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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Turabay dynasty/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 16 June 2024 [1].

Turabay dynasty

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Nominator(s): Al Ameer (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the Turabay dynasty, a family of Bedouin emirs that governed northern Palestine in the 15th–16th centuries under the Ottoman Empire. Their territory, formalized first as the 'Iqta of Turabay' then as the Sanjak of Lajjun, spanned the area between Jenin and Haifa. The long reign of the Turabays was owed to the strength of their tribe, their largely consistent loyalty to the sultan, and their success in administering and securing their sanjak. Backed by their close allies, the Ridwan and Farrukh dynasties of Gaza and Nablus, they prevented Fakhr al-Din II, the powerful Druze emir who had reduced Ottoman rule in the Levant "to a mere shadow", from conquering Palestine. These three local dynasties treated Palestine as their own dominion and, ironically, with Fakhr al-Din out of the way, the Ottomans were freed up to gradually eliminate these dynasties' power. Turabay governance finally ended in 1677. Their descendants still live in northern Palestine and Israel. Al Ameer (talk) 21:34, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FM

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  • Sanjak is linked twice in the intro.
  • Add date in captions of images that lack it for context?
  • Link Mamluk.
  • I don't think the common term soldier needs to be linked.
  • "were in the coastal plain of Palestine" it seems a bit odd that Palestine is only mentioned and linked this far down, shouldn't it be already in the first paragraph of the article body?
  • "according to Sharon" You haven't presented any Sharon before this point.
  • Link Arabian horses?
  • Link Transjordan.
  • "to avoid a future a Ma'nid takeover" Second a seems redundant.
  • You use both Laurent d'Arvieux and Chevalier d'Arvieux, probably best to be consistent.
  • Do we know anything about the women of the family?
  • I see you added a map, but unfortunately it creates some WP:image sandwiching under Governorship of Ahmad. Are there other ways the images can be placed to prevent this?
  • The copyright info of the new map also needs to be the same as the original, as it is still the same authorship and public domain though it has been modified
  • "and the use of a band composed of tambourines, oboes, drums and trumpets" For what purpose?
  • Clarified that sentence in general—the innovations concerned their tribal way of life (not innovations to government) and the band is a military band. Let me know your thoughts on the revision. Al Ameer (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The building was the only grave of the Turabays to have survived into the 20th century and no longer exists today" Do we know what happened to it?
  • No. According to the source, the mausoleum no longer exists as far as he knows. For my part, I cannot find anything else about it. It was last documented in 1941 by an antiquities inspector with the surname "Husseini" and was in a deteriorating state at that time. Al Ameer (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The mausoleum image could be right aligned to precent it clashing with the section title beneath it.
  • "Sharon attributes the decline of the Turabays to the eastward migration of the Banu Haritha to the Jordan Valley and the Ajlun region in the late 17th century" How would this have affected them? It was their power base that moved away, or?
  • Clarified. The tribe was their base of power and with them migrating away from northern Palestine, the Turabays probably lost their means to keep order and enforce their rule and became useless to the Ottomans who were trying to centralize power away from local dynasties anyway. I should note here that so far it has been frustratingly difficult to find much information about the Haritha tribe in general. The plain south of Haifa, the 16th-17th-century stomping grounds of the tribe, was known as “Bilad al-Haritha” as late as the 19th century but even for this I cannot locate a source that explicitly associates the name with the tribe. I also have no information about why they left the region or what later became of them. Al Ameer (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The family remained in the area, with members living in Jenin at the close of the century and in Tulkarm." But the article body indicates they still exist?

@FunkMonk: Thank you for taking the time to review this candidacy. I believe I addressed the points you raised but let me know if there is anything else that needs improvement. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - looks good, I still see some image sandwiching under Governorship of Ahmad (perhaps move an image to the empty Governance section?), but that won't hold it back. FunkMonk (talk) 04:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka

