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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in equestrian/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 16:54, 28 November 2009 [1].

List of Olympic medalists in equestrian

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Nominator(s): Dana boomer (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

This list, describing the medalists in equestrian sports at the Olympics, is my first FLC and really the first list I've worked on seriously. It has recently undergone a peer review, which garnered comments from one other editor. I believe this article meets all of the criteria for a featured list, but, since this is my first nomination, I may have missed something completely! Thanks in advance for you time and opinions. Dana boomer (talk) 22:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Geraldk

Comments quick ones, starting more in-depth review now, but...

  • please fix the disambiguation links in the toolbox at right
  • in the alt text for the dressage photo, top hat should be two words, unless this is a specific variation used ion the equestrian community
  • the NBC Olympics links are broken.

Geraldk (talk) 22:45, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should be all done. Sorry about the blond moment on checking the dabs and external links before nominating... Dana boomer (talk) 22:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, I forget all the time. Geraldk (talk) 23:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments - there's lots of stuff here, but I do want to say I'm impressed at all the work on the list - it's coming a long way.

  • in the second sentence, it should probably read something like, 'when competitions in polo...' to make the last clause work grammatically
  • in the first paragraph discussion of which events have been competed in, you have no mention of discontinued events. This means the section of medalists in discontinued events later has no context. It's also unclear when you list current events that these are the only events in modern games rather than simply being added to the list at the first games.
  • what are the other sports where men and women compete against each other?
  • it would be interesting to hear more detail about famous or trend-setting medalists, ones which have some prominence in the equestrian community, etc. Also, were there any medalists who medaled multiple times in the same games, or many times across many games?
  • Added a little bit more info. It's common for equestrians to medal multiple times in the same games, because they compete in both the team and individual event. The info I added was on a the competitor who competed in the greatest number of games; others who competed in multiple games can be seen in the Athlete medal leaders section. I'm not really sure what you mean by "famous or trend-setting"; many of these competitors are well-known in their fields, but none really more than others. Dana boomer (talk) 00:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • there's something wrong with the table formatting on the discontinued high jump table
  • I'm confused by image placement - some sections have none at all, some have many
  • I would distribute them more evenly. The presence of room between the table and the side of the article varies by browser settings, so I'd just put in the images and let the browser auto-formatting consense text as necessary. Geraldk (talk) 00:57, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • it isn't a problem for me, but other reviewers may comment on the number of redlinks - you may want to ask other interested editors if they would work on creating stubs for some of them
  • on the individual events table, your formatting is reversed in the medalist cells - the medalist should come first and the name of the country second in individual events (this is, after all, a list of medalists). The country only comes first in team events. Again, see the table tennis list to see what I'm talking about.
  • the title of the first general reference is a description, not its actual title. Also, the filters on the page you link too aren't very user-friendly, you may want to link here instead.
  • some ref formatting doesn't match, for example 'Sports Reference LLC' is italicized in one place and not italicized in another
  • it might be useful to split the one actual note from the specific references, also 'all other serious databases' is a statement that would need sourcing - what's a serious database?

