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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tommy Phillips/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:30, 12 January 2018 [1].

Tommy Phillips

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Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another one of my inaugural Hockey Hall of Fame inductees, and probably my last as its getting difficult to find enough material to create FA-quality articles (and length; this one is a little over 1600 words). It passed GA recently, and I found some more things to add to it and get it more comprehensive. Unfortunately there is hardly anything on Phillips after his retirement from hockey, except for his sudden death. Otherwise I think it should be alright. Kaiser matias (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • File:TomPhillipsIceHockey.jpg: when/where was this first published? Same with File:Rat_Portage_Thistles_1900.jpg, File:KenoraThistles1907January.jpg. Note that since these are on Commons, if they were first published in Canada we also need to account for their Canadian status, not just US.
  • File:KenoraThistles19051906.jpg: BackCheck link is dead, and if author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I updated the information regarding KenoraThistles19051906.jpg; the link to Library and Archives Canada states its copyright is expired. I sent emails to the physical owners of the Rat_Portage_Thistles_1900.jpg and KenoraThistles1907January.jpg images (TomPhillipsIceHockey.jpg is a derivative of the latter, so unless I'm mistaken it is under the same status?) I will continue to confirm when they were first published, though they were promotional images that would have been reproduced in newspapers across Canada; I just don't have access to a newspaper archive to prove this. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:03, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've since gotten an email response regarding Rat_Portage_Thistles_1900.jpg from the owner of the image (the Lake of the Museum), confirming that it is in the public domain. What would be the most appropriate way to edit the image to reflect this then? (Still waiting on the Hockey Hall of Fame, who owns the KenoraThistles1907January.jpg copy, to reply, though I suspect it will be similar). Kaiser matias (talk) 02:00, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly did they say? Did they specify where and why the image was PD? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately it was nothing more than a confirmation that the image is in the public domain. I sent a follow-up in hopes of more detail, though I'm not sure that will happen. Any update I'll note here, of course. Kaiser matias (talk) 08:37, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Follow-up email only noted that the image is roughly from 1901–1902, and nothing else more. Kaiser matias (talk) 10:14, 11 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I've been in contact with the LOTW Museum, and they have said that the two images in question are both in the public domain, and while they can't confirm an initial publication date, they have been reproduced enough that there is no longer any concerns about their status. So I'm wondering what would be the best way to note their license on Wikimedia in that regard? Kaiser matias (talk) 12:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What is the earliest publication we can find for each of these images, and would Canadian copyright have applied to all of them? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) As noted, it is going to be a challenge to find that, without combing through some local newspaper archive in northern Ontario (and I'm about as far away from there as possible). However I have the relevant information from the museum, and have updated the license to reflect that even if they may be copyrighted (which they are almost certainly not), the museum is the current owner of them and has their reference number provided, and allows them to be freely used and distributed. I hope this will satisfy any issues. Kaiser matias (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand it will be challenging to find the first publication - my question for the moment is, what is the earliest publication we do know of? Depending on when that was, it might be possible to sidestep the issue, if we can safely assume that first publication was Canadian. However, as newspaper photos, it's unlikely that the museums holding them are the copyright owners if copyright subsists. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The earliest I can reliably say without much trouble would be the Coleman book used as a reference in the article, The Trail of the Stanley Cup, which was published in 1964. That is obviously too late to confirm its public domain status, though there would be earlier publications, I just don't have the actual publication at the time. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, is there a copyright notice in that book, or any credit information for the image? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:29, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing more than credit to the Hockey Hall of Fame. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:35, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After some searching, I found some evidence that confirm the images to their era: regarding KenoraThistles1907January.jpg, an auction of a postcard with the image dated to January 1907 exists. There was a similar auction from the same group for Rat_Portage_Thistles_1900.jpg, though it fails to note an exact year, only stating it is from the era. This may be the most definitive proof available regarding the publication of the images in question, as there is not likely to be much else from then. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:48, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Looks like they're not postcards but actually original photos, based on the description? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) That could be possible, though I of course can't confirm that. Though would that make a difference, considering they still fall under the time frame for public domain?
And on a related note, I have finally gotten a reply from the Hockey Hall of Fame. They confirmed the images are in the public domain, but were unable to give a date for their first publication. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It would, because postcards are considered published while a photo by itself may or may not, and we want to know whether {{PD-URAA}} or {{PD-US-unpublished}} applies. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:44, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see. There is other images from the same auction site (see this for example) that confirm it was used as a postcard, but they don't have a date on the card itself. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:00, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria:, as noted below here, would it be possible to argue fair use for at least the main image? As noted, there is no objection from any of the major stakeholders of the image (the Hockey Hall of Fame, or the Lake of the Woods Museum), so is that an acceptable means for this? Kaiser matias (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
By main image, do you mean the one in the infobox? You'd be able to argue fair use if you can't find any image of him that is definitely free, using {{non-free biog-pic}}. However, if you can demonstrate a postcard publication from that era, it would probably now be free. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:45, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't the above-linked images show that they come from that era? That seems fairly definitive in that regard. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:28, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the information I've provided, I feel it shows that the images were published in 1907, and thus have had the licenses on them updated to reflect this fact. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:30, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
File:KenoraThistles1907January.jpg is fine as a 1907 postcard, and File:TomPhillipsIceHockey.jpg as derivative of same. For the other images, the situation is less clear - the site you've linked for the 1900 image is a photo not a postcard. Do you have links for those demonstrating publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I've been unable to find anything more solid for the 1900 image, as seen above. However as that is less important than the 1907 one (which is the image most associated with Phillips), I'll remove it. That should (finally) solve this. Kaiser matias (talk) 10:37, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All right, should now be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:03, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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  • Note 33: Harvard error
  • References: There appears to be no citation to "Hockey Hall of Fame"