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  • Are Bakhit (February 1972) and Rhode (1979) reliable sources?
  • Yes. I replaced Bakhit's 1972 thesis with the version published in 1982. He is one of the leading authorities of Ottoman history of the Levant and this work in particular is widely cited by scholars in the field. Rhode's work is well-cited in academia about the subject of his work—16th-century Ottoman Safed and its sanjak. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Introduce Deir al-Balah as a Palestinian town/city in footnote "a".
  • I think the geographical context should be determined because for the time being Palestine is first mentioned in connection with the Mamluk rule.
  • Their power was dealt a serious blow in a Mamluk campaign in 1253. Unclear: were they fought for or against the Mamluks?
  • ...tradition claims that their ancestors "migrated to Palestine during the Early Islamic period." Do we know from where they migrated to Palestine?
  • Rmv; this was added later and without a page number or way for me to verify, but more importantly the article already offers more elaboration on the family's origins. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is not "transl" template used when mentioning Mamlakat Safad. I would also mention that it was a Mamluk province to introduce the reference to the Mamluks in the next sentence.
  • Mamlakat Safad is a proper noun, so not sure it should be presented that way, but please correct me if I am wrong. Mamluk-era Palestine is mentioned as the context in the sentences preceding and following this mention. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why Turabay was executed and why allowed the Mamluks his son to succeede him?
  • Unfortunately, none of the secondary sources on hand provide any explanation. Abu-Husayn mentions that Bakhit elaborates about the possible reason in his Arabic-language article in Al-Abhath vol. 28, but I have zero access to it (and cannot read Arabic in any case!) Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Qaraja's son is Turabay or Turabay II?
  • I understant Qaraja was still alive when his son joined the Ottomans. This fact should be mentioned because Qaraja's execution in 1519 surprised me in the next paragraph.
  • Qaraja's activities are mentioned in the preceding and following sentences so this should be sufficient for a reader to conclude he was still alive. I will take another look to see if I can make this clearer. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would make it clearer and explain why the son joined the Ottomans instead of the father. Did he support the Ottomans on his father's order or against his father's will?
  • Revised, let me know if clear now. Qaraja supported the Ottomans and his son Turabay even joined the sultan's campaign against the Mamluks in Egypt. The sources do not elaborate on whether Qaraja ordered his son to go on campaign but it is probably implied. Al Ameer (talk) 03:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A link to the conquest of Mamluk Egypt?
  • Delink soldier.
  • Done!
  • Why Constantinople instead of Istanbul?
  • Introduce Via Maris.
  • Why is not "transl" template used when mentioning iqta?
  • A sentence about the iqta system?
  • ...three chiefs... Bedouin chiefs?
  • Turabay was already introduced as Qaraja's son.
  • A link to akce?
  • Some general remarks about the administration of Palestine under Ottomans? Perhaps: extensive taxation, employment of local chieftains in state administration, appointment of rival chiefs to offices, ( I am only guessing). Do we know why the Turabays were frequently conspiring against the Ottomans?
  • In Early relations with the Ottomans, I added further context about the Ottomans' main challeges in the Levant and how the Turabays played into this. In Assessment, I added about the power dynamics between the Ottoman imperial state and the local chiefs on whom they often relied for keeping order and, most importantly, collecting taxes. Still looking to add further info about why the Ottomans had to rely on such local leaders in the first place and the administration of Palestine, or the Levant more broadly, during early Ottoman rule. As for their run-ins with the authorities, the Turabays are actually noted for being mostly loyal to the Ottomans while preserving their autonomy and Bedouin spirit of independence to a great degree, as hopefully the article demonstrates. This was the key to their unusual longevity as practically hereditary governors of Lajjun. Their 'rebellions', unfortunately are rarely elaborated by the sources, but were usually short-lived and could simply mean they were stockpiling muskets or failing to meet tax obligations, both illicit activities that were often reason enough for the state to deem someone a rebel. They may also have been implicated in Bedouin raiding against Muslim pilgrim caravans, either by direct participation or failure to prevent, though this is only speculation by the secondary sources. Al Ameer (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pending. Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Iqta of Turabay became its own sanjak... Perhaps, "The Iqta of Turabay was transformed into a sanjak..."? Do we know why?
  • Do we know the relationship between Ali and Assaf?
  • Was Assaf exiled to Rhodes and pardoned in the same year?
  • Why is Sinan Pasha linked in the name of his son?
  • Ahmad's rule over Lajjun was soon followed with the appointment of the Druze chieftain Fakhr al-Din Ma'n to... I assume Ahmad's ascension was followed by Fakhr al-Din's appointment, because Ahmad will be mentioned in subsequent sentences.
  • Fakhr al-Din became governor of Safed in 1606 (he was already governor of Sidon from 1593) and Ahmad became governor of Lajjun after the death of his father in 1601. Al Ameer (talk) 02:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the wording is misleading: for me, "Ahmad's rule was followed" indicates that Ahmad was dead or dismissed by the time Fakhr al-Din was appointed governor.
  • Overall commander? Perhaps supreme?
  • ... he ignored summons... Who?
  • In the picture's caption: Ahmad Turabay sounds a little bit strange.
  • Explain the terms "kethuda" and "sekban" with one or two words.
  • Introduce Ali Janbulad.
  • A link to piaster? What is the exchange rate between piaster and akce?

