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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Feiner/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 6 January 2021 [1].

William Feiner

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Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 02:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a short, little (but comprehensive) article about the life of a quaint but interesting man. Ergo Sum 02:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Armadillopteryx

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  • For this reason, he was sometimes erroneously identified as being Polish, rather than German.
→ Delete the comma after "Polish".
Done. Ergo Sum 20:17, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was sent to the United States in 1822, in order to assist ...
→ Delete the comma after "1822".
While I personally agree with your syntactic analysis, MOS:YEAR says there has to be a comma after a year. Ergo Sum 20:17, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:YEAR indicates that a comma should follow the year in a full MDY date, as the year serves the grammatical function of a parenthetical or interrupter. This is not the case when a year is mentioned by itself; unless I have missed something, MOS:YEAR does not treat the case of a year mentioned in isolation. Armadillopteryx 22:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're quite right. I've removed the comma. Ergo Sum 00:11, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • After his move, he anglicized his name as William Feiner.
→ Since this is not a general statement about the English equivalent of his name (rather, it's about the act of him changing his name), I believe this should read "he anglicized his name to William Feiner".
That strikes my ear as a bit unusual; I've never heard of the verb "anglicize" taking a direct object. I don't really see an issue with "anglicize as" but I might alternatively propose "anglicized his name to become..." Ergo Sum 20:19, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's fine to leave it as "anglicized as". Armadillopteryx 22:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was likely due to his fluency in the German language and the large German-speaking population in Conewago.
→ This is fine as is, but perhaps the causal link would be clearer with wording like: This was likely due to his fluency in the German language and the fact that there was a large German-speaking population in Conewago.
I've clarified the sentence. Ergo Sum 20:20, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; I like the solution you chose. Armadillopteryx 22:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In addition to his pastoral work, Feiner also taught theology in Conewago in 1824.
→ "In addition to" and "also" are redundant; I recommend choosing one or the other.
Removed the latter. Ergo Sum 20:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peter Kenney, the Jesuit visitor to the United States, returned to Europe, and appointed Feiner to the position in his stead
→ Delete the comma after "Europe".
Done. Ergo Sum 20:21, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was made the prefect of studies at Georgetown College from 1825 to 1826, as well as a professor of theology and German.
→ There shouldn't be a comma before "as well as", but I see that the sentence feels cluttered without it; maybe try something like: He was made the prefect of studies at Georgetown College from 1825 to 1826, when he also served as a professor of theology and German.
De-cluttered. Ergo Sum 20:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • James A. Neill took over as prefect of studies at the end of his term.
→ Since the previous sentence already identifies the position as "prefect of studies", the term could be shortened to simply "prefect" here.
Done. Ergo Sum 20:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1825, he became the second official librarian ...
→ Unless this is meant to refer to the subject of the previous sentence (Neill), Feiner's name should be restated in place of "he".
Done. Ergo Sum 20:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1825, he became the second official librarian of the Georgetown University Library, after Thomas C. Levins, who had filled the position since 1824, was dismissed ...
→ I think this would read more clearly if reworded to something like: In 1825, he became the second official librarian of the Georgetown University Library when Thomas C. Levins, who had filled the position since 1824, was dismissed ...
Done. Ergo Sum 20:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When the president of Georgetown College, Stephen Larigaudelle Dubuisson, was permitted to resign the office, he eagerly set sail for Europe, and Feiner was appointed president May 4, 1826, by the Jesuit provincial superior, Francis Dzierozynski.
→ I would break this into two sentences (ending the first after "set sail for Europe", deleting "and", and beginning the next sentence with "Feiner was appointed").
Done. Ergo Sum 20:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
→ Insert "on" before "May 4, 1826".
Done. Ergo Sum 20:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
→ Question: Is there only one Jesuit provincial superior at a time (i.e. was Dzierozynski the only one at the time described)?
Yes, just one at a time in each province. Ergo Sum 20:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • ... declaring that he was neither competent to hold the office nor desired it.
→ This neither/nor construction should have the same part of speech as the headword of each phrase; perhaps restructure as something like: ... declaring that he was not competent to hold the office and did not desire it.
An alternative is "nor desirous of it." Do you think that would sound a bit too wordy? Ergo Sum 20:31, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this suggestion is fine; it only adds a single word. Armadillopteryx 22:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Ergo Sum 00:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While president, Feiner was also a professor of moral theology in 1828 and of dogmatic theology as well in 1829.
→ "As well" is unneeded.
Fixed. Ergo Sum 20:31, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overall, his administration of the college was deemed lackluster.
→ Since the previous sentence mentions both Feiner and Beschter, replace "his" with "Feiner's" for clarity.
Done. Ergo Sum 20:31, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Armadillopteryx 05:23, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Armadillopteryx. Ergo Sum 20:32, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do you anticipate noting any more comments, Armadillopteryx? Ergo Sum 17:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ergo Sum: I read through the article again. A couple things:
  • I notice that Feiner's birth name does not appear to be sourced at all anymore; the Buckley ref at the end of the the first sentence in Personal life does not refer to him as "Wilhelm".
  • The citation that was supporting Wilhelm is now at the end of first sentence of the first paragraph of American missionary. It supports the statement about him anglicizing his name. In response to Ceoil's comment below, I figured it made more sense to put it there than to have it right next to his name at the start of a sentence. Ergo Sum 05:51, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see where the motivation for that change came from, but strictly speaking, one would expect the fact to be sourced by the first citation that follows it; that is no longer the case where the name is first mentioned. Why not leave the citation in both places, as it sources both the name and its change (which happen to be here mentioned separately)? Armadillopteryx 03:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was made the prefect of studies at Georgetown College in the District of Columbia from 1825 to 1826, where he also served as a professor of theology and German.
→ Since the comma is immediately preceded by a date range rather than a place, the following word should technically be "when", not "where". Perhaps the sentence could be restructured? Here's one example, though I'm sure you can come up with something better: From 1825 to 1826, he was the prefect of studies at Georgetown College, where he also served as a professor of theology and German.
Rephrased the sentence so that it should be grammatically correct now. Ergo Sum 05:53, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the last section, there are two sentences in a row that begin with "While president" (the last sentence of the first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph). I recommend rephrasing one (or perhaps they can be combined). Either way, I think the paragraph break should go after the latter sentence, not before it. That way, the whole first paragraph is about Feiner's work at the university, while the second is about his failing health, resignation and death.
Armadillopteryx 21:58, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Moved the paragraph split and removed the redundant phrasing. Ergo Sum 05:56, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Other than my one additional comment above, I'm satisfied with this nomination. Armadillopteryx 03:12, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Armadillopteryx Would you like to register an oppose or support vote if you're all done with your review? Ergo Sum 14:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes—I support promoting this candidate to FA. Armadillopteryx 19:58, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comment by Nick-D

