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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The boy Jones/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 9 January 2024 [1].

The boy Jones

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Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 14:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another of those rather odd characters from history with one of those interesting-footnote-to-history type stories. This is one about a teenager who kept breaking into Buckingham Palace until he annoyed the authorities so much they stuck him in the Royal Navy for a spell and ended up booting him off to Australia to keep him as far away from Queen Victoria as possible. Some fantastic assistance at PR from Tim O'Doherty and Anarchyte, to whom great thanks. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 14:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tim O'Doherty

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Support per my comments at PR. Cheers, Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tim: I'm much obliged to you for the work you did there. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • File:The_Boy_Wot_Visits_the_Palace_(Cropped).jpg: as per the UK tag, the image description should include details on the research done to attempt to identify the author. Ditto File:The_Boy_Jones_spying_on_Victoria_and_Albert.jpg, File:Cartoon_of_The_boy_Jones_in_The_Odd_Fellow_-_Saturday_24_April_1841,_page_1.jpg, File:The_Boy_Jones,_as_depicted_in_Punch,_July_1844.jpg, File:The_Boy_Jones,_as_depicted_in_Punch,_August_1844.jpg, File:A_Stranger_in_Her_Majesty's_Bedroom_penny_press.jpg, File:The_Boy_Wot_Visits_The_Palace.webp

Anarchyte

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Support per my comments at the PR. Again, great work here. Anarchyte (talk) 08:21, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley

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Apologies for missing the peer review. A few minor quibbles:

  • Lead
  • "He was found hiding under a sofa by staff" – there is nothing wrong with the passive voice in the right place, but I wonder if the shorter, active would be crisper here: "Staff found him hiding under a sofa"?
  • "sentenced to three month's hard labour ... and sentenced to three months hard labour" – the singular possessive "month's" is wrong. I would write "three months' hard labour", but I think the construction also works without a possessive, as in the second example. Consistency either way would be best.
  • "To relocate Jones outside of Britain" – why "of"?
  • Break-ins, 1838–1841
  • "She was not in residence at the time, but was staying at her country residence, Windsor Castle" – infelicitous repetition of "residence" (and was Windsor in the countryside in 1838?)
  • "William Prendergast, Jones's solicitor" – how do we know he was William? It isn't in the cited source?
  • "but his unpunctuality led to him again losing his position" – gerundive usage of "losing" calls for "his" rather than "him"
  • November and December 1840
  • "there were too many people moving around, so he left" – in my, possibly old-fashioned, view "so" is not a conjunction in formal English.
  • "Neither the Queen or her baby were woken" – "was" rather than "were"
  • "how he entered, so he was taken to the palace" – "so", as above
  • "returned to the council to continue questioning" – he was being questioned rather than questioning
  • "Bridewell for three month's hard labour" – as above
  • Later life, 1841–1893
  • "convinced Tom Clancy" – rather an Americanism for a BrE article. In the King's English one convinces that or persuades to
  • "swapped his uniform jacket for a black cost" – typo for"coat"?
  • Britain, 1848–1853
  • "a man wearing sailors dress" – this could do with a possessive
  • Coverage in the media
  • "the novelist Charles Dickens recorded in his literary magazine All the Year Round that it was because of "Jones's extraordinary powers" – that what was because of them?