An excellent article. Thank you for it. Borsoka (talk) 02:38, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments and suggestions Borsoka. I addressed most of the points you’ve raised but there are a few more I need to tackle. —Al Ameer (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you watch a preview for the article before publishing your edit you will find two messages at the beginning indicating errors in the "cite journal" and "cite book" tags.
  • File:Khan al-Lajjun.jpg: it needs a US PD tag, and the source link does not verify the picture.
  • File:Lajjun Sanjak in Ottoman Palestine.png: I would add a direct source to the picture.
  • Revised the map slightly based on Marom et al, a source cited in the article, as well as Hutteroth and Abdulfattah's work about the 16th-century Ottoman tax records concerning Palestine. Sources listed in the file summary. Al Ameer (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Palm trees at Jenin, possibly the site of ancient Jezreel. C Wellcome V0049488.jpg: PD tags are needed.
  • I added an alternative (more universal) PD tag.
  • File:Muhammad Turabay by d'Arvieux.png: the name "Muhammad Turabay" is strange in the caption.
  • File:Qubbat Amir Turabay Jenin 1941.png: it needs a US PD tag.
Al Ameer son ? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BorsokaGog the Mild Truly sorry for the slow-going here. Please see replies above. Al Ameer (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cplakidas - support

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Looks very interesting, will have a look. Constantine ✍ 17:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC) Not much to complain about, just a few nitpicks.[reply]

Lede
  • under the Mamluks for clarity for readers who may not immediately understand the reference, perhaps 'under the Egypt-based Mamluk Sultanate', or similar? Likewise, During the Ottoman conquest 'during the conquest of the region by the Ottoman Empire'?
Origins
  • Mamluk (1250–1518) periods the end date is incorrect here
Early relations with the Ottomans
  • Do we know why they defected to the Ottomans? Was this common occurrence or were they driven by rivalries or ambition?
  • Their motive is not spelled out by any of the sources that are available to me. However, I clarified that their contacts with the Ottoman sultan followed the Ottomans' victory against the Mamluks in Syria. We're left to presume they simply went with the tide to preserve their Mamluk-era position and priveleges, and the Ottomans clearly saw them as useful from that earliest stage. Al Ameer (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to Bakhit, he has not been introduced yet
  • The iqta was a Mamluk-era form of land tenure while technically correct in that it was also used by the Mamluks, the iqta pre-existed them, and was established by the Abbasids in the 9th/10th century; perhaps strike the 'Mamluk-era' part or replace it with 'common form of land tenure in the medieval Islamic world' or similar?
  • but Abu-Husayn suggests Abu-Husayn has not been introduced yet
  • akces -> akçes, an requires a {{transl|ota|}} template I think as it is not a common English word. BTW, the {{transl|tr|}} should likely be {{transl|ota|}} throughout.
Early governors of Lajjun
  • in connection to a Bedouin rebellion any more details here?
  • While checking on this, it turns out the whole episode of his dismissal, possible exile and return and his successor was a confused series of events, the confusion starting with the 16th-century imperial records and then with modern scholarship's reading of events. Revised to clarify. Al Ameer (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Governorship of Ahmad
  • of the janissaries corps either 'Janissary Corps' or 'corps of the janissaries'
  • held iltizam, timars, and ziamets as the latter two terms have not appeared in the main text so far, suggest linking them and adding a brief explanation

Will do the rest later today. Constantine ✍ 10:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Later chiefs and downfall
  • "courageous, wise and modest" does this quote come from said sources or is it Sharon's summary of these sources' portrayal?
Governance
  • akce per above
  • They levied customs recommend spelling out the Turabays again here
  • Maltese pirates I assume that this refers to the Knights of Malta? Then relink and/or adapt accordingly.
  • whose solidarity 'solidarity' is an odd word to use here; perhaps 'loyalty'? Or is this meant to represent asabiyya?
Way of life

