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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 17:38, 18 April 2011 [1].

First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union

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First Deputy Premier of the Soviet Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): TIAYN (talk) 14:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this list meets the FL-criteria. This will probably be my last list of Soviet leaders, of course, this is just a "probably". Anyhow, thanks for using your spare time reviewing this article. TIAYN (talk) 14:02, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Done " with the first deputyship" with their first deputyship?
  • Done "The first first deputy..." odd. Any possible way to re-phrase?!
  • Done "of the Sovnarkom,[1] there were three exceptions however" odd grammar and writing, would think the "there were..." should be after a semi-colon, not a comma, and I would put however before the "there were".
  • Done "after Stalin took a vacation; during Stalin's vacation Molotov " repetitive prose.

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done Don't like "0 years" in the table.
I can remove them, but I don't see the problem. 0 years is included in the Minister of Transport and Communications (Norway) which is a FL.
What is or isn't in another FL isn't really that relevant. I think "0 years" is unnecessary. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Please add alt text to the images.
  • Done I think this table may be a nightmare for screen-reading navigation, suggest you ask User:RexxS for some input here.
I don't see the problem, It's the same table as used in the List of Premiers of the Soviet Union article..... --TIAYN (talk) 21:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like RexxS (or someone else from the WP:ACCESS project to confirm that the table is suitable. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have asked him but he hasn't responded yet. --TIAYN (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He has retired...... so what should I do now? --TIAYN (talk) 13:26, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The rumours of my retirement have been somewhat exaggerated. I'm back from my wikibreak and I can confirm that the table (as it stands today) would be readable by many screen readers, although it really could do with some tidying. If you remember that a screen reader will find a 'row header' and a 'column header' for every data cell (so that it can announce them if required), then you can start to improve your markup or table structure to take account of that. To take an example, the cell containing "Minister of Internal Affairs" ought to have "Other offices held while first deputy" as its column header, and "Lavrentiy Beria" as its row header. It's good that "Lavrentiy Beria" is properly marked up with the row scope. Unfortunately there is another header - "First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers (1946–1990)" - between the data cell and the column header we want. It is quite possible that some screen readers may decide wrongly to use "First Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers (1946–1990)" as the column header instead of "Other offices held while first deputy". As usual, I would prefer to see the table reformatted to ensure that the subheadings couldn't be confused with the main column headings, and I'd personally prefer the table without the first column of numbers, but I can see how the present structure may be preferred purely from a visual point-of-view. Although the table is not optimal for accessibility, I would have to weigh the impact of greater compliance on the visual presentation. I'd have to conclude that the table is sufficiently compliant with MOS:ACCESS that I couldn't oppose its promotion to FL on those grounds.
From a maintenance point of view, I'd recommend getting rid of all of the rowspan="1" since they do nothing but clutter the text. Of course, that has no bearing on the quality of the list and I'd hope to see it promoted as soon as the remaining issues are resolved. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 23:42, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So therefore I'd like to remind the other FL directors that I do not object to this list being promoted. And I am, as ever, grateful to RexxS for swinging back by to give us some great advice. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:45, 8 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments:
Resolved comments from bamse (talk) 09:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Done Lavrentiy Beria spent the shortest time in office.: How long?
  • Not sure that the first "#" column makes sense since these were technically different positions, right? Can you convince me that it does make sense?
Not different position just different names for the same position. The Deputy didn't grew stronger with the name changes It remained more-or-less the same. Therefore, seeing that it was the same what's the point of dividing them? --TIAYN (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK. bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Not a big issue, but the column titled "Name (birth-death)" also has images (not mentioned in table header). Maybe a more neutral header like "Holder", "Deputy" or "Individual" could resolve this!?
  • Done Not too fond of "death=present" for those people that are still alive. Maybe just leave the year of death open, or write something like: "Born 1926".
There is still Vladilen Niktin... bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --TIAYN (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Could you center the hyphens in empty cells with {{center|—}}?
  • Explained Just curious, there are quite some pictures for the oldest deputies, but not for the more recent. (also more wikipedia articles for the old guys) Why is that?
Because historians have for a long time been more interested in Lenin—Stalin—Gorbachev Era history then Khrushchev—Brezhnev—Andropov—Chernenko Era history. Another point is that during the Khrushchev Era many long-standing notable members of the Soviet leadership were elected to the post, this was not the case during the Gorbachev Era. Russia's photo copyright expires after 50 years being taken, which means it's hard to find an image for, lets say Nikolai Tikhonov, seeing that he became big in 1976.. --TIAYN (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see, thanks for the explanation. bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done In "First Deputy Prime Minister of the Cabinet of Ministers (1990–1991)" it has a starting date of "1990" while Velichko/Doguzhiev's tenure starts in 1991. The template at the bottom of the article also has 1990. Why?
Because the Cabinet of Ministers was established in 1990, but I screwed up, the first First Deputies were elected to office in 1991 so yeah, I removed 1990. --TIAYN (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Could you also fix it in the template? bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

bamse (talk) 21:10, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. --TIAYN (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