Subject to these points, sources look in good order. Brianboulton (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed both of these. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:09, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose Comments by Finetooth

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Lead
  • ¶2 His younger brother, Russell, also played for the Thistles and was a member of the team when they won the Stanley Cup." – Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see any mention of Russell Phillips in the main text.
Added something.
Early life
  • ¶1 "...James took up a job in Western Ontario..." – I think you can safely delete "up" or change "took up" to the more formal "accepted".
Done
  • ¶2 "...championship of the Manitoba and Northwest Hockey Association..." – Should this be the Manitoba and Northwestern Hockey Association? If so, link Manitoba and Northwestern Hockey Association (MNWHA) and abbreviate here on first use in the main text.
  • ¶2 A further problem with the MNWHA here and in the "Career statistics" section is that the date (1903) in the MNWHA article and the dates (1899–1902) given in this article don't match. It might be a junior, intermediate, senior complication. Can you clarify?
That is the problem for the above note too. I initially thought they were the same league, but it was not unusual for league's to use either identical or nearly identical names at the time. As the article only notes the 1903–04 season (and unfortunately the link is deadd), I'm inclined to believe it is different, and thus don't want to link it. It would certainly be better to have a linked article for the respective league here, but that just isn't possible at the time.
But you have already linked it in the "Career statistics" section, where it creates the same confusion for readers who click through to read about the league. Suggestion: Delete the MNWHA link (which is not dead) from "Career statistics" but add a note explaining that early hockey leagues sometimes used overlapping names (or whatever is the case). You'll need to cite a reliable source or sources for this note, which will head off the possibility that without the note other editors will later add the misleading link to the MNWHA article. I think you could put the note between a pair of ref tags inserted after MNWHA the first time it appears in the article in the "Early life" section. Does that make sense? Finetooth (talk) 17:51, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ¶2 "By 1899–00 Phillips had joined the senior Thistles team, and would be named captain the following season, when they won the senior league championship." – The dates don't match here either. The MNWHA article (which may be incorrect) says the Thistles played for only one year, when it lost the championship to Ottawa in 1903.
Removed the link in the stats section, and added a note to the reference for the league within the text.
See above. As Phillips had already moved to Montreal by 1903, he definitely was not around for that championship series, which is corroborated by various sources.
Done
Kenora and Ottawa
  • ¶1 "Rat Portage changed its name from to Kenora in 1905." – Unclear. Does this mean the city or the team or both?
Clarified
  • ¶1 "one of the best players in Canada, compared to Frank McGee of the Senators" – I think this is the first time in the article that "Senators" appears. For clarity, explain here or above that it refers to the Ottawa team.
Done
Added some details and context to it, and reworded that whole section slightly. It should be clearer now.
Western Canada and later life
  • ¶1 "played with Edmonton" – Link the Edmonton team here on first use?
Done
  • ¶1 "met their team in Winnipeg" – Link to the city of Winnipeg article here?
Done
Career statistics
  • Since all the abbreviations but GP are linked to explanations, link GP to Games played as well?
Done
General
  • Concise alt text would be nice even though not required.
Added some alt text, though should probably be looked over as I'm not great at it.
Thanks. I fiddled with them a bit, mostly compressing to make them more concise, and I repaired the alt parameter (alt= rather than alt_image=) in the infobox. Please tweak further if you think any of my changes are unhelpful. Finetooth (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem with dead URLs.
  • No problem with disambiguation links.
  • No problem with overlinks.
Addressed everything here. Would appreciate a look at the alt text, it's not a strength of mine. Kaiser matias (talk) 12:12, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All looks fine except the MNWHA confusion, as noted above. Finetooth (talk) 18:25, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Think I have that addressed now in a decent manner. Kaiser matias (talk) 12:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. All looks good. Switching to support on prose. Finetooth (talk) 17:13, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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Interesting little article. I came up with a handful of minor nit-picks, which are as follows:

  • "and with the Kenora Thistles in January 1907, whom he captained." The last bit of the sentence relates to the team, not the year, so this should really be "Thistles, whom he captained, in January 1907."
  • Western Canada and later life: "and prior to the 1909 season played with Edmonton of the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association." Since he wouldn't have played with them before the season, try changing it to "joined Edmonton" or similar.
  • "played in the first game against the Montreal Wanderers, which Edmonton lost 7–3, but broke his ankle in the game and was forced to miss the second game". For tighter writing, try removing "in the game" after the ankle break. It's pretty obvious from the surrounding text that it happened in the first game.
    • Looking at this, I think the wrong "in the game" was removed. I was thinking that it should be "played in the first game against the Montreal Wanderers, which Edmonton lost 7–3, but broke his ankle and was forced to miss the second game". Giants2008 (Talk) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed that; also corrected the score, which seems to have been copied from the first game. Kaiser matias (talk) 08:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He played the 1909–10 with the local team". Should the first "the" be "in" instead"?
  • Minor point, but the bit from the lead about the first Hall of Fame class having nine inductees isn't repeated in the body from what I can tell.
  • Finally, some (attempted) words of wisdom: If you're having a lot of trouble with the image licensing, you're probably better off just removing them from the article, or possibly making a fair-use case for the lead photo. Images aren't required by the FA criteria, and to me it's more important to get a thumbs-up for the licensing than it is to fight hard for any particular image. If reviewers see issues in this department, they'll often just pass over an article regardless of its other merits. I don't want that to happen here, as I find the page to be worthy of more attention. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:32, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed everything here. As for the images, I'll note it above, and see what Nikkimaria says, as she has far more knowledge of that than I do. Thanks for the suggestion. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Provisional support – All of my concerns have been addressed. Once the photo issue is worked out, please consider this a full support. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

* Note to Coordinators I'm going to be on vacation until January 1, so if there are any comments left between now and then, that is why I'm not answering them. Thanks. Kaiser matias (talk) 10:54, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Usernameunique

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Lead

  • "whom he captained". Shouldn't that be "which he captained"?
Changed
  • "in 1903 ... in January 1907." Why give the month for one championship, but not for the other?
Usually it would just be the year. However in 1907 the Cup was won initially by Kenora, who lost it in a series held two months later. As such the two 1907 champions are always listed with the month they won as well.
  • I would add a sentence near the end about his retirement/lumber company/death.
Done

Early life

  • "James, who". How about "James Phillips," to avoid referring to him by his first name?
Done
  • "He had previously been married, with a son and two daughters." The second clause looks grammatically off. How about "He had a son and two daughters from a previous marriage."? If you want to avoid the "[name of person}/he/he" to lead off three successive sentences, you could change the next sentence so that it begins with "On April 30, 1877".
Done
  • "James accepted job". Missing "a".
Done
  • "was born in 1888;". Not sure the semicolon is necessary. For whatever it's worth I generally try to use only one per paragraph. Interestingly, every paragraph in the article either has two (5 paragraphs) or zero (7) semicolons.
Removed that one. I do have a habit of overusing them, it's true, so glad to be called out on it.
  • "As a young child Phillips ... Northwest Hockey Association." Perhaps break in two.
Split it up.
  • "for his endurance; in an era ... entire game: a posthumous newspaper". Sorry to make another point about punctuation, but also not a fan of having both a semicolon and a colon in one sentence.
Modified it to just one colon, should be better.
  • "play for an entire 60 at full speed". Consider adding "[minutes]" after "60".
Done
  • "Originally a forward when he joined the senior Thistles". "Originally" is redundant.
Removed
  • "for 1900–01". Should either be "in 1900–01," or "for [or during] the 1900–01 season".
Fixed
  • "Phillips also earned praise for his defensive efforts, in particular his ability to stop Tony Gingras." Three things: "ability" doesn't quite mesh with "efforts," Tony Gingras should be given some context ("to stop Tony Gingras, one of Winnipeg's leading scorers" or whatever), and (minor suggestion) "in particular" could be "particularly".
Reworded
  • "The Marlboros lost the series, though Phillips had the most assists and penalty minutes". "though" doesn't feel quite right when it's followed by both a plus (lots of assists) and a minus (most minutes as a forced spectator).
Added the qualifier "as well as," though if that can be improved further I'll do so.