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I was a bit surprised to see the statement that this person taught in "Jesuit schools in the Holy Roman Empire". The HRE was formally abolished in 1806, and had been near defunct for a long time before that, and it looks like Feiner didn't start his teaching career until 1808. Nick-D (talk) 09:39, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for catching this. I've gone back and looked at the source. It turns out that I misunderstood the term "empire" as referring to the Holy Roman Empire, when it in fact referred to the Russian Empire. I've corrected the error. Ergo Sum 20:47, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Hog Farm

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Will take a look at this. Not sure what the shortest FA is, but I think I've seen a 800 word statistic thrown around somewhere, and this is at 600-some. Hog Farm Bacon 17:58, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The shortest I'm aware of is 712 words (How Brown Saw the Baseball Game). Armadillopteryx 18:27, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There may have been a slight change in the word count after the above edits. Still, it's a short article. I hope this doesn't prove problematic for FAC purposes, since it's as comprehensive as I can get it, given the extant records. Ergo Sum 20:48, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of the opinion that if an article is truly comprehensive and notable, it can be an FA. From a quick glance, I don't think the length is a problem here. Hog Farm Bacon 23:45, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure how specific your source is, but is Galicia (Eastern Europe) or Austrian Galicia the better link? The latter is slightly more specific for the exact time frame than the other.
    • The source doesn't make this clear. However, because he was working in the Russian Empire, I think it would be more likely he would be also working in the Galicia in present-day Ukraine (which was part of the empire) than in present-day Austria. Ergo Sum 17:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He then emigrated to the United States following the restoration of the Society" - At least to me, this sounds almost like it happened rather quickly after the restoration, rather than the 8 years it actually was.
  • "He was sent to the United States in 1822 in order to assist the American Jesuits re-establish their work following the worldwide restoration of the Society of Jesus in 1814" - Is there a specific known reason as to why he was chosen
  • " In addition to his pastoral work, Feiner taught theology in Conewago in 1824" - Do we know of a specific institution this was associated with, or was it just kinda freelance?
    • It was almost certainly at Conewago Chapel, since that is the only Catholic institution I can find that existed in Conewago at that time. However, this is not explicitly stated by the source. Ergo Sum 17:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by this time, Feiner was already in very poor health" - If it's known that he had TB at this point, it's probably worth mentioning.
  • "He was made the prefect of studies at Georgetown College from 1825 to 1826" - Maybe introduce that Georgetown is in DC?
  • I'm unsure about the section title for Georgetown College. It's meant to be focused on his presidency, but the heading is vague enough that topically the last paragraph of the preceeding section would belong there. Maybe make the section title a little more specific
  • "Given Feiner's failing health, John W. Beschter left for the college in anticipation of having to succeed Feiner as president" - Can we get a brief gloss of who Beschter was?
    • I'm generally a bit hesitant to describe predecessors and successors for positions beyond linking to their article, since Beschter didn't really have a whole lot to do with Feiner beyond succeeding him. I tend to think the casual reader would probably be fine with just the link. Ergo Sum 17:50, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Overall, Feiner's administration of the college was deemed lackluster" - By whom?
  • There's some MOS:SANDWICH issues appearing when I view this on my laptop. Do they appear on your device as well?

