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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 19 June 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu

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List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This list was created recently per request during Yuzuru Hanyu GA peer-review. Yuzuru is one of if not the most known active figure skater today with more than 10 years of career and numerous world records broken. Henni147 and I have worked to expand and copy-edit the list according to Wikipedia's guidelines, and we want to make it better. This is also the first list of achievements article on a figure skater, so we hope to get some recommendations. Hopefully this list will pass. Thank you. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)
  • Images need alt text (WP:ALT)
  • Tables need column scopes on the column header cells (e.g. instead of "! Date", it should be "!scope=col| Date", for all columns for all tables
  • Rows need row scopes on the "primary" cell of each row (e.g. instead of "| March 23, 2019", it should be "!scope=row| March 23, 2019", for the primary column for each row
  • Tables need captions (e.g. "|+ caption_text", or if that text duplicates a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-software-only via "|+ {{sronly|caption_text}}")
  • Unfortunately, pseudo-column headers in the middle of a table made by colspans are contraindicated (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility/Data tables tutorial#Avoiding column headers in the middle of the table, and actual column headers repeated in the middle of a table are extra contraindicated- just sort on any column to see why they don't work even for regular browsers. The combo-tables should be split into separate tables, with the colspan header row converted into a caption.
  • --PresN 14:23, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I added all column and row scopes, split tables with mid-table headers and added Alt-texts for all pictures (I hope, they are fine and I didn't miss any). Henni147 (talk) 18:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: Update: I tried to format all tables according to the accessibility guidelines, but I had problems with the layout in the Absolute bests section. Initially the tables looked like this: page from May 20, but I feared that screen readers may have issues with two scope=row parameters in one row, so I decided to split the tables. However, they were totally different in size and the section looked very chaotic, so I created nested tables to get the tables at same width and vertical align, but that seems to cause issues for screen readers, too. Is it possible to achieve exactly the same result with <div> tags? I tried out many variations, but it didn't really work. Henni147 (talk) 18:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You're not going to be able to get them to act as if they're one table while being two tables, I don't think; If you want them to touch, change the "width="98%" in the table codes to "width="100%", but if you want them to be the same height you're just going to have to tweak the table contents to have the same number of text lines. --PresN 19:53, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: @Yolo4A4Lo: I found a solution now that avoids any kind of nested tables or multiple scope=row parameters in the same row and that looks decent on screens of any size: section draft. Yes, the right tables drop into the next line on smaller screens, but I think, that's still better than forcing two tables into one row and press the columns together.
If you support the solution, I will update the page. The other sections should be fine, I think? Henni147 (talk) 10:59, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It does look better for me on mobile and looks okay on desktop. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Henni147: That looks good to me. --PresN 14:30, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Thanks for your quick response. Henni147 (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comment
  • The opening sentence "This page lists records, accolades, competition results, statistics, and various career achievements of Japanese figure skater Yuzuru Hanyu." is not appropriate. A prose article does not start with "This page is all about the life and career of so-and-so", so similarly lists don't start in this way. That opening sentence should be replaced with a paragraph briefly summarising his life i.e. "Yuzuru Hanyu is a Japanese figure skater who began his career in 2004. He first competed at a senior level in 2010" etc etc -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:10, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Updated. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • No reason to bold the 7 in "Hanyu has set 7 world record scores"
  • "Current world record." should not be in bold or have a full stop
  • No reason to bold the 12 in "Hanyu has broken 12 world records"
  • "Historical world record." should not be in bold or have a full stop (this occurs multiple times)
