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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/WSNS-TV/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 August 2023 [1].

WSNS-TV

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Nominator(s): Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 23:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When a new Chicago television station backed by local movie house operator Essaness Theatres hit the air in 1970 with little more than a rotating series of news headlines, this probably wasn't the history anyone expected. From being a third-string independent station that aired sports programming, the station became the key of one of the largest subscription TV systems in the United States in 1980. However, the station so totally devoted itself to subscription programming that it left itself very vulnerable to an FCC license challenge that bounced around for a decade and put the station on the brink of being handed to another company. After subscription TV withered away nationally, WSNS became the first full-time Spanish-language TV station in Chicago, first with the Spanish International Network/Univision and later with Telemundo, which acquired it in 1995. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 23:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vat

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Pulling up a header here. At a quick glance, it's in strong shape and I don't anticipate having many comments.

Extended content
Lead
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  • WSNS-TV and WMAQ-TV share studios at the NBC Tower on North Columbus Drive in the city's Streeterville neighborhood and transmitter facilities atop the Willis Tower in the Chicago Loop -- while this doesn't pass the 'separate sentence' comma-rule, it does pass the "I read this out loud and I really wanted to pause to take a breath before the 'and'" one. May be subjective.
    • Reworded.
  • The word choice of "indiscretions" caught my eye -- I'll read through the whole article in-depth before making a clear statement on that, but I'm leaving a note-to-self to come back here and check if this is a suboptimal phrasing.
Construction and "instant news"
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  • On September 27, 1962, Essaness Theatres, a chain of Chicago motion picture houses, filed under the name Essaness Television Associates for a construction permit to build a new UHF television station on channel 44 in Chicago, which it initially proposed to transmit from the Woods Theatre in the Loop and air programming "designed to serve the needs and interests of significant minority groups", particularly Chicago's Black community is a long sentence. Is there no place to split it?
    • Split
  • Is 'actualities' in other actualities a term of art?
    • Changed to "items"
  • Is two young women the ideal way to introduce Odell and Marshall, when you give Saunders a more active title? Does the show itself present them as 'serious' presenters or is their role more diminished (insofar as can be gathered from the sources)?
    • Changed to "newscasters"
  • Does the quotebox need the addition to specify that 'old' in 'good old' is sardonic, given it's a common saying that doesn't always have age implications?