That's it. The article is well-written and well-referenced, comprehensive and takes pains to introduce the context to the non-expert. Constantine ✍ 18:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cplakidas: Thank you for taking the time to review, and for your recommendations. I addressed most of the points raised and aim to finish by tomorrow evening. Al Ameer (talk) 02:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: I completed the final items, pending your review. Al Ameer (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support or oppose?[edit]
@Al Ameer son: one minor issue left, otherwise it looks fine. I have already supported. Fine work, as usual! Constantine ✍ 07:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image and source review

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Image placement is sound. I see no ALT text. If File:Qubbat Amir Turabay Jenin 1941.png was taken in Jenin which is in the West Bank, wouldn't a Palestinese copyright law apply? commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/State of Palestine implies that the copyright law applicable is unclear, though. Spot-check upon request. Sources seem reputable, although with distinct information available for each. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al Ameer son ? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus:@Gog the Mild: I missed the part regarding the missing ALT text, which I have now added to all of the images in the article. As for whether or not Palestinian copyright law applies, unfortunately I am not sure. I had been under the impression that Israeli copyright law still applied in the occupied territories. @FunkMonk: As usual with any of my image copyright queries, can you please offer some guidance on this point? Thank you ;) --Al Ameer (talk) 17:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems mandatory/British law would apply then, so it may only have to be switched to another tag. It also depends on where the photo was first published, though, not where it was taken. FunkMonk (talk) 17:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for providing this clarity FunkMonk. It would have been published in British Mandatory Palestine, as the image is in the possession of the Israel Antiquities Authority. Does this mean we continue to use the PD-Israel tag? Al Ameer (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From the guideline Jo-Jo linked (The Copyright Act 1911 (extension to Palestine)), I think we could assume so, as it's from 1941. FunkMonk (talk) 09:31, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check of this version per request:

  • 9 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    OK.
  • 10 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    I presume the details of prisoner treatment are in #12?
Yes. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 11 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Confused a bit about whether Qaraja was executed or not, or who exactly helped along with the conquest of Egypt.
I expanded the citation to more pages which, when all read, should sort the confusion. Qaraja was executed in 1519. His father Turabay was executed in 1480. Qaraja's son, also named Turabay, participated in the conquest of Egypt in 1517, while Qaraja helped mop up escaping Mamluks in Palestine on behalf of the Ottomans at that time. Later, when the sultan returned to Damascus in 1518 on his way to the imperial capital Constantinople, Qaraja met the sultan in person. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 19 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Yeah, will need a copy or new source here, as Google Books doesn't work.
I replaced Bakhit 1982 with Bakhit 1972 and emailed you the source. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 22 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    OK.
  • 23 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Yeah, will need a copy or new source here, as Google Books doesn't work.
See above. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That new source seems to be talking mostly about a different topic. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The citation (Bakhit, p. 14, n. 69) mainly supports the information in the footnote (note e.) at the end of that sentence. When I originally moved the supported information to the footnote, I must have forgotten to remove the citation from the end of the sentence. I hope this sorts any confusion, let me know otherwise. Al Ameer (talk) 19:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 28 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Where does it say that Jenin was the capital?
I fixed the page #. Sharon states Jenin was their administrative headquarters. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 31 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Where does it say of watchtowers? And of the ship taxes?
Fixed. Watchtower is in Bakhit, but clarified that it was one watchtower. Corrected the page number for the ship taxes. Al Ameer (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 34 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    I don't see "he went into hiding and his son"?
In footnote 5 on page 53, the source relates there was another version of events in which Assaf "had revolted and, mingling with the Bedouins, had disappeared. Thereupon, somebody claiming to be Assaf seized the sanjak and oppressed the peasants. The genuine Assaf's son [sic] is now to be sent from Rhodes to Lajjun ..." The source is stating that in this other version, it was Assaf's son who had been exiled to Rhodes as his father "disappeared", i.e. went into hiding. Al Ameer (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 38 Not sure what this supports.
  • Amended citation to include page 1024, which together with continuation on page 1025 provides the detail of Ali's (Ahmad's brother) role in the fighting against Fakhr al-Din's forces in Haifa, and the list of Ali's holdings. Al Ameer (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 41 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    "Fine horses", not "Arab horses"? Also not seeing "Shia Muslim rural chieftains who fled Safed Sanjak"
Removed "Arabian" (thought it was synonymous). Please see bottom of the cited page (194), which reads "Meanwhile, many Shiite shaykhs had fled the sanjak of Safad and took refuge with the Turabays since the return of Fakhr al-Din from Europe (Khalidi: 71). This must have provided further cause for conflict between the Druze emir and Ahmad Turabay." Al Ameer (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 43 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    A bit liberal source interpretation: It's not clear that the battle on the river, was Haifa actually captured was decisive and Ahmad didn't submit, but did he ignore the offer?
I removed 'decisively'; I believe this was from another source and once located, I may restore with that citation. As for 'ignore' instead of the source's "never submitted", we are on safe grounds there in my opinion, but I'm open to suggestions on different wording. Al Ameer (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 45 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Didn't get this one.
I emailed Ze'evi's book to you in the same email with the other sources. (Bakhit was sent in another email.) Al Ameer (talk) 19:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mm, doesn't seem like it arrived, then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just re-sent it in a separate email. Please confirm. Al Ameer (talk) 19:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Received, it fits. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 54 "Iltizam" does not appear on the pages given. Nor the names?
Revised this to remove Ahmad's brother Ali. His brothers Azzam (written Cazzam in the source, with the 'C', which is supposed to be taking the place of the Arabic glottal sound usually represented as 'ʿ'; amended the pages to include p. 1026, which is where the list of Zayn Bey's holdings begin. And, as you may have concluded, the source is using Hijri years. Al Ameer (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 62 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    Need this one still.
See above. Al Ameer (talk) 17:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 67 Where does it say that the Tarabih were descendants of the Turabay?
I replaced the cited source with one that explicitly states the Tarabih descended from the Turabays. Same author, new book. Al Ameer (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 68 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    OK, I guess, but some bits (namely, the protection) should be in the other sources.
  • 70 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    OK.
  • 75 Can I have a copy of these pages?
    OK.
  • 76 Is "Assaf built a mosque in Tirat Luza in 1579/80" in #75? Also, does "ibn" mean "son of"?
Yes. The quote from the citation #75, Sharon p. 27, note 87: ʿAssāf built in the village of Ṭīra (of the Carmel) a mosque on which he left an inscription bearing his name. See Z. E. Von Mülinen, "Beiträge Zur Kenntnis des Karmels," ZDPV, Vol. XXXI (1908), p. 62. Al Ameer (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Do you want me to email you screenshots of these pages or is there a special form to upload these here temporarily? Al Ameer (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Either by email or a temporary Google Docs link. I've seen both techniques being used. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:44, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I sent you an email; please confirm receipt and I will send over the requested pages. Thank you. Al Ameer (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo, just wanting to confirm that this has happened and you have received the pages. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I addressed your points above, hopefully to satisfaction. Please let me know if there is anything further. Thanks, Al Ameer (talk) 19:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jo-Jo Eumerus, any chance of a progress report on these two reviews? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the spotcheck passes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:31, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship

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As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification.

