Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/2006 boys high school basketball All-Americans/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 23:04, 20 July 2010 [1].

2006 boys high school basketball All-Americans

Featured list candidates/2006 boys high school basketball All-Americans/archive1

Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because it is a notable list deserving of recognition as a WP:FL. TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~ Comments from KV5

~~The lead still needs a copyedit. I've spotted at least one sentence fragment and some punctuation/grammar issues. I'll see if I can get to it at some point today.~~ — KV5 • Talk • 14:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Copyedit is done. — KV5 • Talk • 20:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - O.K., but why did you say that the McDonald's was the largest, when Parade has 40 players?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Because I'm dumb. — KV5 • Talk • 12:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        O.K., but is there anything I can do to get your support?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        The list looks fine to me right now, but I'll wait to see what others have to say. — KV5 • Talk • 14:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Support — final once-over looks good. — KV5 • Talk • 12:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5

Lead should be expanded. It seems quite short.
- I don't know how much is relevant. I could state that a high number of players make it to the NBA or something, but I don't know much else to add.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Players who were chosen by all four groups? You haven't talked at all about the players themselves in the lead, and they are the subjects of the list.
    - How is it now?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This article isn't stable yet. It shouldn't be nominated until all players have exhausted their eligibility or declared that they are not becoming professionals
- The 2010 NBA Draft is tomorrow. Only a handful of players in this group have remaining eligibility.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - What about the player who's listed in the 2011 NBA Draft? Who knows if he will even be drafted? That event isn't occurring for another year. Why is a player listed as "TBD" in the draft column? And one is blank? — KV5 • Talk • 18:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I added TBD to the key.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:37, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The notes column is empty.
- Like at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/2009 College Football All-America Team/archive1‎, where we decided to note the major player of the year awards, I was thinking to add High School Player of the Year awards.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - If those awards are notable, I see no reason why not, but that should have been done prior to nomination. WP:FL? says that featured lists are supposed to be complete. — KV5 • Talk • 18:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - It is a minor addition since there are only a few notes to add. I am in uncharted territory. This is not like doing a Tallest building, Discography, or team season list. I am pretty much the ground breaker for All-American teams. I just needed some minor feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What do the headers mean?
- Are they clear now.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - No; no change was made to the headers. A reference was added but I still have no idea what they mean. I could probably figure it out by process of elimination, but it shouldn't be that difficult. Add a key. — KV5 • Talk • 18:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - O.K. Done--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The table is completely unreferenced at this time.
- Refs added.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Players who were not/are not being drafted should sort at the bottom when the draft column sorts, not at the top.
- I was hoping you list guys might be able to help me correct this sorting issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:52, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Set sortkeys, using {{sort}}, on the "N/A" and "TBD" cells. — KV5 • Talk • 22:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have tried to resolve this with your suggestion. Some of the numbers are still not sorting correctly.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:54, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - I used a set of hard codes to force the sorting.
All blank cells need centered em-dashes.
- I fixed the last one that I saw.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - The entire notes column, as well as Mike Jones' college, still need them. — KV5 • Talk • 12:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What are the "???" for? It's not on the key.
- Clarified.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is the "Notes" column really necessary if there are only two players with awards? Perhaps those could be put in footnotes instead.
- There is some discussion on the talk page about adding other items to this column such as NCAA POY recognition. Any thoughts?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - None that are specifically relevant to that discussion. — KV5 • Talk • 12:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - In the absence of commentary, I added notes to Durant.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Some players who played for two schools have slashes, and other have commas. Be consistent.
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:18, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sold on the structure of the lead. Right now, it seems kind of jumbled, and seems to be structured starting very specifically at the beginning and expanding to general at the bottom. More general information should be at the beginning of the lead to introduce the topic and then it should continue to more specific information later in the lead. The bold in the first sentence seems forced. This could be changed, because the bold in the first line is not completely necessary.
- I have changed the order of paragraphs in the WP:LEAD and made a new section.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't think you need the other level two header. It unnecessarily breaks the lead. However, the first sentence of the second paragraph, which should no longer be bolded, is a very awkward read. "2006 high school boys basketball All-Americans are boys high school basketball players who were selected to major national All-American teams" says the same thing twice. Perhaps a re-write would be helpful. — KV5 • Talk • 12:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have revised the text, rearranged it and moved the page. With the rearranged text, the LEAD only has general content that could be used in the article for each year this list is created.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - The point of the lead is not to have general, reusable content. The beginning of the lead (the first two paragraphs) can be the same from year to year, but there's no reason not to combine the two sections and make a respectable four-paragraph lead (right now, it's five, but the players with remaining eligibility will eventually be deleted). A lot of the MLB awards lists did the same thing (see WP:Featured topics/Silver Slugger Award and WP:Featured topics/Rawlings Gold Glove Award). — KV5 • Talk • 12:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In short, WP:FLC is not peer review. This list is not complete. — KV5 • Talk • 17:11, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Non-ISO date format preferred (use MDY or DMY instead).
- I am not actually sure what you are talking about. Could you clarify.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:50, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I fixed it with a script. — KV5 • Talk • 22:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Table headers should be bold in the key if they are bold in the table.
- Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't start sentences with numerals ("21 Jordan Brand players..."); use words instead.
- I revised the sentences to retain consistency of numeric format.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"NA" should be N/A or n/a
- Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:46, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these additional comments help. — KV5 • Talk • 18:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What are "Jordan Brand players"?
- I added a link.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - It might be better, instead of just linking Jordan's name, to link "Jordan Brand" itself to the appropriate section of his article that talks about the brand. It brings a lot more context that way. — KV5 • Talk • 12:00, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - It is discussed in two separate sections. I have linked it to the first.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:09, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - The second section would be better because it describes the genesis of, and the impetus behind, the Jordan Brand, rather than just saying it's a clothing line. — KV5 • Talk • 12:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:35, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        The link isn't located on the first occurrence of the term. — KV5 • Talk • 14:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Em-dashes still are not centered. — KV5 • Talk • 14:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you sure? I don't know how to do this and neither 2009 College Football All-America Team nor 1991 College Baseball All-America Team, which I recently took through FLC, had this feature.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Centered dashes are almost always preferred in empty cells to left-aligned ones, unless there's some compelling reason not to. To get the results, use {{center}}. — KV5 • Talk • 17:39, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:42, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I think it would be useful to state if these players played for a college team and for which college team, but that is just a suggestion. Remember (talk) 16:58, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - looks good to me. Remember (talk) 23:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:06, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