More to come. Vaticidalprophet 07:02, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chicago's third independent
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  • 1972 was a key year in the history of the young television station as new general manager Ed Morris sought to revamp a station that was losing money -- is a comma indicated before 'as'?
  • Even more significant than the new programming was the acquisition of the television rights to Chicago White Sox baseball, which opted not to remain on WFLD (channel 32) after an unprofitable five-year relationship and moved their games to channel 44 in 1973, with Harry Caray as play-by-play announcer. Everything after "unprofitable five-year relationship" here feels like a pleonasm -- it's already clear from the earlier element of the sentence that they were moving stations around that time. There may be a desire to retain a mention of who the announcer was, but as it stands this is overwritten.
    • I have added a bit more and reworded. This was Caray's first major TV announcing work—he had previously done just radio for the White Sox—and his level of fame in Chicago makes it reasonable to put a mention of him here.
  • Is there a reason to specify that the Spanish-language programming was from independent producers?
    • Removed.
  • The format of having one cite inside a bracket and another immediately following it outside is aesthetically kind of unfortunate -- I think it's reasonable to place them both outside in the relevant chronological order, without losing clarity that they cite different elements of the sentence.
Pre-launch
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  • Recent changes to duplinking guidelines have allowed for the duplication of links when first mentioned in another section. With this in mind, it's probably worth linking more, such that the reader isn't required to keep track of every station acronym previously mentioned.
  • This is a bit more of a structural issue, and probably needs to be repeated across several articles. Is 'subscription television' roughly translatable to 'premium cable' as opposed to 'basic cable', which is the impression I get from its article, or does it refer to something that didn't survive into the basic cable era?
    • Think of it this way. You'd pay an installation fee and a flat monthly fee to get a set-top box like this one installed atop your TV. It'd then receive the scrambled signal from the TV station, which was broadcasting programming not unlike a premium channel (most of the programming was movies, but also sporting events, concerts, and even softcore porn—which was really really lucrative for STV!) for subscribers only. Originally, no station could broadcast this kind of service around-the-clock. WSNS eventually did—in a way that caused its license challenge woes. Cable killed STV because you could get a lot of channels for cheaper. But cable was often held up in legal red tape, especially in the biggest cities, in the early 80s. Subscription TV on WSNS outlived KBSC-TV, the beast of Oak's systems, because cable still had not come to the city of Chicago by 1985. The industry overall had a very fast rise, followed nearly immediately by a very steep fall. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspected the content was probably along those lines. Our "subscription TV" redirects to pay television, which mostly talks about HBO et al (that article might be worth working on -- it's important to a lot of these articles, gets decent views, and could get another GT with ON TV as a subtopic if there are more STV providers to write about). If it's possible, some kind of in-text explanation or maybe footnote is probably worth it across both this article and its peers, because it's difficult currently from the link to envision exactly what the business model was and how it differed from cable. Vaticidalprophet 23:15, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel like a call is being put out here for an article, something like Over-the-air subscription television in the United States... The article on Pay television sits at what arguably is a Vital level for WP:TV—its project importance is underscaled badly—and suffers from its positively huge scope geographically and thematically. These are projects in and of themselves. I've tried to improve the language, but there's only so much I can do without starting another big project. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 00:22, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspected something like that might be the case. I won't hold it up longer, but the section is kind of hard to follow without contextualization of over-the-air STV. Vaticidalprophet 18:16, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Vaticidalprophet 20:35, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rest of STV section
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  • Only thing that really stands out is the odd placement of the last quotebox, which falls between sections. It seems optimal to put it higher up.
    • It has been purposely placed to start the relevant paragraph, The loss of most of WSNS's non-STV programming motivated action... One paragraph up and it's a sandwich on my screen. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 06:59, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish-language broadcasting (1985–present)
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  • It might be worthwhile to contextualize how large Chicago's Hispanic population was at the time.
  • any of those softcore films notable (joking)
  • On October 13, 1988, WSNS-TV announced that it would switch its affiliation to Telemundo after that station's affiliation agreement with Univision concluded on December 31; two months later on December 16, WCIU—whose contract with Telemundo was set to expire the following month—signed an affiliation agreement with Univision, returning the station to that network after four years. It's probably worth splitting this at the semicolon, given the length of the sentence and number of clauses.
    • Done
  • It was stated that WSNS and Univision had been at a financial impasse regarding new affiliation terms -- by whom?
    • Univision, apparently. Tried to add a bit of the WSNS side of the story.
  • Why is the sentence about WSNS being expelled in parentheses?
    • Thought it was a sidelight.
  • The American Federation of Television and Radio Artists is a bit more recognizable by its acronym AFTRA, and it may be due to contextualize that this is half of what is now known as SAG-AFTRA.
    • Didn't use the acronym since they don't come up again, but in this case it may aid recognition of the group.

Comments above: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Programming and technical information
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  • Nothing stands out in either of these sections.

A strong article which I intend to support. re. brackets/parentheses in the quotebox, I think it's justifiable to switch them to parentheses. Vaticidalprophet 18:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Vaticidalprophet Done. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support here. Vaticidalprophet 16:37, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Media review — pass

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The images all appear to be appropriately licensed to me.--NØ 14:21, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

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Three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from voorts