History
  • Does the first paragraph really need a separate level-3 subheading (MOS:OVERSECTION)?
  • "which stemmed from" it is not clear whether the "which" refers to the Banu Haritha or the Sinbis.
  • If "Jezreel Valley" is the WP:COMMONNAME of Marj Ibn Amir, I would include a gloss in-text.
  • "Turabay was executed by the Mamluk authorities in 1480" do we know why?
  • No. However, one of the sources cited here, Abu-Husayn, hints that another secondary source may offer more about this episode, but unfortunately that source is not accessible to me and it's in Arabic. It is Muhammad Adnan Bakhit's journal entry in Al-Abhath volume 28, Beirut: 1980, p. 56. The name of the article: al-Usra al-Harithiyya fi Marj Bani Amir 885–1088/The Harithite Family of Marj Bani Amir, 1480–1677. I might take a stab at getting this from our resource exchange but do not have high hopes. Al Ameer (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an invasation" ??
  • A map would be helpful for the description of the early years.
  • "the Turabays of northern Palestine" were there Turabays not in northern Palestine? If not, this is perhaps an indication that the geographical location needs to be more firmly fixed earlier in the section?
  • "and the security of the Hajj pilgrimage route between Damascus and Mecca" presumably not the security of the whole thing?
  • "including that the latter was supported by" the "that" compromises the rest of the list, so possibly "including the latter's support from"?
  • "With the suppression of Janbirdi's revolt" year?
  • "once again entered into a state of rebellion by acquiring firearms" did acquiring firearms automatically begin a rebellion, or did it just show disobedience towards the Porte?
  • Acquiring firearms alone was considered a rebellion against the state by Ottoman officialdom and was a recurring official reason for Ottoman expeditions against warrior communities like the Bedouins of the desert and the Druze of the mountains in the 16th and 17th centuries. The imported firearms, mostly from the Venetians, were often superior to those carried by Ottoman soldiers and their stockpiling was viewed as an intolerable threat by the state. I may add a footnote about this in the article for context. Al Ameer (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Governorship of Ahmad" subsection is very good.
  • "The fortunes of the family began to deteriorate under his leadership" how?
  • Frustratingly, neither the primary source d'Arvieux or the modern scholars have elaborated as to how—and afaik d'Arvieux is the sole source material from which modern scholars derive any info about Muhammad and his rule. Bakhit only reports the length of Muhammad's term. Abu-Husayn, who otherwise provides the most detailed account of the family's history, stops with the rule of Ahmad, writing "The story of the ultimate disintegration of their [the Turabays'] political power lies, chronologically, beyond the scope of the present study." Sharon also does not elaborate, but leaves the reader to speculate that Muhammad's drug addiction and aloofness was to blame for the deterioration under his leadership. Al Ameer (talk) 16:14, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Al Ameer son did you see the above? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

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  • "sanjak-beys (district governors) of Lajjun Sanjak". It seems odd to nominate an article about the government of a territory which does not have its own article. Maybe create a stub article on Lajjun Sanjak?
  • I suggest putting the map in the infobox to give context from the start.
  • "In the effort, he consolidated the family's alliance". "In the effort" sounds to me odd and superfluous. I would delete.
  • "Turabay was executed by the Mamluk authorities in 1480 and replaced with his son Qaraja." What was he executed for?
  • The sources used do not elaborate. There is a source that may offer some color but it's inaccessible to me and in Arabic: Bakhit, Muhammad Adnan, (1980). al-Usra al-Harithiyya fi Marj Bani Amir 885–1088/The Harithite Family of Marj Bani Amir, 1480–1677 in Al-Abhath, vol. 28: Beirut, p. 56.
  • "the revenues of which amounted to 516,855 akçes". Very few readers will have heard of an akçe. Is it possible to add an explanation or conversion?
  • "and the motivation for the rebellion unknown". Was there a rebellion? From what you say it seems unclear.
  • "The latter was a nephew of the actual Assaf, who lodged a complaint against Turabay in March 1592 for allegedly seizing from Assaf 150,000 coins, 300 camels and 2,500 calves." Presumably from what you say the complaint was unsuccessful, but you should clarify this.
  • "In 1594 he served as a placeholder for the sanjak-bey of Gaza, Ahmad Pasha ibn Ridwan". What does placeholder mean here?
  • "Reinforcements sent to Mustafa were defeated by the villagers of Nablus Sanjak. Mustafa and Fakhr al-Din opposed the refuge Ahmad offered to fleeing peasants from the Nablus area and Shia Muslim rural chieftains who fled Safed Sanjak." The first sentence says that Mustafa was defeated and the second implies that he won.
  • "resent Mustafa to Nablus". This is an unusual meaning of "resent". I think "sent back" would be better.
  • "Sharon notes that "the memory of the Turabays was completely erased with their fall"." This seems an extreme view as they remained a significant family in the area. Perhaps "in the view of Sharon"?
  • I agree this statement could have been better qualified or explained by Sharon, who was one of the first (if not the first) historians to author a study about the family and whose successors in this regard provided much more detail. The Turabays did indeed cease being a political power at this point. But as has been shown, they did not "completely" disappear; now powerless, the family continued on and maintained some residual prestige in the places they resided, i.e. Jenin for some time, Tulkarm, Sakhnin. I speculate, but by "memory" he may mean the "historical record" or the memory of broader society in later years. In any case, I revised per your suggestion. Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Turabay emirs oversaw nearly a century of relative peace and stability in northern Palestine." From when to when? They governed for nearly two centuries.
  • Good point. I can only assume that this was a typographical oversight on Sharon's part since there is no implication in his text that he is referring to a specific period during their rule. I revised the sentence to keep it in line with the source without being vague. Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, no. We do hear of an unnamed granddaughter of Ahmad Turabay marrying the son of his ally, the governor of a neighboring sanjak Muhammad Farrukh. I took this part of the existing footnote into the main text since it helps illustrate the families' clinching of their alliance. Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Al Ameer, could you finish responding to Dudley's comments and then ping them? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles: Sorry I had not noticed the additional comments until Gog the Mild's ping a few days ago. See replies above and revisions, and let me know your thoughts. Thanks, Al Ameer (talk) 18:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