Geraldk (talk) 23:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have fixed all of the issues above. Please let me know if further work is needed. Dana boomer (talk) 21:35, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's the redlink for in note 2? Geraldk (talk) 21:59, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because I screwed up the convert template. Fixed now. Dana boomer (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - all my issues have been addressed promptly and thoroughly. Geraldk (talk) 23:42, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There is an error - 2008 Hong Kong should say 2008 Beijing - even though the event was held in Hong Kong, it is still considered as part of the Beijing Olympics. As far as I know, this is different from the 1956 Summer Olympics situation.—Chris!c/t 23:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Dana boomer (talk) 00:06, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I like the fact that the names of the horses were included here, similar to the official IOC website medallists database (and unlike in other wikipedia articles about the Olympic sport, like List of 2008 Summer Olympics medal winners). There is this entry for the 1980 winner though, where the Italian gold medal winner has the flag of the IOC affixed to the name instead of the Italian flag. I know that some countries then decided to carry the IOC flag instead of their national flags during the opening ceremony as a form of protest. But I'm not sure if the usage of IOC flag has been carried over to the medalist/s' affiliation or the official medal tally. Also, is there a way to make the column width uniform or at least visually "smooth" throughout the article? I am specifically referring to the discontinued events, wherein due to the pictures, the width of the tables are zigzagging throughout the section. Joey80 (talk) 01:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure if this is a standard format but looking at the other featured list related to Olympic medallists, like List of Olympic medalists in table tennis, there is a link underneath every Olympic edition, labeled as details. Maybe this can also be included here. Thanks. Joey80 (talk) 02:02, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really a requirement and a priority but a matter of personal taste, but the table of content can also be tweaked a bit to have a look of brevity and compactness. Again, please refer to the TOC of List of Olympic medalists in table tennis. I think this will be applicable to the events currently included in the Olympic program, but the discontinued events will likely have a similar format in the table of content. Joey80 (talk) 02:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The flags of the Italian team have been brought up recently at the Olympics wikiproject. Across wikipedia articles, athletes are listed with the flags they marched under in the opening ceremony. The consensus on that has not changed, though if you wish to participate in the discussion about it, the link is here. The only way to make the table widths uniform is to eliminate pictures, to string a long row of picture such that no section is without them, or to set a standard width for columns. The former is obviously not a good idea and the latter messes up the page when viewed by some browsers. And the middle option requires more pictures than are usually available on any one topic. So, as annoying as it is, until someone finds a solution, the zigzagging is pretty common with featured lists. Geraldk (talk) 02:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, fine. For the widths of the table, apparently, the Long Jump event is the one that has a different width when compared to other discontinued events, so a pic can be added or a longer pic can be found to replace the pic above it. Joey80 (talk) 02:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with the rules/scoring systems for Equestrian. But will it be possible to include a note on why there was this edition in which the gold medal was won by two competitors (e.g. in other sports like gymnastics and athletics track events, an asterisk/cross is placed beside the names of competitors to indicate that their time/scores are the same), and why there was an edition in which there was no bronze medal winner? Joey80 (talk) 02:57, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Outdent) Joey80, thank you for your comments. I have included notes that explained the two differences in medaling. The details links have been added (Gerald also asked for them above!). The IOC flag thing has hopefully been explained above (thankfully, because I wasn't really sure what the answer was!). The main reason that the tables zig-zag in the discontinued events section is that some competitors' names are longer than others, and the short tables make this more obvious. I hope these explanations help, and if you have more questions, please let me know. Dana boomer (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. All of my comments have been resolved too. Joey80 (talk) 02:16, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Andrwsc
    1. The medal totals disagree with official sources. The four-in-hand, hacks and hunters combined, and mail coach events at the 1900 Paris Games are not considered Olympic events, and should be removed from this list. Certainly, they should not appear in the medal totals. When there are discrepancies between sources, we defer to the IOC to define what they consider Olympic or not.
    1. Also, the medal totals need to be re-sorted by IOC convention (also used on every other Wikipedia Olympic article), by number of golds first, number of silvers second, and number of bronze third. See the table on the main Equestrian at the Summer Olympics for correct totals. Note also that "EUA" totals are not combined with "GER", per longstanding consensus.
    1. Lastly, we should respect the requested citation style for Sports-Reference, with the author field included, per [2]. I have been using something like:
      Kubatko, Justin. "Equestrianism". Olympics at Sports-Reference.com. Sports Reference, LLC. Archived from the original on 2020-04-17. Retrieved 2009-11-10.
I believe that I have addressed all of your comments above. Please let me know if further work is needed. Dana boomer (talk) 22:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't notice this before, but the "Mixed four-in-hand" and "Mail coach" are different names for the same event. It should only be listed once, of course. And Georges Nagelmackers is Belgian (he's listed as German in the four-in-hand table). The other thought is that I think it would be much better to have a sentence of prose text to explain the unofficial events, rather than attaching a note to the section header. (I'm not even sure that technique is MOS compliant.) — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 06:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for catching this, and I think I have this all sorted. Let me know if it still needs more work. Dana boomer (talk) 13:21, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Still some more comments (sorry these are coming in bits & pieces!):
  • The intro states The Summer Olympics have included 2,129 equestrian participants, including 1,751 men and 378 women, from 69 countries. I think this type of statement would need to be sourced (you got this from Sports Reference), but there is actually a lot of uncertainty in the number of competitors in early Games. For example, Mallon's research shows 48 known competitors in 1900, but he also estimates 64 competitors. So any total that purports to be a definitive number actually has some uncertainty. Perhaps add a footnote that explains this?
  • I think you need references for the oldest and youngest competitors. (Sports Reference)
  • The intro disagrees with the medal table with respect to total medals won by Germany. This might be an excellent place for an explanatory statement (e.g. "German riders have won a total of 81 medals, 42 by Germany from 1912–1952 and 1992–2008, 25 by West Germany from 1968–1988, and 14 by the Unified Team of Germany from 1956–1964." plus maybe a footnote that states that the IOC makes a distinction between these three teams, but other sources (like S-R) combine the EUA and GER totals but keep FRG distinct.
  • I think the intro really ought to explain two unusual instances in Olympic history, namely the 1956 event in Stockholm (because of Australian quarantine reasons) and the decision to put the 2008 event in Hong Kong (because of air quality concerns, if I remember correctly). This would also be a good place to explain that the Stockholm "Equestrian Games" were set apart from the main Games in Melbourne (a few months later) and had their own opening and closing ceremonies, a different organising committee, etc. The boycott of Switzerland in Melbourne also led to the interesting "paradox" of them winning a medal at a Games they are shown as having boycotted (because of the bronze in Stockholm). But for 2008, the equestrian events in Hong Kong were still an integral part of the Beijing Games, organised by BOCOG, etc.
  • I think the Sports Reference citations are still not quite right. The {{cite web}} call should have |work=Olympics at Sports-Reference.com and the |title= parameter ought to match the page title (before the pipe). For example, "Equestrianism" instead of "Sports Reference database" for the page at http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/sports/EQU/ in your list of general references.
That's it for now (and hopefully I don't see anything else). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe all of the above have been taken care of. Dana boomer (talk) 21:18, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Better, but Note 2 isn't accurate as written. GDR is not the same as EUA, which is what I would infer from what you wrote. EUA is the code used to identify the Unified Team of Germany, which consisted of competitors from both West Germany (later FRG) and East Germany (later GDR). This arrangement lasted for three Olympiads before they decided to compete as separate teams starting in 1968. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Dana boomer (talk) 22:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, it isn't. The note now says "Note that this combines the totals of Germany as a whole country and the Unified Team of Germany (EUA), but does not include those medals won by the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany)." The intro still says 42 medals (21 gold), which is not a combined total of GER+EUA. Check the numbers in the table. The note also says "The IOC considers these three separate countries and lists their results as such, but another major database combines Germany and the EUA, while leaving the FRG separate." Actually, the IOC considers them as distinct NOCs, not "countries". You should also reference the "another major database" comment. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about now? Dana boomer (talk) 19:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! Maybe add a link to National Olympic Committee for "NOC" and I think it's done. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Link added. Dana boomer (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • All of my previous comments have been addressed, but on a final run-through, I have two more:
    1. All images need proper alt text per WP:ALT.
    2. The team events need valign=top in the table cell formatting to align the flags. That is the common style on all other list articles in this series.