That's it from me, I think. Good work, a short but worthy candidate. Hog Farm Bacon 05:57, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Hog Farm. Ergo Sum 17:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
After looking into things, I think there's maybe a bit that can be said about his legacy. Curren has his brief statement. I tracked down Shea 1891, which says he was never able to give the institution the life and impulse which it acquires from an active and far-seeing president, the source later goes on to say that Feiner didn't influence the students much. I've got another comment above about another detail that can be wrung from Buckely. Can only get snippet view of this, but the preview suggests it has relevant additional information. I do feel like there is some small bits that can be attributed to sources about his legacy. Hog Farm Bacon 03:54, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned below in the discussion with Ceoil, I've been somewhat on the fence about including the legacy evaluation. Because you pointed out that Shea also makes a statement about it, I've re-added a sentence about the two historians' evaluation of his administration, with a brief word of context.
Regarding the Daley source, I can't access that. However, from the looks of the snippets, I don't see it alluding to anything not already mentioned by the other sources. Also, given its date, I imagine it would rely substantially on the Shea source (which the later sources seem to do), rather than introduce something new that wasn't brought up by one of the others. Ergo Sum 06:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm ready to support on this one. Hog Farm Bacon 21:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil

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  • Why is the basic fact Wilhelm Feiner[2] was born referenced.
    • That was just to reference the fact that his birth name was Wilhelm. In hindsight, I don't think that's necessary, and I've moved the reference to a more suitable spot. Ergo Sum 17:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have an issue with short articles.
  • Reading through Ceoil (talk) 02:19, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't like that the assessment of his tenure is descrbed as "overall...lackluster" and cited to an unnamed, undated (in the article text) single "historian". Not being told more, I'm left to believe there is more than likely than not an axe to grind behind that description. Ceoil (talk) 18:36, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, that's a pretty big step down on your written summary of the man's career, and doesn't give much confidence as to the articles overall integrity. Maybe a further audit of other primary sources is needed. I think I'm an oppose for now. My feeling is that the sources are so thin and sparse, you are padding out with whatever you can find. Ceoil (talk) 20:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. I'm just saying that one historian's evaluation of his performance as president, which was really just a passing mention when one goes and looks at the source, doesn't really add much to the article. In what way does that impair the other sources, much less the rest of the article? Quite frankly, I think that's altogether an unreasonable conclusion; in all my time at FAC, I've never seen that kind of logical leap done before. Ergo Sum 20:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Its a pretty fundamental error. "effective" vs "not effective. Who cares? Its only the internet. Which begs the question, if you have no opinion on the man, and don't care if his wiki page is given a positive or negative spin, why are were here, reviewing a 651 word summary whose accuracy you seem to care less about? Ceoil (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on 1.c - well researched. Ceoil (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, Ceoil; I really just am not following you at all. I disagree thoroughly with your assessment, since I have yet to see your explanation of where exactly it lacks research. If you can identify anything notable about his life that is not contained in the article, I invite you to bring it to my attention. Though I disagree, I nonetheless thank you for the review. Ergo Sum 21:29, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think I have been pretty clear above, but to spell it it out again, if the main author at FAC of a bio can switch from the man was an ineffective college president, to "oh, you know what, that source was dodgy, maybe he was ok after all", during an FAC, without blinking an eye, and then argue that they had not actually done that, or whatever your point now is, then I have to question the integrity of the use of sources overall. Especially as the page is only 650 odd words long, and it does seem you are scraping to get the article as long as possible, by uncritically shoveling in everything in you can find. Ceoil (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It may help if we take a step back and start at the drawing board on this point. Just to be clear, I shovel nothing; I wrote this article in good faith and I'm certainly not making any claims about whether he was or was not a good president. I'm only concerned with whether that fact in the source is important enough to warrant inclusion.
I initially added it because I thought it was an interesting tidbit and later removed it because I didn't think it was all that important, given that the author only made the evaluation of his presidency in passing and it wasn't about Feiner exclusively. To be precise, the 1993 Curran source states on p. 101: Admittedly, the foreign presidents of Georgetown in that decade–Kohlmann, Dubuisson, Feiner, Beschter–left a rather sorry administrative record.