"A team of 24 McDonald's All-Americans was selected. Jordan Brand selected 21 players. The USA Today All-USA prep basketball team included 15 players. This list includes the 40 Parade All-Americans." This group of sentences has no flow when read consecutively. Fortunately, improving the readability won't be difficult. The first three sentences are short, and could all be combined into one; this could be followed by "This list also includes...".
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:10, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Parade should be in italics as a printed publication. It isn't in the lead, though it is in the references.
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:13, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All-American linked twice in the lead.
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"the following players were selected by to all four lists". Remove "by".
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:18, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All-American Teams. First, decapitalize Teams in the section heading.
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remove comma in "For teams, where no such enumeration exists...".
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:06, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the table, there's a blank row for Alex Stepheson. What is this intended to mean?
- I have to figure out when his eligibility expires. He was a late addition to the table. It was suggested that I add a collegiate affiliation column by someone above. Do you think I should do so. If I do then when I find all that information, I will likely figure out a bit about Stepheson.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:15, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I have filled in some of his info.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Spell out the publisher of reference 6 (NCAA). Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:04, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ref

Waiting on KV5's response, if any, to his group of comments. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, since KV5 seems content, I'll support the list. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I added the NCAA Most outstanding player to the notes section for Wayne Ellington before I realized that the chart wasn't really listing individual college awards. Should this chart include these awards, and if so, which ones? Remember (talk) 13:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tony, has this been issue been resolved? Dabomb87 (talk) 17:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a non-issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:42, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 14:15, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I don't think we need to link "athlete".
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nor media.
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Last couple of sentences of first para don't flow well for me. You talk about first ever All-American team in one but then flow into the next sentence where positions suddenly become important.
- I have moved the last sentence.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:41, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Title has no apostrophe while this sentence "...boys' high school basketball players" does, is there a difference?
- removed from text. Not sure if title should be changed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"to compete in a basketball game" you've already said they're basketball teams.. is this really necessary?
- Tweaked wording.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd look to link "underclassmen" - this isn't a term that non-US (i.e. me) folks are familiar with.
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"(first, second, etc.). " does the WP:MOS like .).?
- Not sure of your point, but have tweaked.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I missed it but you don't explicitly link McDonalds in the lead.
- Second sentence of second paragraph.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - "Both the McDonald's All-American team selection and the Jordan Brand All-American team selection have associated all-star games held in conjunction with them, in which the players are divided into two teams to compete in a basketball game" no explicit link to McDonalds. Just a link to the McD AA team. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - That is the proper link. The restaurant is not so relevant to this article, IMO. Why do you think we need the restaurant in this article?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Just want to be sure that if you reference the "restaurant" then there's an actual unique link somewhere in the list. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"by the time they have exhausted their collegiate eligibility" what does that mean to a non-expert?
- Is that O.K?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
En-dash in the parade column means what? And should it sort above 1?
- Not sure where it should sort, but I have added it to the legend.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, Parade and USAT don't sort correctly in Safari. They have four sort configurations, presumably due to the en/em-dash.
- I defer to the list experts to resolve this issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 3 has a double ..
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Same for ref 59.
- Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:23, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco

Comments

My main problem is that the lead doesn't flow with me. Its all over the place, its goes from explaining the year 2006's selections but it really doesn't give a background to the selections and if it does, its located too late in the lead. I recommend you give the reader a background to the selections, the teams that there are in the selection process, and other etc. information that is needed. So basically, like move the information regarding the history/background of the selectors/selecting process to come first before the information about the 2006 event.

Moved a bit.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, add some transitions in the lead, like instead of "McDonald's named blah blah" why not "For the 2006 selections, McDonald's selected blah blah".

Many MOS guides discourage, just adding words for that effect. I made a few changes though.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the need to link United States in the lead.

You are right.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:19, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In the table below, each column represents an All-American team." -- this is a bit misleading since not every column is about the team, its more about the players.

O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:44, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The publishers for NBA.com isn't necessarily "NBA.com" that's just the URL. The publisher is the National Basketball Association

Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:16, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 50, needs a publisher, not a URL.

thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The publisher for the Naismith awards needs to be either capitalized and/or reevaluated to being published by the Atlanta Sports Council or Atlanta Tip Off Club.

Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:48, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"— - player not named to any team by that selector" - probably change that dash to the other types of dash you have for the rest of the key.

Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:52, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can add a <br> to the reference in the "Draft" column so you don't have to stretch that column out.--Truco ₅₀₃ 01:46, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:26, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- Issues resolved; meets WP:WIAFL. Good work!--Truco ₅₀₃ 15:40, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.