I hope these few suggestions are helpful. I much enjoyed the article. Tim riley talk 09:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • "He broke in again in 1840, nine days after Queen Victoria had given birth to Princess Victoria. He was found hiding under a sofa by staff" => "He broke in again in 1840, nine days after Queen Victoria had given birth to Princess Victoria, and was found hiding under a sofa by staff"
  • "Lewisham, in what was then Kent, but now south London" - this could be interpreted as meaning that Kent was completely renamed to south London. I suggest "Lewisham, at the time in Kent, but now in south London"
  • "Jones had some basic education" - phrased like this, it could refer to either Henry or Edward
  • "which led palace staff think he had" => "which led palace staff to think that he had"
  • "When asked here he came from" => "When asked where he came from"
  • "and after he ran out of money, he ate raw turnips" => "and, after he ran out of money, ate raw turnips"
    Either version is grammatically correct, but I prefer fewer rather than more commas. - SchroCat (talk) 12:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One of them, who was dressed like a dressed like a midshipman," - repeated words there
  • Note f: "A guinea was a gold coin whose value was officially fixed at twenty-one shilling" => "A guinea was a gold coin whose value was officially fixed at twenty-one shillings" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Many thanks ChrisTheDude. All done, except the one piece of advice on comma use, where I've demurred. Thanks as always. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:31, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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  • How does the definition of stalker suit Jones? He does not seem to have been after any particular person, since as far as this article states, he never saw Victoria and was there at least once in her absence (I imagine if he knew about such things, the royal standard would have shown Victoria's presence). I see that one of the works about Jones calls him Her Majesty's Stalker in the title but is that enough to call him such in our pages?
  • "In August 1849 several burglaries and petty thefts had occurred in Lewisham, in what was then Kent, but now south London; a man wearing sailor's dress had been seen at the times the crimes were committed." Why "had occurred"? Isn't "occurred" sufficient?
  • Freemantle links to a Liverpool suburb. I think you want Fremantle.
  • "the colony of Australia" Australia was divided into five colonies by this point.
  • "the baby who is to-day Dowager Empress of Germany" perhaps mention that this was Princess Victoria, the queen's daughter.
Yeah, or a footnote.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Wehwalt - I'm much obliged for your thoughts here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:09, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support--Wehwalt (talk) 18:55, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Dmass

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I thoroughly enjoyed this article; it covers a lot of ground but clips along very entertainingly. A couple of tiny observations only.

In 'November and December 1840' should it be 'Neither the Queen nor her baby was woken by the event'?
In 'Royal Navy, 1842-1848', first para last sentence, was there a comma before 'it is probable', rather than a semi-colon? And should it be 'with which Jan Bondeson...'
In 'Legacy' was the film not animated, rather than illustrated (I'm not sure what an illustrated film would be...)? Dmass (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dmass; all good points, and all duly attended to. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:17, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from UC

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Very little even for me to nit-pick here.

  • Would suggest giving the source of the Victoria and Albert cartoon in the caption; we do for others and it's good practice to remind readers that the provenance of such a source is important; it's not simply a neutral recording of events.
  • Suggest being explicit that Tothill Fields Bridewell was a prison, and not some fields.
  • He tried to find a job, but his notoriety preceded him and he was unemployed: "he was unemployed" seems odd here (unemployed is not really a participle, though the phrasing calls for one): either he remained unemployed or simply he failed.
  • One of them, who was dressed like a midshipman: suggest adding Royal Navy or of the Royal Navy somewhere around here.
  • He went home, put on a clean shirt and left again at between 10:00 and 11:00 am and did not return home: I would change and left again to , went out again: at the moment, it almost reads as if he left work twice.
  • The Times considered that "suspicion strongly points to the same parties who rendered themselves so notoriously conspicuous in his former abduction; and though the father of the boy is in such reduced circumstances as to be unable to take legal measures, it is probable means may be found to fathom this mysterious matter", something with which Jan Bondeson, Jones's biographer, agrees: this reads slightly oddly to me. The "it is probable" is a future prediction; it's a bit weird for Bondeson, many years later, to still agree that it will happen. I suspect that Bondeson was simply concurring with the Times' assessment that Jones was probably kidnapped by the (apparent) RN officers?
  • possibly a servant of the captain: is that captain still Hay?
  • He was pursued and captured by a search party and his rum ration stopped for the remainder of his time on Warspite.: should be was stopped, I think, as it's a deliberate action: we can't really carry the was through when the subject has changed.
  • in what was then Kent, but now south London: not quite grammatical: either but is now... or (now south London). Would recommend a capital on South in this context, and possibly a wikilink: it's a distinct geographical/cultural region, not simply the vaguely southern bit of London.
  • He broke into the Plymouth home of Major-General George Morton Eden: MOS:PEOPLETITLES generally advises against giving ranks like this unless really significant; we might say "G.M.E, a Major-General in the British Army", or simply elect to turn a blind eye.
  • According to the journalist Henry Lucy, he received: did Lucy or Jones receive the letter?
  • the baby who is to-day Dowager Empress of Germany: worth an efn to explain that this is Princess Victoria?
  • A memorial plaque was erected by the East Gippsland Historical Society in 2005 in recognition of Jones: repeating the name reads oddly to me here: in his memory? Or is there a particular reason?
  • The Comic Almanack published a poem about Jones after he put to see with the Royal Navy.: put to sea, I think: colon rather than full stop at the end, as we're effectively leading the reader into that poem?
  • Link "knocker" in that poem?
  • Give the date of the Penny Dreadful in the caption?