If you would like to discuss whether that line is important enough to warrant inclusion, I'm perfectly happy to do that. I tend to think it's not all that important, but I'm open to including it if some context if given, such as stating that the presidencies of that decade were not that successful, his included. Ergo Sum 22:22, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are now rolling back from how the article was first presented - as an authoritative bio of the man. But now, in fact their there are clarifiers. There is not much that I want to add at this stage that have not said three times already. If my concerns are over-written by later reviewers, fine. No longer care. Ceoil (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sriking, prefer, and think its fairer to do an audit of comprehensiveness myself. A day or two. Ceoil (talk) 01:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to bring to your attention the discussion above with Hog Farm re his legacy. Ergo Sum 06:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • When the president of Georgetown College, Stephen Larigaudelle Dubuisson, was permitted to resign the office, he eagerly set sail for Europe.[20] - "was permitted", "eagerly", "set sail"...You may be using the language of very old sources. Ceoil (talk) 02:57, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • It may be more accurate that my own diction is old fashioned. "Was permitted" is accurate because he wasn't allowed to just quit; he needed the approval of some superior. I've changed "set sail" to "sailed." I thought "eagerly" was just a concise way to put it. I wanted to get across that he was anxious to resign and get to Europe. Ergo Sum 05:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Other than this last point am leaning support on prose; still need to revisit on comprehensiveness. I accept Ergo's explanation above re "overall...lackluster"; and note that the article is sourced to 16 high quality sources. Ceoil (talk) 13:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Two of the three still repeat the caption and I don't see how the third would assist a visually impaired reader. Much as I dislike holding up my poor efforts as good practice, have a look at some of the alt text here to see if it gets the gist across. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've improved the alt text for the Conewago Chapel image. For the Georgetown campus image, I'm not sure what other detail can be added about what the image depicts. Ergo Sum 03:29, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have had a quick, rough and ready, stab at alt text. See what you think. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. Ergo Sum 23:45, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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Spotchecks; cites - pass
  • 1: check.
  • 27: check.
  • 30: "and died at Georgetown College on June 9 of that year. He is buried in the college's Jesuit Community Cemetery". I am unable to find information on his place of death or of burial on the page given.
    • Buckley p. 130 says he died at Georgetown. The burial place was initially cited to Find a Grave, which has since been moved down into the External links section. It's quite clear from the grave photo on Find a Grave that Feiner is buried in the Jesuit Community Cemetery at Georgetown, however, after searching, I'm unable to find any other source that verifies this. So, unfortunately, I've removed it. Ergo Sum 16:17, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, having to find a high quality RS for things you know to be the case can be a pain.
Just to say that I have no problem with the word as such, I simply don't see how it can be inferred from the source: "resigning ... he set out for Europe". One could as easily infer 'reluctantly'.
I found a page in the Buckley ref that supports Dubuisson's desire to sail for Europe, and so restored the word "eagerly." Ergo Sum 03:24, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 13: does not support "This was likely due to his fluency in the German language".
  • 8: "where the Jesuits were permitted to operate despite being suppressed by the pope and expelled from Western Europe". Could this not be supported by a source a little more current than 1875?
    • I'm sure there are, and at one point in the past, I looked for a more contemporary source describing the timeline of the Jesuits suppression. I didn't come up with anything then (I found plenty of sources where I'd have to cite to whole chapters to capture the entire event, which isn't helpful to a reader). This older one quite nicely describes it in a succinct way. Ergo Sum 16:20, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Considering a 150-year-old source high quality seems pretty marginal, but I shall let it pass.
Other notes
  • "who had filled the position since 1824, was dismissed from the Society of Jesus and left for New York City. When Feiner relinquished the office the following year". This gives the impression that "the following year" was 1825, when you mean 1826.

Gog the Mild (talk) 12:37, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note @Gog the Mild: - how are you feeling about the spot checks? Ealdgyth (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ealdgyth, I am feeling fine about them. Apologies, if I do spot checks I see them as part of a source review, so my "pass" for that was intended to include the spot checks. Now clarified. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:21, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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