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A few notes. Excellent work. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:09, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article is well-written and very engaging (1a), appears to be comprehensive (1b), well-researched (1c), neutral (1d), and stable (1e). The lead (2a) captures the history of the station well and the structure (2b) does a good job of periodizing the station's history. The article length (4) is good.
  • Earwig's tool picked up one bit of text that is directly in the ref: violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by failing to provide Schmidt "reasonable accommodation" for her alcoholism.
    • Rewritten.
  • As for the citations (2c):
    • Remove "Chicago, Illinois" as the location for the Chicago Tribune. Likewise remove Tribune Publishing as the publisher in the few cites where that's listed.
      • Done.
    • The quote in this sentence needs a citation: air programming "designed to serve the needs and interests of significant minority groups", particularly Chicago's Black community.
      • Removed the quote altogether.
  • Other notes:
    • Remove the parentheses: (Yale Roe, the general manager, felt that it was better to offer something different than compete with existing programming as a startup.)
      • Done.
    • The format failed to inspire much loyalty, and a motley crew of programs appeared on WSNS-TV's air. "motley crew" is a bit too informal.
      • Changed.
    • In 1972, Ed Morris became the general manager of WSNS-TV. He made several changes to revamp a station that was losing money. Why was the station losing money? The previous section makes it seem like the station was doing well with its quirky programming.
      • It seems to have had a lack of broad appeal, which I think is better to highlight than the money loss, especially in the early history of a station. Found two new refs in this area.
    • The quote box from Ed Morris in the "Operation" section establishes that the station was losing money before 1982, but that isn't discussed in the body of the article.
      • There is not a lot of information on the financial condition of the station. Would this be best replaced with an in-text mention that the station was showing a meager profit?
        • Yes, I think if something is highlighted in a quote box, it should be in-text as well.
    • In April 1990, a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. ... wikilink to United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit; remove wikilink to Washington, D.C. Also, the link in the ref for that sentence (ref 83) is now dead. I didn't check other cites but double-check that the links are still live.
      • Fixed.
@Voorts: Responded to all your changes. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:02, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sammi Brie: Responded to one of your questions RE the financial condition of the station and the pull quote; if you can address that, I will support. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

NØ

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Prose review.

  • Do we need "Chicago, Illinois, United States" in the opening sentence? I'd argue Chicago is a well-enough known city that just "Chicago" would suffice (without the wikilink)
    • I would, but I have gotten dinged for not putting "United States" in leads and infoboxes of articles before. I would not object to this change though.
  • "regional sports network NBC Sports Chicago" - "sports" is repeating in close proximity here so could this just be "regional network NBC Sports Chicago" with it being a sports network being implied by the name itself?
  • Is "ON TV" an abbreviation? Otherwise, it should probably just be written as "On TV".
    • It is not, but I have written about this topic a lot. ON TV's name was constantly rendered inconsistently even in the print media, but it was consistently capitalized. In fact, I had to have an RM on that article to determine how the name should be stylized.
  • "instant news" being in quotes in the subsection title looks a bit odd. Would it be okay if the quotes are removed? It's not obvious who is being quoted here.
  • "In November 1971, the "instant news" service ceased" - "instant news" appears as an unattributed quote here too and you might consider removing the quote. Also, is there some information on when this service started? Since the first mention of instant news in this section is about it being ceased.
    • The day the station went on the air. Term is from the first general manager. This should resolve the two above bullet points.
  • "The team went 24–58 in the 1975–76 season; sponsors, one apparently thinking the viewership was predominantly Black and had "limited sales potential", were reportedly hesitant to advertise;[31] and Olympic Broadcasting Service, which had packaged the rights, opted to exit the business and focus on its activities in the savings and loan industry." - Kind of a long sentence. It might benefit from being broken up if possible.
Overall, a fine article and it is quite a mystery why there haven't been many reviews. Perhaps, with Vat's permission, you could hat their review or move it to talk in case its size is deterring potential reviewers. I would also appreciate feedback on a current FAC if you have some time.--NØ 16:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@MaranoFan: Responded to or addressed all items above. One thing about my call sign-titled articles is that their titles are alien. Last year, I brought KCPQ to FAC and got one review. (I want to have that as an FA!) I discontinued using call signs in my DYK hooks because they were resulting in some of our least-viewed DYK features. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
MaranoFan: I habitually hat my long-prose-comments when they're done, but noticed I'd forgotten to do so in this case -- whoops! Have done so. (The FAC was slow even before, so I'm very happy to see it getting attention now -- it's a great read.) Vaticidalprophet 04:14, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies but I'm not convinced about the scare quote "instant news" and the three-comma "Chicago, Illinois, United States," in the opening sentence so I'll recuse from voting. These are both prominently placed so I am having trouble ignoring this.--NØ 01:40, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Per MOS:OVERLINK, I think it should just be Chicago (no wikilink).
    Additionally, "instant news" in the section heading isn't scare quotes; it's an attributed quote that's properly sourced later in the body: ... which general manager Yale Roe called "instant news" (citing refs 7 & 8). voorts (talk/contributions) 02:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've gone for Chicago alone, @MaranoFan, but don't be surprised if that gets switched back by another editor. (I would appreciate further feedback as to whether this change should be applied to similar large-city TV station articles.) As to the "instant news" issue, it is now an attributed quote with my changes. I'm hoping this is enough for you to reconsider. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 03:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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I will do a source review soon. I'm planning to check the formatting and will spot-check a few sources at random. However, I am busy at work so it may take me up to a week to do this.