A very good article overall and most of the points above are completely matters of taste. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks UndercoverClassicist - all sorted (I think). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Spot-check upon request. Something note related: I am not sure that we need to specify the exact 2021 equivalent in footnotes c and g; if we are trying to get the idea across that it was/wasn't a large sum, stating a rounded amount in prose might make it less likely to fall out of date. "That Boy Jones". BBC Genome. probably merits a date. Some books have OCLC and other ISBN numbers; why? The Times does not consistently have a byline. Otherwise, the sources seem to be consistently formatted. Reliability-wise, I wonder if Jan Bondeson's works are commonly cited and/or he's regarded an expert on Victoriana? Nothing that jumps out as bad in terms of sourcing, assuming that there are no questions about the newspapers cited - from what I know, British news media back then had a sordid reputation when it comes to factual accuracy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus - thanks for picking up on this. Breaking your points down to address them individually:
  • The figures in footnotes are in a template, so they will update automatically. They'll be up to date and allow the prose to flow without extraneous content.
  • Genome date: OK, added
  • OCLC / ISBN: I've followed what I think is normal practice here, which is to use ISBNs where available, and then use oclc where there is no ISBN
  • The Times never used to name their journalists (I'm not sure any of the major newspapers did back then), and the only time we've shown the journo is in a modern article.
  • He's been widely cited on this topic in press and at least one book, and more widely on other topics. His work also has multiple references and notes for sourcing of specific points, so I think he's OK
  • Most of the references are from The Times, which was the newspaper of record of the time (and still), so are fairly solid. None of the others are from the tabloid or penny press end of the market.
Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:12, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to me the notes show figures from 2021 and it's December 2023. That sounds like they don't do a very good job at keeping figures up-to-date. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Once the inflation rates for the year are updated, the figures are updated. There is always a gap of a couple of years for inflation calculations on this. - SchroCat (talk) 11:37, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz

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Placeholder. Should be finished tomorrow. JennyOz (talk) 14:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Schrocat, my comments, questions and suggestions follow...

lede

  • nine days after Queen Victoria had given birth to Princess Victoria - to her first child Princess Victoria?
    Not sure that is lede-worthy. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was arrested and questioned by the Privy Council - later questioned by (because Privy Council didn't arrest him)
    Went with subsequently - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Thames Police tried - not for article, just my edification, why did water police have jurisdiction?
    "jurisdiction" was an alien concept at the time, particularly when it is likely that there were political machinations in the background to get rid of him somehow. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • To relocate Jones outside Britain - to remove Jones from Britain
    Yes, OK. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • he worked for a month before disappearing and signing up to the Royal Navy—again at the instigation of the Thames Police - That doesn't quite make sense? ie how did the TP get to him to sign on to RN if he had disappeared? They must have found him in between "disappearing and signing up".
    It was highly likely the Thames Police were behind the "disappearing", but none of the sources are able to say that as there are no records of it. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • a ship's boy on HMS Warspite and had further duty on HMS Inconstant and HMS Harlequin. no need to repeat HMS? Per WP:NCS Using ship names in articles "The prefix need not be given if it is obvious from context (for example, in a list of ships of the Royal Navy there is no need to repeat "HMS")." We know it's RN so could be 'He was a ship's boy on HMS Warspite and had further duty on Inconstant and Harlequin'
    Ah - I didn't know of that particular guideline - thank you! - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • burgling houses in Lewisham, at the time in Kent, but now south London - remove "at the time" and "but", and cap S on south
    Done - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • and was again arrested for burglary - hadn't been for burglary before? - this time for burglary?
    It was for burglary in 1849 in Lewisham - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • again arrested for burglary, before he returned to Australia - spent 6 mths in prison before returning of own accord to Australia?
    Yep - could have been misconstrued it was transportation again, so done. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He has been used as the basis for fictional characters and, because of the connection to Queen Victoria, in several history books. - appears in/is mentioned in history books
    Yep - done - SchroCat (talk) 10:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Biography Early life

Break-ins, 1838–1841 December 1838

  • caption Buckingham Palace in 1837, with Marble Arch as the front gate - no connection ie no need to mention marble arch?
    I think it's probably useful, given it's a significant London landmark in its own right and people will be confused as to why it's shown on the front of another significant London landmark a fair distance from where it now sits. - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November and December 1840