Kenora and Ottawa

  • "two behind Billy McGimsie." Maybe "less than" instead of "behind". "behind" feels better when you use it two paragraphs later, since there you're saying "behind the leaders".
Done
  • "which allowed them to". Minor suggestion, but maybe "allowing them to".
Changed
  • "'nine of out ten people will reply that either Frank McGee or Tom Phillips is' the best player in the country." What's the full quotation from the source?
I can't get access to the Jenish book now, but a search for the quote turns up a 1906 Winnipeg Tribune article, which I believe is the source for Jenish: "Who Is the best hockey player In Canada? asks the Montreal Herald. Nine out of ten people will reply that either Frank McGee or Tom Phillips is."
  • "Phillips scored the first two goals, then added another three goals". You could delete the second "goals" if you want to.
  • "scored the first goal of the game, along with a further two goals". The hat trick is more significant than the first goal. How about "scored three goals [possibly linked to Hat-trick#Hockey], including the game's first..."
Changed
  • "Ottawa won the game 5–4 to retain the Cup." Did you already say somewhere that Ottawa had won the previous season as well? If not, "to take the Cup for the second year running." or something similar would be more appropriate.
I added a mention earlier, where it says the Thistles earned the right to play for it.
  • "which allowed them the right to challenge for the Cup again." The link feels random here, and would be better used for the same phrase in the preceding paragraph.
Moved
  • "The following season". This paragraph confuses me. You say they had to wait a year for the challenge, but it looks like you then start talking about the next season, without ever saying what happened with the previous, postponed, challenge. Was it played? Did Phillips play in it? Who won? I'd also clarify that "The following season" means the 1905–06 season.
Clarified it.
  • "Phillips led the league in both goals and points, with eighteen." Should be "eighteen of each." Looking at his stats, how did he manage to go his first eight (recorded) years without an assist?
Assists were either not awarded, or rarely done, in the early years of hockey. As such I removed the reference to points, as it's redundant. I expound on this down regarding the statistics table.
  • "However, there was an early spring that year". How about "There was an early spring that year, however, ..."?
Done
  • "In the 1907 season". The season didn't span two years?
Honestly I'm not sure, as at the time it could start as early as November or late as January; but for consistency I added the second year.
  • "A rematch two months". How about "A #-game rematch two months", to give some context for his stats.
Added that
  • "Ottawa sportsmen." Who do you mean?
I don't have Kitchen's book with me to confirm, but I suspect it would be financial backers of the sports teams. Either way it seems trivial here, so I removed it.
  • "He finished the season with twenty-six, two goals behind". This should be "with twenty-six goals, two behind".
Fixed

Western Canada and later life

  • "The Edmonton hockey team". How about "The Edmonton Hockey Club" so their full name is somewhere.
Added it to the preceding sentence, as its linked already.
  • "the rest came from the east". Feels weird to have something that could be a standalone sentence as a clause here. How about "with the rest coming from the east."?
Changed
  • "but broke his ankle". Any fallout from this? Is what he did while recovering known?
Alas no, player profiles were almost nonexistent from the era, and that this much is known is quite a bit even.
  • "retired at the end of the season". Could be "again retired", or "retired for a second time" or the like.
Fixed

Career statistics

  • Are the "—" stats just not known?
They are for the most part yes. Statistics in the early years are notoriously poor, and often times only included games played and goals scored. For whatever reason there is no consensus on using either a "0" or "–" in place of missing (or incomplete) stats, so the result is a patchwork, especially regarding things like assists and penalties. However the numbers given are copied from the Diamond book, which retains the most comprehensive stats of early-era players, in all its mangled mess, and as much as I'd like to make it all uniform, it would go against the source.


Overall

  • I really like this article. Most of what is above is minor and discretionary; there's only one sentence (about Tony Gingras) and one paragraph (about the early spring) that gave me trouble, but those are easily fixable. The other semi-significant thing is the lack of a line in the lead about his after-hockey years. Loved this line, by the way: "This required the approval of the other university clubs, which agreed on the condition that Phillips end his McGill career, which he did." --Usernameunique (talk) 12:44, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed everything above. I also agree that there is a serious lack about his post-playing career, but unfortunately there just wasn't an interest at the time in former hockey players, so no one bothered to write about his life after that; even articles from the time of his death simply say he worked in the lumber industry, which is a shame. If there's anything more to fix, just let me know, I'll get to it soon as possible. Kaiser matias (talk) 11:52, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kaiser matias, looks great, you've got my support. Made a few copy edits to the article (I'm responsible for the less/fewer mistake, oops), and one suggestion (regarding your comment above), which you're free to revert. I was wondering about the full quotation to see if there would be a way to have "the best player in the country" in quotes as well, but I see why you broke it up. --Usernameunique (talk) 20:03, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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