Formatting issues (reference numbers are from this version):

  • Some web sources have no access-date, e.g. 1, 54, 75 (there might be more, I'm just listing examples).
  • You should be consistent in deciding whether to link a |work= or |publisher= in a footnote. For example, Chicago Tribune is not linked; Chicago Sun-Times is linked in each of the footnotes where it is used; Federal Communications Commission is linked in footnote 1 but not in footnote 124; etc.

– Epicgenius (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have fixed the formatting issues. Newspapers.com publication names are not linked by PressPass by default, and I don't use that anyway because it causes issues with other publications. (I do link manually for NewsBank sources where I have no link to content.) Also [54] was a pretty old citation from me. But all is resolved. A bit bummed it won't happen while I'm in Chicago, but excited. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Due to unforeseen circumstances at work this week, I won't be able to get around to the spot checks till Monday. Sorry about that. – Epicgenius (talk) 00:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks (ref numbers from this version):

  • 2 ("FCC OK's New TV Channel For Chicago: UHF Permit Is 2d in Two Weeks Here". Chicago Tribune. May 22, 1963. p. 2:13) - The source says Essaness was given permission "yesterday", which would be May 21. However, the article says "May 15".
    • History cards say May 15, and that's the FCC. Added a cite invoke to the cards on this sentence.
  • 17 (Petersen, Clarence (July 7, 1972). "A Whole New Look for Channel 44". Chicago Tribune. p. 2:15.) - Verified.
  • 18 (Logan, Bob (October 6, 1972). "WMAQ Will Broadcast Sox Games Next Season". Chicago Tribune. p. 3:1, 7.) - Verified.
  • 19 (Vanderberg, Bob (February 27, 1998). "Sox lure a standout to broadcast booth, bleachers". Chicago Tribune. p. 9:5.) - Verifies the second part of the sentence.
  • 38 (O'Shea, James (June 20, 1979). "Channel 44 owner to sell half-interest". Chicago Tribune. p. 4:3.) - Verified.
  • 42 (Potts, Mark (March 8, 1980). "Owners plan to sell 49% of Channel 44". Chicago Tribune. p. 2:7.) - Verified.
  • 43 ("Oak, Video 44 deal". Chicago Tribune. March 20, 1980. p. 4:7.) - Verified.
  • 73 ("In Brief" (PDF). Broadcasting. February 25, 1985. p. 97. ProQuest 963289220.) - The source verifies most of the info. The "minimal" quote is verified by source 51 (Saville Hodge, Sally (February 23, 1985). "Owners of Channel 44 in danger of losing license". Chicago Tribune. p. 2:7.), but I don't even think that word needs to be in quotes.
    • Tweaked.
  • 99 (Feder, Robert (November 11, 2016). "NBC 5 boss David Doebler adds Telemundo station". RobertFeder.com.) - The source doesn't seem to support the second half of the sentence ("making Chicago the third market where NBC and Telemundo stations reported to the same general manager"). The first part of the sentence is verified.
    • Removed the "third market" item I cannot find.
  • 108 (Villafañe, Veronica (November 14, 2012). "Félix leaves Telemundo Chicago". Media Moves) - Verified.
  • 117 (Villafañe, Veronica (January 9, 2018). "Telemundo network & local stations to launch livestreamed noon newscast; announce anchors". Media Moves.) - Verified.
  • 120 ("Telemundo Chicago Launches Investigative Unit". Chicagoland Radio and Media. June 29, 2015) - Verified. This source should be marked as unfit. In the text, you should replace "currently" with an "as of" template.
    • Sure seems like Mendiola left, too. (Searches show her as a teacher) Tweaked. All four CR&M citations have been changed to unfit URL status.
  • 125 ("NBC Makes Over $480 Million From Auction". TVNewsCheck. April 13, 2017.) - I don't see Doebler's name in the source itself (neither in the byline or in the text), but the rest of this sentence is verified.
    • Removed Doebler mention.