    Getting very close!! — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What images can you see that need alt text? As far as I can tell, they all do already. I think I've added the valign tags correctly, although I'm not that familiar with table formatting, so I may have done it wrong. Dana boomer (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry about the alt text; my browser setting had changed.. As for the valign you need it for each table cell. For example, change every instance of |{{flagIOCteam|... to |valign=top|{{flagIOCteam|.... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 21:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Back when I was working on the List of Olympic medalists in alpine skiing, it originally had a "medals by nation" table similar to the one here. However, I was told to move it back to the main article because they are sibling articles and it's more appropriate at the main one. I think that should be done here too for consistancy, because most of the medalists lists I've seen (although admittedly I haven't checked all of them) lack the table. -- Scorpion0422 II (Talk) 14:43, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see what some of the other reviewers have to say about this. Some of the other Olympic lists have no by-country information, while many have country medals per year tables. There doesn't seem to be any guideline calling for the table to exist or not exist (unless I've missed one). I'm willing to change the table, either by moving it back to the main article or changing it to a medals per year table. However, this list already has two supports with the current table in place, and so I don't want to seriously change a main table in the article without at least giving the other reviewers the chance to chime in. Dana boomer (talk) 22:13, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to see consistency across all these articles, so if that means keeping the medal table only in the main article, then it should be removed here. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:45, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am substituting the current medals by country table with a medals by country by year template, to keep it consistent with most other FLs of this type. Please see the discussion with Reywas below for further details. Dana boomer (talk) 21:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 15:48, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • Question - shouldn't this be in "equestrianism"?
    • I don't think so, although if it's a big deal, it would probably be a question to ask the Olympics project. My understanding is that this (as well as the main article, Equestrian at the Olympics) is named as it is because the IOC calls it "Equestrian", not "Equestrianism", and WP goes by what the IOC calls an event.
  • "considered a separate sport by the International Olympic Committee" - separate from what?
    • Fixed, I think.
  • How does ref 4 back up the idea that the pentathlon riding isn't considered part of the equestrian events?
    • Because the showjumping is part of the pentathalon and so by definition cannot be part of the equestrian events. Removed "considered".
  • "and through 1948" vs "mechanisation" - the first is very US Eng, the second is spelt in Brit Eng... consistency please. Esp with "recognize" later on...?
    • I think I've made it consistant, but please point out (or feel free to fix) any other instances of Brit Eng.
  • You should be more specific when you link sailing - perhaps to sailing in the olympics.
    • Fixed, and also fixed the badminton link.
  • "different location than the" - usually "different from".
    • Fixed.
  • Abbreviate IOC after the fully expanded term.
    • Fixed, I think.
  • "IOC committee" - isn't C for committee?
    • Fixed.
  • "At a separate meeting " - what do you mean by separate here?
    • Fixed, I think.
  • "This also led to the fact that although Switzerland officially boycotted the 1956 Games, due to the Soviet Union's recent invasion of Hungary, they still brought home a medal due to their participation in the equestrian portion several months earlier" - reads clumsily to me. I dislike "led to the fact", perhaps we can reword it...
    • Tried rewording. See what you think.
  • "when in 2005 international " commas after when and 2005.
    • Fixed.
  • "making it so that when horses left" again, clumsy prose.
    • Tried rewording. See what you think.
  • oldest/youngest competitor is interesting but this is about medal winners so perhaps you should have the oldest/youngest medalists?
    • I have no found no information on the oldest/youngest medal winners in my sources. Have you found a source that could provide this information?
  • Is it worth including the fact that the events weren't held in 1916, 1940 and 1944 due to war?
    • Since this was an Olympic-wide thing, I don't think it's something that needs to be mentioned in an equestrian medalist list.
  • On my browser, for 1980, the flags are after the text. Seems to be the only one.
    • I'd missed it in my formatting changes. It's now consistent with the others.
  • Team dressage not in 1960 - why and reference please.
    • I can't find anything either in my books or online about why this event was not held.
  • Ind. Eventer, Roman, Italian but Olympic flag - worth a note if this is correct.
    • This is correct, see the discussion above. The Italian team marched under the IOC flag, and so this is the flag that the athletes are listed under when they won a medal in that games.
  • "show-jump" or "show jump"? Or even "showjump"... Be consistent.
    • I think I have made these consistent to "show-jump".
  • "No medalists - No nation completed the course with three riders." - see WP:DASH and why capitalise the second No?
    • Removed the dash, replaced with parentheses, de-capitalized second "no".
  • "'88" etc, not sure but I don't think we should abbreviate years that way. Just use the full year.
    • Fixed
  • Names should use {{sortname}} so they sort correctly.
  • If I sort by gold, then Werth comes third - with more silvers and more overall, she should come second in that sort.
    • I'm not sure how to fix this?
  • Don't mix up date formats in the references.
    • As far as I know, they're not. All access dates are YYYY-MM-DD, while the creation dates are Month Day, Year. They are all internally consistent, and this has been fine in other featured work that I've done...

