? It seems redundant.
    • "The Longing's design" -> "The Longing's artistic direction" (feels more accurate / inclusive)
    • "The atmosphere in particular was variously described as" -> "Journalists variously described the game's atmosphere as" (avoid passive voice)
    • "similar praise" doesn't really flow from the previous sentence, which talks about the game as "dull and uninteresting".
    • "displaying" -> "representing" (display is distinctly visual)
    • "feeling as though the songs expressed the breadth of the kingdom and the Shade's small size in comparison" -> "feeling that the songs expressed the Shade's small size in such a large subterranean kingdom."
    • "the atmosphere" --> "the overall atmosphere" or even "the environment"
    • Shorten the comment from the Wired into a single sentence, and try to focus on one or two main ideas to keep the sentence simple.
  • Other
    • While not strictly forbidden, "see also" sections tend to be less useful than linking to the topic in context. See if you can incorporate the Kyffhäuser legend into the article text, when the legend / inspiration comes up. (And consider adding it to the lead too.)
    • There are some duplicate entries in the references (particularly for metacritic).
Feel free to let me know if there are any comments that you want to discuss. I think we are close to having prose that we can sign off on as FA quality. Thanks for your work on this. Shooterwalker (talk) 23:28, 31 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Shooterwalker All done here. My apologies for the delay, I have been feeling a bit ill recently. Once again, thank you for the review! The Night Watch (talk) 00:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're in the final stretch. A few minor comments:
  • You made a typo after "dungeon synth music(.)"
  • "He imagined three possible routes that the player would take: doing nothing but wait for the timer to advance, trying to make the Shade's life comfortable while waiting, or abandoning the king and leaving the caves." -> "He imagined three possible routes that the player could take: waiting idly for the timer to advance, trying to make the Shade's life comfortable during the 400 days, or abandoning the king and leaving the caves."
  • It's probably still best to separate the development paragraph from the release paragraph.
I think that's it. I would feel comfortable recommending the article's prose as FA quality, those changes aside. Shooterwalker (talk) 02:34, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. The Night Watch (talk) 02:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for working through all the comments. The article is in solid shape and I can recommend it for FA based on the prose. Shooterwalker (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Spotchecks not done

  • Why do some web sources include both website and publisher and others only website? In some cases this is done with the same source, eg FN10 vs 12
Removed publishers for consistency
It is the only source that I could find for that tidbit, and I thought it would be somewhat reliable because it was originally called IndieGames.com, a sister website to Game Developer, and both are listed as reliable on WP:VG/S. But if the new source appears to have some problems, I can always just cut it out. The Night Watch (talk) 22:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nikkimaria, what do you think? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest removing that source. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:10, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done The Night Watch (talk) 00:18, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note for coordinators - given that the nominator is yet to have their first FA, this should have spot-checks for copyvio and source-to-text integrity. FrB.TG (talk) 19:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

David Fuchs did some checks, but he did not look at refs 6, 8, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 31, 32. Hope this helps, The Night Watch (talk) 20:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria, just a nudge. The Night Watch (talk) 04:10, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't do spotchecks as part of my review - suggest checking with the coords if David Fuchs' spotcheck is sufficient. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: would these spot checks be sufficient? The Night Watch (talk) 04:43, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They would, unless Mr Fuchs feels differently? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:16, 7 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another set of eyes is always welcome, but I’ll take another look given that the text has been workshopped significantly since I first did it as well. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 12:31, 8 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs follow-up ping. The Night Watch (talk) 18:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did another review of refs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 (the gameplay section), 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 (dev), 18, 19, 20 (beginning of reception). Ran into an issue accessing 15 with a redirect (might want to double-check it and mark as a dead-url if it doesn't come back to direct people to the archive.) Otherwise still didn't run into issues with close paraphrasing or imprecise/incorrect citations, nothing failed verification. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you David! It looks as though ref 15 died, so I marked the URL as such. @FAC coordinators: anything else needed? The Night Watch (talk) 22:04, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

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Recusing to review.

  • There are several duplinks.
Removed some duplinks that appear outside of the Lead.
  • References: Why are some article titles in sentence case and others in title case?
I kept the original titles as they came out of the source. This appears in other video game FAs such as Sonic 06, Katana Zero, Proteus etc.
See MOS:TITLECAPS.
  • "the in-game timer advancing a few seconds faster." Seconds aren't a unit of speed. I am struggling to work out what is meant here. Is there a one-off gain of a few seconds?
It advances two/three/four seconds (per second) instead of one. I can’t really think of a way to say this. Perhaps "advancing by multiple seconds per interval"?
Perhaps "results in the in-game timer advancing more rapidly" or similar. Perhaps with a "slightly" or "significantly" if appropriate. I think removing "a few seconds" improves the current wording.
  • "A post-credits scene afterwards". "afterwards is unnecessary.
Removed
You sure?
  • "forced the player to solve puzzles and navigate increasingly dangerous caves. He described the greatest challenge as". The greatest challenge for players?
Greatest challenge in developing the game. Reworded

I think I may need to recuse and review this one. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • "while using time as a game mechanic." Would that be better as 'while using time as a game mechanism'?
  • Is it worth having a red link for Nuovo Award?
  • "serving an old king". Would 'serving an elderly king' work better?
  • "such as reading books on its own." Is "on its own" necessary?
  • "Another mechanic called the "bookmark system" " 'mechanism'. Or is this a US/UK thing?
Mechanism works, but it is also called a Game mechanic
Ah. Well, I'm not going to insist, but I think it would read more smoothly for the average reader with "mechanism".
  • "that an exit to the caves exists". Or 'that an exit from the caves exists'?
  • "Pyta disliked that they lacked endings." Optional: ' Pyta disliked their lack of endings'?

Nice article. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:03, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I believe I have addressed your comments, and changed the sourcing to Titlecase The Night Watch (talk) 22:36, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All good except the references, which are still a mix of sentence and title case. Eg see cites 15 and 16. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:59, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I fixed all of them. The Night Watch (talk) 23:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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