@Sammi Brie, I did spot-checks on 13 of the sources and found minor issues with three of them. I will do another spot-check later just to be on the safe side. Epicgenius (talk) 19:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Picking six more sources randomly from this version:

  • 5 ("'Big John' Antenna Towers a $1,300,000 Spectacular". Chicago Tribune. November 16, 1969. p. 5B:14.) - Verified.
  • 27 (Isaacs, Stan (April 4, 1982). "More to New Voices Than Meets the Ear". Newsday. Melville, New York. p. Baseball 10.) - Verified.
  • 63 (Kay, Linda (November 22, 1983). "SportsVision merges with ON TV Jan. 1". Chicago Tribune. p. 3.) - Both uses verified.
  • 91 (Feder, Robert (September 25, 1991). "Trade group drops Ch. 44 by 'mistake'".) - Cannot access but will assume good faith.
  • 100 (Feder, Robert (April 20, 2021). "NBC Sports Chicago boss Kevin Cross to head NBC 5, Telemundo Chicago". Daily Herald. Daily Herald Media Group.) - Verified.
  • 113 ("WSNS-TV Adds News Anchor & 30-Minute Newscast". Chicagoland Radio and Media. September 18, 2014.) - Verified.

Since a further spot check didn't find any other issues, I will pass this source review. Epicgenius (talk) 23:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

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I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

Lede
  • WSNS-TV (channel 44) - I get that this might be standard practice, but there's lots of things that are on channel 44 across the world. Perhaps we can put this into prose somewhere? Perhaps WSNS-TV (channel 44) is a television station in Chicago, serving as the local outlet for the Spanish-language network Telemundo, broadcast on channel 44. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is one place where I will disagree because, well, channels get funky to describe (especially when a station is "broadcast on" a physical and a virtual channel number). You probably are aware that after your GAN of KMEX-DT, we had a lot of changes to the way in which lead sentences are worded.
  • carrying local sports, movies, and other specialty programming - do you mean local movies, or movies and local sports? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reordered to avoid ambiguity
  • WSNS became the Chicago-area station for the over-the-air subscription television (STV) service ON TV, - this reads a bit weird to me. Maybe reword to state ON TV earlier. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indiscretions from the station's STV era led to a license challenge in which the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) ruled at one point that a challenger should be awarded the channel over Video 44, the station's ownership consortium; a groundswell of support helped the station to survive and led to an $18 million settlement that kept it in business. - this is a hell of a sentence, maybe split it up for readability. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Split at the existing semicolon.
Prose
  • Different people have different ways of enjoying themselves. Some break out the whips. Some stick bamboo splints under their fingernails. Some eat frozen pizza. And others watch good old (year-old) WSNS—channel 44, Chicago. - I don't really get how this quote helps us, or really explains anything about the programming. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Opted to pull this quote as it also removes a bit of "too many quotes" from that area.
  • Seeing STV double: SportsVision - I don't get this title - is it supposed to be superfluous? Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Two-channel STV service, thus the "double". This was unique to the point where special two-channel decoders were made. (There is no freely available image, but you can see one in [3])
  • The quote starting Summarized briefly... should be moved up to the top of this header, as it currently spans two headers on any monitor size. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done.
  • Considering the league talks about "local sports", the sports part of the programming is a single sentence. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Having even one sentence on local sports in the Telemundo era is more than I would normally have for a Spanish-language station. Local TV sports rights are less of a thing overall for broadcast stations today and even moreso for Spanish-language stations. There was some info there on WMAQ and WSNS airing the Chicago Marathon, but it was sourced to not the greatest sources (mostly press releases announcing they had or had extended the rights). All comments to here: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 16:26, 11 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure, but we even have a section dedicated to how they ran an STV dedicated to sports. The lede says "movies, local sports, and other specialty programming", but we only mention one sport, and then not even competitive matches. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Lee, I have squeezed all I can out of that section. And I mean all I can. It's amazing a Spanish-language station has this much for me to work with. Also changed the SportsVision section header. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 10 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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