March 1841

Later life, 1841–1893

  • His movements were monitored by police, who put him under surveillance - sorry but that reads: he was being watched because he was being watched?
    Deleted the last five words. - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • note f - "A guinea was a gold coin whose value was officially fixed at twenty-one shillings." - hmm, the guinea as a coin no longer existed (after 1816) but the term guinea was still used to describe 21 shillings. Reword? eg A guinea was a colloquial term for 21 shillings.
    I'm not sure it was colloquial: it was still accepted as legal tender until 1971 (when decimalisation was introduced) and some lawyers used to charge in guineas up until the early 1980s (anything to squeeze an extra 5% out of their unfortunate clients)! Horse auctions (certainly in the UK) still use guineas at the £1.05 rate for trading. - SchroCat (talk) 10:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In early January 1842 Evans began work for Mr Elgar, - Jones began not Evans
    Oops - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • suspicious men watching him, One of them - swap comma to full stop
    Done - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • put on a clean shirt and went out again again at between - remove again
    Removed again, so to speak. - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Navy, 1842–1848

Britain, 1848–1853

  • While still at Newgate Prison - while waiting for departure at?
    Yes, done - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • While still at Newgate Prison he was recognised as Jones. He was moved to the prison hulks, - why? less chance escape? or nastier holding place because he'd lied about his name? or was that normal step between a prison and deportation?
    I think it was as a holding point while they waiting for the ships to come in, but the source doesn't make it clear and I can't find anything that makes this clear. - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Australia, 1853–1893 or 1896

Coverage in the media

  • The poet Samuel Rogers had alluded to the Renaissance architect Inigo Jones when he nicknamed Jones "In-i-go Jones";
    Is the following part of the Samuel Rogers poem?
    One night, returnin home to bed,
    I walk'd through Pim-li-co,
    And, twigging of the Palass, sed,
    "I'm Jones and In-i-go."
    I saw it on Trove and on Gutenberg but Rogers not mentioned. It's in Ashton too but Gbooks isn't showing me page number nor the pages before and after. Is it the Rogers poem?
    I think it nicely helpfully explains the Inigo Jones allusion (esp that the architect is pronounced Inago and the poem is saying, in I go?
    Rogers didn't write the poem (as far as most of the searches I've made have shown), but he did come up with the nickname "In-i-go Jones" according to several sources. All we're supporting in the text is that he came up with the name. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Charles Hindley, the biographer of the printer James Catnach, observed that Jones was the subject of satirical pieces in the press, as well as several cartoons printed for street sale - Catnach has no relationship to Jones? Is there some other way to introduce Hindley? or was Hindley recalling some coverage in Catnach's chapbooks?
    Hindley was recalling Catnach's works, rather than us doing an OR claim of such. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • included works such as "Her Majesty's Chimney Sweep", "The Royal Sooter", "The Buckingham Palace Hero", "The Royal Flue Faker" - add 'and' before last example?
  • which also included cartoons of him. - cartoons of Jones
    Went with Jones at the start of the sentence instead. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • in 1842 George Cruikshank's - cap I on in
    Oops, done - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • after he put to see with the Royal Navy - typo, put to sea
    Oops, done - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • That image "A cheap news sheet published in 1871 about Boy Jones's exploits" - is 1871 the original date or is it part of a compilation published in 1871?
    Its original publication date. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

  • Factual coverage of Jones's life has been covered in - avoid 2 x cover? Perhaps "has been covered in" to 'appears in'
  • In 2002 a two-act play was staged that was written and directed by Sky Gilbert. - In 2002 a two-act play, written and directed by Sky Gilbert, was staged.
  • Robert Forrest-Webb also turned the story into a musical, - ambiguous? unless "also" is because other portrayals were musicals?
  • "The Boy That was Found in the Palace" v "The Boy that was found in the palace" - match caps?
    All these done - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Categories and template

  • He needs some cats re criminality. Take your pick:
    Category:Convicts transported to Australia (or Convicts transported to Western Australia)
    Category:People convicted of stalking - no, not an actual crime back then for which he was convicted but good to mention here in case someone thinks to add it?
    Category:British people convicted of burglary
    Category:19th-century English criminals
    and maybe Category:Queen Victoria and/or Victoria template per Edward Oxford?
    All added. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for yet another interesting piece of history, JennyOz (talk) 08:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi JennyOz , thanks again for another details and excellent review. I hope I've done it justice! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent tweaks and explanations! Thanks, nice working with you again and very pleased to s'port. JennyOz (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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