  • "Youngest Japanese male single skater to win a medal at the World Figure Skating Championships (17 years, 3 months and 24 days)." - this is not a full sentence so shouldn't have a full stop (this occurs many times)
  • In quite a few cases, refs within a cell are not in correct numerical order
  • "First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple Loop jump" - no reason for capital L on loop
  • "First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple Toe loop-triple Axel sequence" - no reason for capital T (capital A is OK as it's named after a person)
  • "First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple Toe loop-Euler-triple Flip combination" - no reason for capital T or F
  • "Hanyu received the People's Honour Award from then Prime Minister Shinzo Abe for his historic and inspirational achievement at the Olympics in 2018" - this is a full sentence so needs a full stop
  • "Super Slam is an achievement of winning all major international competitions in both junior and senior level" => "Super Slam is an achievement of winning all major international competitions at both junior and senior level"
  • "Hanyu is the first male single skater to complete a Super Slam" - needs a full stop
  • "Hanyu has medalled at seven different Grand Prix events and won gold at four of them" - needs a full stop
  • "Hanyu's most successful season by medals was in 2013–14, where he has won his first Olympics, Worlds, Grand Prix Final, his second Japanese Nationals and seven medals in total" - needs a full stop, also it should be "when" not "where", and the word "has" should be removed
  • Two tables under Medal record by seasons should be in correct chronological order, not reverse, per WP:CHRONO
  • "If the highest GOE and highest total score for an element (due to the 10% bonus for jumps or levels for spins and sequences) were achieved at different events, both are added to the list" - needs a full stop, as does the bullet point below
  • "If the highest GOE and highest total score for an element" etc - this and the next four bullet points need full stops
  • "Hanyu received the perfect score of 10.00 in the Performance component for his short program at the 2015 Grand Prix Final" - needs a full stop
  • "Hanyu is the current record holder of all national best scores" - needs a full stop. Basically, all photo captions which are complete sentences need a full stop, check them all
  • "Scores achieved at domestic competitions are not recognized by the ISU as personal best scores" - needs a full stop
  • "List of all technical elements that received" etc - not a full sentence, shouldn't have a full stop
  • "Before the 2014–15 season Hanyu has not received any maximum scores for single technical elements" => "Before the 2014–15 season Hanyu did not receive any maximum scores for single technical elements."
  • Some refs which are in Japanese have the "(in Japanese)" but others don't
  • Some refs are missing the publisher (eg 53, 60, 96-98)
  • That's what I got on a first pass..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: Thank you very much for the detailed comments! I have some questions about the reversal of chronological tables:
  • Shall the medal record tables be in chronological order as well (junior above senior) or only the entries within the tables? Alternative solution could be to put senior and junior seasons in one table and mark the two junior seasons with a note.
  • This actually concerns the world record tables and detailed results as well. Shall I revert them, too? It might make sense to put all world records in one chronological table, add a column for the competition segment (SP, FS, Total) and enumerate the records in the first column. Or is it better to leave short, free and total records in separate tables?
  • The detailed results are a standard table on skaters' bios pages and should all have the same layout (that's why I haven't split it or added scope parameters yet). How to handle this issue best? Henni147 (talk) 09:09, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All issues above except for the table order has been handled by Henni147. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yolo4A4Lo: Well, almost. I'm formatting the references in the award section right now. Question about that:
I think for the Awards and Honors better stay as a list than table so it's easier for readers to differentiate the importance of awards from goverment/ISU/JOC from the media. I saw it's also the case for other sportpeople, while artists usually use a table instead. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 13:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yolo4A4Lo: I actually thought about creating three separate tables for awards from governing bodies, media and municipality, but if other sportspeople have similar award lists, we can leave it like this, too. Henni147 (talk) 15:54, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's OK to keep the junior and senior results separate, but they should definitely be in chronological order. So probably junior results first in chrono order and then senior -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:40, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay thanks. I will revert the medal record tables tomorrow.