  • Done I am a bit confused about what a "First Deputy" is. The first sentence says that it is the "vice-head of government". On the other hand there are times when there were two deputies at the same time. How can that be? Could it be discussed in the lead a bit more?
People could hold the office alongside someone. --TIAYN (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. How was the work/power shared between them? bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There didn't exist one official way of sharing power. But as said in the text "A first deputy was usually given responsibility over one specific area, an example being Mazurov, who was responsible for industry, and Dmitry Polyansky, whose responsibility was agriculture." --TIAYN (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Do I understand correctly, that as a vice-head of state the deputy(/ies) would take the role of the head of state occasionally? If so, which of the deputies would be first in line? bamse (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The First Deputies were the second-in-command of the Soviet Government, after them came the Deputies of the Soviet Union. The First Deputies were elected from the already elected Deputies of the Soviet Union, hence the name "First" deputies, since they were first-in-line. If the Premier could not perform his duties the First Deputies would act on his behalf until he again could perform his duties.
And no, they would not take on the role of head of government occasionally, they were just given control over some specific branches. The Premier still remained the boss but needed help from the First Deputies who then specialised, on the orders of the Premier, over one specific. --TIAYN (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for elucidating. So when the "Premier could not perform his duties", which of the First Deputies would act on his behalf? bamse (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Added another section discussing this, and some other duties and responsibilities. Is it okay now? --TIAYN (talk) 20:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect! bamse (talk) 20:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both; the constitution and the Law of the Council of Ministers simply says the first deputy would take his place nothing more, which by all means is a problem. If one was chosen I guess it would have something to do with the Premier's personal preference, or even worse, the General Secretary's personal preference. --TIAYN (talk) 20:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Could you add something like that to the lead? bamse (talk) 20:14, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • What do you mean? Logically the colspan lines ("First Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars (1934–1935/1941–1946)", etc) should extend over the first column, no?
What do you mean? --TIAYN (talk) 07:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You have three cells that extend over 5 columns ("First Deputy Chairman/Prime Minister..."). Wouldn't it be more logical to have these cells extend over the full table width, i.e. including the first column? bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That would screw up the layout; a title header over the number header would mean there was so many First DEputy Chairmen of the Council of Ministers, and not how many First Deputies of the Soviet Union. That's why I havn't done it + see my last two FLs; List of Premiers of the Soviet Union and List of heads of state of the Soviet Union, they both have the number header separate from the title header. --TIAYN (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. On the other hand you also have the premiers under the "Deputy" (colspan) header... Personally I would prefer an additional title column instead of these colspan headers or alternatively color coded backgrounds for the different titles. Anyway it is up to taste, so I don't insist. bamse (talk) 14:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As with the "1935–1941 break" above, I leave it outside of "resolved comments" in case other reviewers want to comment on it. I don't consider this point crucial. bamse (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --TIAYN (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done The First Deputy was given responsibility over a specific area... and A first deputy was usually given responsibility over one specific area... is repetitive. Possibly merge the second sentence (starting "A first...") into the second paragraph of the lead.
  • Done I don't understand the sentence: Molotov, being one of two first deputies under Joseph Stalin's tenure, nearly lost his position after Stalin took a vacation; Molotov had committed what Stalin saw as policy violations. Can you explain? bamse (talk) 00:01, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I reworded it. Stalin, the Premier, took a vacation which ment as First Deputy Molotov would take up the role as Acting Premier for a while. When Stalin came back from his vacation he found out that Molotov had committed several grave policy errors. --TIAYN (talk) 05:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Is the break 1935–1941 explained in the lead?
... no one was elected to the post. Is the reason for that known? bamse (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I don't know, and I haven't found any information regarding it. However, It may have something to do with Stalin's leadership-style, e.g. giving as much power to himself as possible. --TIAYN (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I see. If there are no references, we can't do much about it. I just leave it outside of "resolved comments" in case another referee knows of a reference. bamse (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Think I've found the answer; there were only three Deputies of the Soviet Union (in the immediate post-war years there were 7) between 1935–1941 who held the post simontanously meaning that there was no point in appointing a deputy to the post of first deputy. --TIAYN (talk) 15:30, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Possible, but as far as I can see, there were not a whole lot of deputies in 1934/35 either. Anyway, unless there is a source discussing this break, any guess concerning the reason cannot be used in this article. bamse (talk) 17:09, 7 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support, still hoping for somebody to dig up a reference that discusses the 1935 break. bamse (talk) 12:32, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Comments –

  • Done "and in the case of the Premiers absence...". "Premiers" → "Premier's".
  • Done At the end of the sentence with the last commented-on part, there's a space between the citation and accompanying page number. I'd remove it, since the other page numbers come with no spaces.
  • Done Comma needed after Dmitry Polyansky. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

Explanation All three sites are written by a professional staff who backs up their claims by listing references at the bottom of the their articles. One example, on the pseuduology.org article they list the 3rd edition of The Great Soviet Encycloapedia as one of their sources. The two other links also use sources. --TIAYN (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave these unstruck in case someone else wants to discuss the sources, but I'll AGF here and accept that they're as trustworthy as you say they are. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:55, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:10, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments: "A total of 26 individuals had held this post. None of them died in office or resigned from it, and 18 of them held other posts simultaneously with their First Deputy Premiership." Since none died/resigned, I'm wondering if it's necessary for inclusion. We could cut that out and splice those two sentences together, which may be cleaner. Only issue I found. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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