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replies interspersed above. Thanks for your review. Dana boomer (talk) 22:09, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments – TRM caught a couple of the sentences that I thought were awkward, and the sorting difficulties, so I won't repeat those comments here. Don't believe anything below is a duplicate from before, but I could be wrong.
  • Capitalize "games" in first sentence.
    • Fixed.
  • "and one of very few equine drug-testing labs in the world." Add "the" before "very"?
    • Reworded.
  • There are a lot of red links in the tables. I don't personally feel that it violates FL criteria in that respect, but others may disagree with me. At the very least, filling in these red links would be a good project for someone in the future.
    • A few red links have already been filled in during the course of this FLC (either through article creation or finding articles that already existed under a slightly different name), and it is a future project of mine to fill in many more.
  • Reference 13 is to Brittanica, a fellow encyclopedia. I'd feel better if another source could be found to replace it.
    • Replaced.

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replies interspersed above. Thanks for your review. Dana boomer (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – With my comments taken care of earlier, I was waiting on the resolution of the other comments, particularly those of TRM. Now that that's done, I'm happy to back this list, Great first effort! Giants2008 (27 and counting) 16:06, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Reywas92Talk *What is the total number of medals awarded?

    • Added.
  • What is the total number of people who have won at least one medal?
    • I haven't been able to find this information in my sources. Do you know of anyplace that gives this information?
      • Counting them with AWB, there are 564 medal winners.
  • Do you mind making a custom TOC like in other Medalist FLs?
    • I played around with doing this (in response to a comment above), but couldn't find a shortened table format that I was happy with. The fact that there are so many different events makes the custom TOC not much shorter or nicer than the current one, and something to do with the different lengths of the events' names make some of the other events and sub-sections off-set weirdly, looking very unprofessional. If you can come up with a custom TOC that looks good, I would have no problem with it in the article, but with my (admittedly limited) formatting skills, I haven't been able to.
      • That's fine, it's not required.
  • I would prefer the Medals by country table be replaced by Medals per year. It is redundant to Equestrian at the Summer Olympics#Medal table and should be consistent with other Medalist lists.
    • I am working on this replacement table in a sandbox, but gathering and entering the information into the table is taking me some time. I hope to spend some time working on this tonight and maybe even finish it. I will let you know when the new table has been imported into the list.

Everything else looks fantastic and I love how you included the horses' names. Reywas92Talk 22:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reywas, thank you for your comments. I apologize for being slow to answer them - real life has been busy for the past two days and I haven't had much online time. I've interspersed my replies so far above, and will continue to work on the issues as time permits. Dana boomer (talk) 12:55, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're fine. One more thing is to check multiple spellings. In many cases where the athlete has foreign symbols in his/her name, it is spelled with them in one place and without in another. At least one redlink is actually a bluelink but has the wrong spelling: Pierre Durand Jr. should link to Pierre Durand, Jr.. Michel Robert should be corrected to Michel Robert (equestrian). Reywas92Talk 22:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The table has now been finished and substituted, please take a look and see what you think. I've fixed the above two examples of links, plus another one that I found. Please let me know if you see any others - I've combed through and don't see any more, but it may just be because I've looked at it too often. I'm not completely sure I trust the AWB count - for example, does it count a person more than once if their name is spelled more than one way? Also, this information does doesn't seem to be necessary to include in Olympic lists, I've looked through other FLs of this sort, and it's included in some, but not in several others. Thanks for your thoughts. Dana boomer (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It does count both links, but there weren't very many and I'm sure I got them all unless the name was completely different. The medals per year table looks great, but please add dark backgrounds to years when a country didn't exist, like in List of Olympic medalists in alpine skiing#Medals per year. Reywas92Talk 21:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dark backgrounds have been added to years where the NOC didn't exist/didn't compete. Also, I made a mistake in my statement above which changed the meaning, please review the struck and rewritten word and let me know your thoughts. Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 00:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The table is fantastic! I think it is necessary and should be added to the rest of the lists as well. If I'm looking at a list of people who won medals, I want to know how many there are. I went through it again and I'm sure there are 564 people with an equestrian medal. Reywas92Talk 04:29, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will add the information then. However, just one more question before I do - does your count include the competitors in the last two "unofficial" events? It should not, because these are not considered official events, and are not included in the table. Dana boomer (talk) 13:10, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support then; all issues resolved. Nope, I removed them. Reywas92Talk 16:40, 27 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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