This is a draft for a possible merge of the current WR tables. It has the big advantage that the size is dynamic and adapts better to different screens and devices. Is it worth a go? Henni147 (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: Final update: All tables are formatted according to the accessibility guidelines, sorted chronologically (detailed results included), punctuation errors are fixed, pictures are all licensed and Alt-texts added. A quick feedback would be great. Thank you very much. Henni147 (talk) 14:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support

I don't have much to add to the review of this list, since working with tables isn't one of my strengths as an editor, but I wanted to express my support that it be passed to FL. The work done to make this content presented, as well as its parent bio about Hanyu, is impressive. It's something that should be done across all figure skater bios, if appropriate, and can potentially serve as a model for similar lists of the career achievements of other figure skaters. This list goes far in the general goal of the improvement of all figure skating articles on Wikipedia, which is sorely needed. User:Henni147, I applaud you; nice work. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:34, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support

After the article for Hanyu was promoted, this article was submitted for FL review and developed by Henni147 and Yolo4A4Lo. The list looks very strong and is very useful for readers of the main article during this Olympics year when Hanyu will be competing for an Olympic Gold medal next February. Support for promotion. ErnestKrause (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
Resolved comments from RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Overall, the list looks good, but I do have to ask why the personal bests and absolute bests are included. Why are these notable? I understand why world/national records and medals have significance, but not those two sections. Anyone can have a personal best, regardless of skill level; are we saying that we should cover every skater's personal bests? That seems too broad; Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. And yes, I understand that Hanyu's personal bests are far above what almost anyone else will achieve, but without clear secondary coverage, I fail to see their notability (and even with secondary sources, I would question their inclusion). RunningTiger123 (talk) 19:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@RunningTiger123: I decided to include these sections, because in Hanyu's case the personal and absolute bests are not only his own, but the best overall in many cases. Like, in the short program he has set the first six of the highest scores ever recorded among all skaters. The 100 point mark in the SP, 200 in the FS and 300 in the combined total are crucial barriers that only very few skaters have surpassed in the course of their careers (5-6) and Hanyu has achieved that feat not only once, but multiple times, which is demonstrated in the tables.
You can argue, if the absolute bests are needed for TES and PCS (I think, they can be cut, if they don't meet the Wiki requirements), but I would definitely keep the AB tables for the SP, FS and total. A good solution might be to not list the top 5 scores of every segment, but only those scores that surpassed the barriers mentioned above.
I agree that the PB for technical elements are too many. Quad jumps and triple Axels only would do, too. I can shorten them, if needed.
And don't worry. These detailed tables will not be added to skaters' bios pages. There is also agreement that only skaters will get career achievement pages, who meet specific criteria like having completed a Grand Slam/Super Slam and set multiple world records. It makes indeed no sense to create such tables for every skater. Only if it's linked to a first or record. Henni147 (talk) 20:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see the significance of Hanyu achieving so many of the highest scores, but wouldn't that be more suitable to a page like List of highest scores in figure skating? And if we're going to start picking and choosing which of his personal and absolute bests to include, then we're definitely going to need secondary sources to justify why we're including some statistics and not others; otherwise, I would consider it a violation of WP:OR. At minimum, we should explain why whatever bests we include are notable. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I'm not set against the inclusion of some of this information; it just lacks context and therefore does not seem notable in its current state. RunningTiger123 (talk) 21:16, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In looking at athletes with careers that last for 10-12 years, like this case, then it seems useful to have a time history of personal bests to try to spot performance trends. Since his personal bests are dated by the events where he obtained these scores, then it seems useful to know if his best performances are part of his early career, or if his performance trends suggest that he is still getting better. Having the dates associated with the personal bests seems useful from this standpoint. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:33, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@RunningTiger123: Update: I re-structured the personal, national and absolute best sections now. The personal bests turned into international record scores by segment and event. I also moved the elements with maximum score into that section. In the absolute best section I only included scores above the mentioned point barriers. They are definitely significant as many newspapers have written about Hanyu becoming the first skater to surpass them and there is a very small group of elite skaters, who joined the "200 and 300 point club" at this point.
