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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of retired Pacific typhoon names (JMA)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted 04:57, 19 March 2008.

List of retired Pacific typhoon names (JMA)

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Ugh, yea, it's another hurricane list. After publishing it earlier tonight (based on the featured List of retired Pacific hurricane names), I figured I'd give it a shot for FL status. I'd be happy to address any objections or concerns. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - Very well done list, it is comprehensive, accurate, and has great supporting pictures. Hello32020 (talk) 14:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I wrote the original basic outline, although I had little or no involvment with the list. I think it is very well written, well sourced, and is comprehensive. Juliancolton The storm still blows... 22:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support- I can not find anything wrong in this list. -EdgeNavidad (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. An exemplary list, and even if I hadn't checked it over - I know that any list worked on by HurricaneHink will be outstanding. Qst (talk) 20:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object.Why are SSHS colours used for storm background names? Shouldn't they reflect the JMA's typhoon-severe tropical storm-tropical storm scale instead?
JTWC names should be included. Even their supposed "unofficiality" is not a compelling reason to exclude them. Here's why. Meteorologists reporting on the name list change never mentioned that the JTWC's was unofficial[1][2], even calling pre-JMA names "official" [3][4]. Other languages include JTWC names when referring to older typhoons[5][6][7][8]. Meteorological papers often refer to typhoons by their JTWC names; a selection with the word typhoon in the title is here.[9]. The JMA acknowledges the JTWC's names, finding room to include them in its official best track data[10]. The JTWC's names may well be unofficial, but names retired from them should be included here because the JTWC's names were de facto official, and how many people refer to them by.
The introduction (p. iii) may perhaps contradict the date of the JMA becoming the RSMC given in the list. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 07:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, I fixed the colours (I forgot about the typhoon colour). Regarding the JMA, I think everything is still in order. The HKO reference clearly says the JMA "...has been delegated since 1981 with the responsibility of assigning to each tropical cyclone." The JMA reference just says the typhoon center was established in 1989. I'm guessing that the JMA issued warnings from 1981 to 1988, but the following year a specific typhoon department was developed, in which case there is no contradiction. However, I'll try and find a reference that is clearer on that.
  • Most importantly, regarding the JTWC names, I don't believe they should be included. While JTWC certainly issued naming, and they were/are widely known by those names, the naming was not official, and more importantly, I find no references that indicate the earlier names were considered "retired". I have done several Google searches, each time producing nothing. For example, a search on "Joint Typhoon Warning Center" Ike Mike Thelma Mireille produced only Wikipedia links. Surely, if they were considered retired, those names would have been mentioned. I suppose it's the project's fault for considering the JTWC names retired for so long (late 2005), but it's never too late to change. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I quote: "(This particular range of names from the circular list of 92 names was last used from early 1992 through mid-1993. Oscar replaces Omar, which was retired after its devastating strike on Guam in 1992.)"[11] (Scroll down to Subject 3). This dates from October 6, 1995. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 22:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is a very interesting link, and I've never seen that before. However, I've seen no other links for any of the others. If I were to find a link that said each name was retired, then I might create a table that listed those names, as there is some relevancy. However, I have found no such list, and rather than adding the one (Omar), I would rather limit it to the official, well-documented, retired names. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:06, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • See: "The death and destruction were so terrible that the name Mireille was retired, never to be used to name another typhoon."[12] or "As a result og the devastation and death in the Republic of the Philippines, Super Typhoon Mike's name was retired from the JTWC naming list."[13]. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 03:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ugh, that certainly makes it interesting. However, as I've said, there's no list of the pre-2000 retired names. Going one by one might miss one, so including only those three, for example, would make it less comprehensive than it is now (since it would broaden the scope; currently the scope is strictly defined, and the article complies to that scope). ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Vietnamese news page,[14] has, according to User:DHN, the headline "21 Typhoon Names had been 'Retired'". Also accoring to that user, the article's basic content was that "21 tropical cyclone names, including 18 typhoons and 3 tropical storms, had been "retired" by WMO and JMA because of the excessive damages they caused". In addition, DHN says that the article does not refer to Wikipedia. JTWC names in that list are Karen, Ike, Bess, Thelma, Mike, Mireille, Omar.Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 23:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually came across that site earlier today. At first, I wonder why it doesn't include Sudal, Rananim, or Nabi from the modern ones, as well as either Lucille or Ophelia, as we had them included. However, I believed the site used Wikipedia for its information, and specifically Category:Retired Pacific typhoons. If you notice, those five storms they excluded are the only five retired Pacific typhoons we don't have articles on. Notice, they say 21 names were retired, and at the time that story was published, there were 21 articles in that category. As they bring up the WMO, I did a simple search with the words "Omar" and "Bess", since the former had a link that it was retired and the latter was mentioned twice in the document; one useless result came up. Some of the wording (through the awkward translations) seems similar to the page, as well. I don't particularly feel that a Vietnamese news agency is reliable, when there is no other source, anywhere else, that includes JTWC names as retired. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 02:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Name changes: MANNY replaced MIKE in 1991; MELISSA replaced MIREILLE, TERESA replaced THELMA in 1992, and OSCAR replaced OMAR in 1993."[15] Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 16:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is still only a few names, which are the changes in recent years. Again, as I've said above, I don't feel comfortable including the JTWC names, when there is not a list of names that the JTWC considers retired. Other than that, is there anything else in the article that you object for it becoming a featured list? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is from the back matter in the JTWC's own report. 1991,[16] 1990,[17] 1993,[18] and 1994[19] are similar, all back matters from JTWC reports in their respective years. The earliest two don't mention removals from systems that hadn't happened yet. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 20:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yea, like I said, it is only the changes for a short time period. I feel really uncomfortable adding only a few names, given that there is no list of retired typhoon names while JTWC was naming them. If we can only list four of them, due to sourcing, I'd rather not include them. In fact, those four were in the time period when JMA was actually the warning agency; including JTWC names pre-JMA would be somewhat justified, since there was no official agency, but that's not the case. I'd much rather stick to the official names from the time period when the official warning agency named them. Other than that, is there anything else in the article that you object for it becoming a featured list? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(indent reset) Wikipedia does not deal in what it true; Wikipedia deals in what can be verified as true. If something can be verified as true, and it fits the intuitive scope of a list, then it should be included. I have a compromise. This list should be renamed to List of retired Pacific typhoon names (JMA). This way, its current scope will make sense. The JTWC-era retired names should be put in a different list, List of retired Pacific typhoon names (historical); PAGASA retireds could be given List of retired Pacific typhoon names (PAGASA). This turns one list into three, solves the dispute over whether JTWC names should be included here (by giving them their own list), and provides room for meanings of JMA-era retired names. I'm willing to support this compromise. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 21:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, that's a good idea, as it allows for JTWC and Pagasa names to stay separate. I'll make the moves. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 04:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since the page has been moved, I'll support. Miss Madeline | Talk to Madeline 06:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Weak Object. The WMO Typhoon Committee does not Retire the names in the spring of the following year - The Typhoon Committee generally meets in late November or early December of each year. 1 2 Jason Rees (talk) 21:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ooh, good catch. I fixed it. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Supportok that now looks a lot better and my concerns have now been corrected. Jason Rees (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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