Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was promoted by Dabomb87 22:38, 19 January 2011 [1].
List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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- Nominator(s): RexxS (talk) 21:56, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured list because, as a scuba diver, I feel it meets a need for information, and is also useful for navigation (per WP:LISTPURP). It is somewhat unusual in being a compendium of five lists, but Wikipedia has no other single page that presents the commonest signs and symptoms of diving disorders, which I have categorised by the causal disorder. This is my first FLC nomination, so I am a little unsure of how well it will meet the criteria, but I am available to respond to criticisms on a daily basis. I have participated in discussions on FLC recently, so I have attempted to ensure that the lists meet standards of accessibility and usability, where appropriate. RexxS (talk) 21:56, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Arsenikk (talk) 01:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply] |
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;Comments by Arsenikk
As a fellow diver I much appreciate the list. Listing of signs and symptoms of diving disorders is definitively an encyclopedic topic, and easily something people might look up here, even if they have never and don't plan on diving. However, there are issues before it can receive the star:
Arsenikk (talk) 00:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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- Support 01:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Comments hello RexxS, good to see you here. Some comments.
The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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- Comment: In the section "Oxygen toxicity", the table of the case series symptoms does not help readers understand how likely or significant those symptoms are. The table should be removed. Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Axl. I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't believe anyone knows how likely any particular symptom is - and surely all observed symptoms are significant? Donald's work is still the best experimental evidence we have. Anyway, I've made an alternative formulation of the data at Talk:List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders. Would that table (with a more detailed introduction) be more acceptable? --RexxS (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The list of symptoms for "Arterial gas embolism" shows the frequency of symptoms nicely. If you tell me that the frequency of symptoms for "Oxygen toxicity" is not available, I'll take your word for it. [You are Wikipedia's expert on oxygen toxicity ;-) ] In my opinion, "lip-twitching" (observed at 13 minutes, 14 minutes, etc.) is less significant than "convulsed", but that may be original research. The tables that you added to the talk page are a little better because they give the reader a vague idea of frequency. It would be better to have the symptoms ordered by the frequency rather than the earliest appearance of the symptom (thus lip-twitching, convulsion, nausea, vertigo, etc.). A third column indicating the total number of observed events would also be helpful (thus lip-twitching 18, convulsion 5, etc.). I'm unsure of the difference between "blubbering of the lips" and "lip-twitching", but I don't suppose that Donald clarified that. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The disorders apart from oxygen toxicity, are either common (like narcosis), or have longer-term sequelae (like DCS/AGE), so in many ways are more amenable to study, either as experiments or by collection of reported incidents. With oxygen toxicity, the really significant effect is the convulsion (as you say), which can end in drowning - anything short of that is unlikely to get much mention in an incident report. The other setting for CNS oxygen toxicity is, of course, in a recompression chamber, and many of the symptoms Donald's observed are reported there. Unfortunately, Donald showed early on that the onset of oxygen toxicity is quite different "in the dry" from underwater, so it becomes difficult to try to extrapolate from reports of symptoms during HBOT to the diving scenario. The best we can probably say is that "these are the sort of symptoms that are associated with oxygen toxicity; their onset is unpredictable; and we don't really know how high partial pressures of oxygen will affect any individual." Not terribly helpful, I'm afraid. On the other hand, we can say "Donald observed symptom X on Y occasions, during a particular series of experiments." In fact, you always make me think of better ways of looking at information (for which I'm grateful). I'll put together another table showing the relative frequency observed by Donald, and see if other columns like "earliest onset"/"latest onset" would fit in. The onset of toxicity is actually very interesting as it shows that some individuals succumbed in a few minutes, while others withstood the same conditions for well over an hour. That's the reason why we use such very conservative limits on ppO2 breathed - we don't know who the outliers are, nor what a "safe limit for 99.99% of the population" would be. Anyway, I'll also see if I can dig up some of the data from when the US Navy tried screening their divers - they eventually gave up because the screening provided to be of practically no predictive value. FWIW, Lip-twitching is far less significant than convulsion in its likely outcomes - and that needs no OR; but perversely, lip-twitching is probably the most 'characteristic' symptom short of convulsion, and it is significant because any other disorder is so unlikely to cause it that it confirms the diagnosis for all practical purposes. --RexxS (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Perversely, lip-twitching is significant because any other disorder is so unlikely to cause it that it confirms the diagnosis for all practical purposes." Okay, I take your point. (I approach symptoms from a different point of view.) I'll have a look at your revised table. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The points you make are sufficiently compelling for me to replace the previous table with a summary one, showing relative frequency as well as earliest and latest times of onset – thank you. I've included the latter two columns because the really key problem of oxygen toxicity is the massive variability in time to onset, which makes it so unpredictable. Divers are taught to scrupulously limit their ppO2 to 1.4 bar, even though some individuals may tolerate more than twice that for hours. I've provided a version of the new table with centred numbers and plain row headers at Talk:List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders. All of the tables are equally accessible, but any views on the best visual presentation would be most welcome. --RexxS (talk) 21:42, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Perversely, lip-twitching is significant because any other disorder is so unlikely to cause it that it confirms the diagnosis for all practical purposes." Okay, I take your point. (I approach symptoms from a different point of view.) I'll have a look at your revised table. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The disorders apart from oxygen toxicity, are either common (like narcosis), or have longer-term sequelae (like DCS/AGE), so in many ways are more amenable to study, either as experiments or by collection of reported incidents. With oxygen toxicity, the really significant effect is the convulsion (as you say), which can end in drowning - anything short of that is unlikely to get much mention in an incident report. The other setting for CNS oxygen toxicity is, of course, in a recompression chamber, and many of the symptoms Donald's observed are reported there. Unfortunately, Donald showed early on that the onset of oxygen toxicity is quite different "in the dry" from underwater, so it becomes difficult to try to extrapolate from reports of symptoms during HBOT to the diving scenario. The best we can probably say is that "these are the sort of symptoms that are associated with oxygen toxicity; their onset is unpredictable; and we don't really know how high partial pressures of oxygen will affect any individual." Not terribly helpful, I'm afraid. On the other hand, we can say "Donald observed symptom X on Y occasions, during a particular series of experiments." In fact, you always make me think of better ways of looking at information (for which I'm grateful). I'll put together another table showing the relative frequency observed by Donald, and see if other columns like "earliest onset"/"latest onset" would fit in. The onset of toxicity is actually very interesting as it shows that some individuals succumbed in a few minutes, while others withstood the same conditions for well over an hour. That's the reason why we use such very conservative limits on ppO2 breathed - we don't know who the outliers are, nor what a "safe limit for 99.99% of the population" would be. Anyway, I'll also see if I can dig up some of the data from when the US Navy tried screening their divers - they eventually gave up because the screening provided to be of practically no predictive value. FWIW, Lip-twitching is far less significant than convulsion in its likely outcomes - and that needs no OR; but perversely, lip-twitching is probably the most 'characteristic' symptom short of convulsion, and it is significant because any other disorder is so unlikely to cause it that it confirms the diagnosis for all practical purposes. --RexxS (talk) 23:46, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The list of symptoms for "Arterial gas embolism" shows the frequency of symptoms nicely. If you tell me that the frequency of symptoms for "Oxygen toxicity" is not available, I'll take your word for it. [You are Wikipedia's expert on oxygen toxicity ;-) ] In my opinion, "lip-twitching" (observed at 13 minutes, 14 minutes, etc.) is less significant than "convulsed", but that may be original research. The tables that you added to the talk page are a little better because they give the reader a vague idea of frequency. It would be better to have the symptoms ordered by the frequency rather than the earliest appearance of the symptom (thus lip-twitching, convulsion, nausea, vertigo, etc.). A third column indicating the total number of observed events would also be helpful (thus lip-twitching 18, convulsion 5, etc.). I'm unsure of the difference between "blubbering of the lips" and "lip-twitching", but I don't suppose that Donald clarified that. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks Axl. I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't believe anyone knows how likely any particular symptom is - and surely all observed symptoms are significant? Donald's work is still the best experimental evidence we have. Anyway, I've made an alternative formulation of the data at Talk:List of signs and symptoms of diving disorders. Would that table (with a more detailed introduction) be more acceptable? --RexxS (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. The new table is much better. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:54, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Has Arsenikk been asked to revisit? Dabomb87 (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm always uneasy asking folks to invest more of their time, but I've "pinged" him now. Merry Bishmas and Happy New Year! --RexxS (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Support good work, different from our regular stuff, a welcome change. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Support – Meets FL standards. I did make one small fix a few days ago, but that was all I could find at the time, and there haven't been any more edits since then. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:08, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.