edit

Hi Al Ameer son, this was a good read, some minor comments:

  • Consider including a lit/trans template in the infobox for amir al-darbayn?
  • Consider a consistent use of articles. For example, in some places you have "the Lajjun/Safad Sanjak" and in some places you don't have the "the" article.
  • What was the the reason for Turabay I's execution?
  • This question has been raised by most reviewers of this FAC. Unfortunately, none of the sources available provide any information about this, though there's a possibility an Arabic-language source inaccessible to me (Bakhit's 1980 al-Usra al-Harithiyya) provides some color, though even that would be speculation by the author. Al Ameer (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking to Abdulrahim Abu-Husayn?
  • Google Books shows Damascus as the location of publication for Bakhit 1982. Is thia correct, because Damascus is in Syria and the publisher is the Library of Lebanon? If the former, consider adding?
  • Consider providing links, ISBNs, OCLCs for Hourani 2010 and Rhode 1979? Also, is Hourani 2010 reliable, because generally self published sources aren't accepted at FA or even GA level?
  • Regarding the reliability of Hourani's work, the greater part of it is a repository of untranslated Ottoman tax documents concerning the Levant region and toward the end of the book an appendix of information about the various tax farming families derived from those documents, listing which tax farms were held by which individuals in a given Hijri year. It is self-published but it is cited in some leading works in the field, including Stefan Winter's The Shiites of Lebanon..., which is also cited in this article. That said, I limited its use to some supplementary details in this article and if necessary, I can remove it without affecting the article's integrity. Al Ameer (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's alright with me. A link for Rhode 1979 is still needed, any reviewer wishing to do a spot check will need it. Matarisvan (talk) 10:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matarisvan: I can no longer locate the online link for this work; however, I have the PDF saved and can upload it. Please advise. Al Ameer (talk) 18:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should upload the PDF to Academia.edu or Archive.org or some auch website and add the link here. Matarisvan (talk) 06:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider providing translated titles for both the research papers and journal titles, for Mülinen 1908 and Saleh 1980?
  • You note Sharon 1975 to have been published by Gefen and don't have a location of publication, Google Books says Magnes Press is the publisher and Eretz is the location of publication. Consider changing to whichever one is correct?
  • If we have the full names for the authors in the biblio instead of just their initials, consider using full names? I'm not sure what the MOS on this is though.
  • For some sources you do have the location of publication, for the rest you don't. Consider adding it for the ones which lack one?
  • Ze'evi 1996, Yazbak 1998 and Sato 1997 have ISBNs which have formats inconsistent with the other sources, that is they don't have the 978 prefix. Would the ISBNs not work if you add the prefix? I've known some works which used the old format and don't show up on this one. If not, consider adding the prefix?
  • Consider changing the left alignment of Fakhr al-Din's portrait and the sketch of Lajjun, to right alignment, per MOS:IMAGELOC?

That is all from me. Matarisvan (talk) 09:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Matarisvan: Thank you for your helpful suggestions. Please see responses above. Al Ameer (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Matarisvan, is there any more to come on this one? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:00, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, a link for Rhode 1979 is still required. @Al Ameer son did add the link for Hourani 2010 but not for Rhode. But once that's done, can support. Matarisvan (talk) 14:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild are the coordinators still waiting for more reviews for this one? If so I'm happy to review it, just not sure where we're at here. – Aza24 (talk) 18:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Aza, I think we're good, thank you. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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