I decided to hide the best score sections by element and component, until I figured out, what to do with them. Henni147 (talk) 13:14, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I like the section a lot more now; I think the criteria are clearer and it makes sense why the scores are notable for inclusion. I don't have time right now to do a full review, so I won't give a formal vote, but I'm leaning towards a clear support for the list. If I have time this weekend, I'll do that full review and finalize my vote. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:05, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@RunningTiger123: The international and national record score sections are cleaned up, so that they are now in accordance with WP:NOR. Repeated links are removed as well. Henni147 (talk) 07:56, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from RunningTiger123 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With that resolved, here are my other comments.
  • "the youngest recipient" – need a source to confirm he is the youngest
Source added. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Place columns are currently sorting by country instead of city (probably due to the flag template); this is confusing at first glance and should be fixed to sort by the city
Fixed. Addition: I also added sort values to competitions with flagicons in all sections. Henni147 (talk) 10:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the historical world record table, the comments that he was "the only skater to score above x points" need additional sources (since the cited links wouldn't show scores above the cutoff but below the then-record)
But that's the thing, historical word records stopped in the 2018–19 season, and by that time only Hanyu scored above the mentioned cutoffs as shown in the cited links. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But isn't it possible that someone could have exceeded, for example, 110 points in the short program without breaking Hanyu's record? That wouldn't be recorded in the sources listed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've added another link to the list of all highest total scores which shows all high scores in the sport whether they broke a record or not. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 05:48, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "First single skater to be ranked first in the world standings for five consecutive seasons" – sources confirm that he was ranked first for five seasons, but not that he is the first person to achieve this
I fixed the link for "world standings" straight to this table where it's apparent that that is the case. Is that enough? Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, no (WP:CIRCULAR). However, if the table's sources are good, you can certainly use those. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I reckon it's acceptable then, because the source is the official data from ISU (figure skating union) and the table basically just summarizes the data. Unless, we want to cite all pages for the last 17 years. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 05:48, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:CIRCULAR: "Content from a Wikipedia article is not considered reliable unless it is backed up by citing reliable sources. Confirm that these sources support the content, then use them directly" (emphasis added). In other words, the supporting sources would have to be included here. Given that it would take a source from each year to support this statement, I think this would violate WP:OR and specifically WP:SYNTHESIS. I would remove the statement unless a secondary source notes his five consecutive years at number 1; that's not to say it's not an impressive feat, but it's not up to us to make those conclusions ourselves. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:11, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@RunningTiger123: Update: sources found and added. Inside Edge only reports the five consecutive no. 1 placements in the world standings, the Taiwanese source also added that Hanyu was the first male single skater to achieve the feat. However, I could not properly archive that source with the Wayback Machine (the website is correct, but the wrong article for whatever reason).
I'd like to note one serious issue with journalism particularly in figure skating. Propaganda and narratives have a big influence on the judging and results in this sport and the neutrality and professionalism of many seemingly reliable sources turned out to be questionable or even violate the code of ethics, including very selective news reports on skaters and their achievements. So we have to treat newspaper articles and magazines with care as well and who decides, which secondary source is "reliable" and which not? Heaven forbid that it's only up to some biased journalists to decide what is noteworthy or not in this sport. In my opinion, this is much more problematic than compiling some unshakable stats from primary sources. Henni147 (talk) 12:33, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Under municipality awards, link to Sendai should be moved up to first appearance
Fixed. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:55, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the detailed results section, the dates do not sort correctly (single dates will automatically be recognized and sort chronologically, but ranges of dates will not). You'll have to specify the sort values; see Help:Sorting if you are unsure what to do.
Fixed as well. Footnote: Currently dates of the form "Month DD, YYYY" get sorted automatically in correct order, if they are placed in a normal cell, but seem to cause issues, if they are placed in header cells (with plainrowheader parameter at least). Henni147 (talk) 10:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support – definitely an interesting and thorough list. If you're still having issues with archiving that one source, consider archive.today as an alternative. RunningTiger123 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RunningTiger123: Thank you very much for recommending the archive alternative! That works perfectly and I've added it to the page already. Henni147 (talk) 17:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Promoting. --PresN 03:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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