Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Dreamlover (song)/1

Dreamlover (song)

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: delisted due to writer request and prose issues. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 01:22, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this article for reassessment as I believe that the review concluded earlier today failed to address criterion 1(a) of the good article criteria: "the prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct;" Examples of poor prose include:

• Is was written by Carey and Dave Hall, and produced by the former and Walter Afanasieff. Ungrammatical, poor phrasing.
• The song became the first of Carey's transition into the pop market, following the mixed reception to her previous studio effort Emotions (1991), which contained gospel and 1960s soul influences. "became the first of Carey's transition into the pop market"? Ungrammatical
• The song's music video was filmed at upstate New York during August of 1993 by Diane Martel. "at upstate New York"
• The video was complimented by author Chris Nickson for its resemblance to the song's music and arrangement, as well as its carefree vibe Ungrammatical
• Due to the song's strong charting, the video received heavy rotation of several music video channels. Incorrect word choice
• Aside from the seven songs taken from Carey's demo tape, four other tracks were written and produced by the former and an array of famed record producers. weasel word "famed"
• The album was complimented by critics, who called it a mature debut, full of various genre influences ranging from pop, R&B and soul. "various" poor word choice
• While making a strong impact on pop music, Carey became interested in altering her sound, and deviating from pop music for her second studio effort, Emotions (1991) Poor word choice
• During the album's recording, Carey yielded to several different musicians and producers, aside from Walter Afanasieff, the only hold over from her debut.[Very poor prose.
• Emotions contained influences from mostly 1950's, 60's and 70's balladry and gospel, as well as her continued work of R&B and soul. "mostly"?
• Following these events, Columbia decided to try and market Carey in a similar fashion to her debut, only having her produce a more commercial and radio-friendly album. Ungrammatical, unclear, poor prose.
• Carey decided to use the hook in a new and more innovative way then she thought she had ever heard it. Ungrammatical, "then"?
• She claimed having heard the hook being used in several different songs and tunes, but "never like this." Tense
• Additionally, Hall expressed how the song's title was not developed until the end of its production ungrammatical.
• After completing the song, Carey's fiancé at the time, and her soon to be husband, Tommy Mottola came to hear the song in the studio. After giving their take on "Dreamlover", he expressed mixed feelings towards the song, then approaching Walter Afanasieff to add some needed instrumentation and flavor to it. Who is the "they" of "their"?
• On the issue dated August 23, 1993, "Dreamlover" entered the Australian Singles Chart at number forty-one, eventually reaching a peak of number seven and spending a total of twenty-one consecutive weeks inside the chart. On the issue of what?
• On the UK Singles Chart, "Dreamlover" reached at its peak position of number nine, during the week of September 4, 1993. "reached at its peak position of number nine"?
• As the video begins, Carey is seen swimming underwater with clothing, soon gasping for air and climbing into the flower bed above. "with clothing"?
• Following promotion for her seventh studio effort Rainbow, Carey filmed a Fox Broadcasting Company special titled The Mariah Carey Homecoming Special, a mini-concert filmed at Carey's old high school in Huntington, New York airing on December 21, 1999. change of tense
• Similarly, during her two following Daydream and Butterfly World Tours, Carey featured her three female background singers up front on stage with her, while they performed small dance numbers alongside her. Clumsy - ungrammatical
• On Carey's Charmbracelet and The Adventures of Mimi Tours, three male back up dancers were featured on stage, apart from the three female background vocalists behind them. "up dancers"?

These are the outstanding examples of very poor prose. I believe that the article should not have been listed in this poor state. I also believe that full credits for all of the personnel involved in a single release should be included, to ensure broadness of coverage. Nominator and reviewer will be informed. Jezhotwells (talk) 03:43, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

First off, I don't think all of these are problematic. Most of these are in fact grammatically correct. Next, you went and gathered examples from the entire article and came up with this. This is a fairly small list, and I don't think its a big deal for a GA review. I will await the input from other editors if they believe the prose are that poor. I don't.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 03:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The issues might be outstanding, but I feel that they're minor. I think with a good c/e, the article will sound better. Novice7 (talk) 06:57, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – That review was beyond pathetic and what the reviewer wrote was so passable. I agree with Jez that there are prose issues with the article, which the reviewer should have pointed out. This reassessment will benefit thw artcle only. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 07:05, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Novice and I have seemingly fixed the listed issues. And yes I do agree that the review was very sketchy, I wasn't even aware of the passing or reviewing.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 16:16, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• Further comment:

1. • Author Chris Nickson complimented the video's carefree setting ... People are "complimented", not things. Again: The album was complimented by critics, who called it a mature debut, and complimented the incorporation of various musical genres ranging from pop to R&B and soul. And: many of whom complimented its production And: Additionally, while complimenting the hook
   • Following the success of her debut, Columbia allowed her to take more control over her musical departure, enabling her to change her genre infusions, melodies and production What does "musical departure" mean? What does "genre infusion" mean?
   • He explained how the two had solely incorporated the hook, melody and loop over the course of one night. "solely incorporated"? What does this mean?
   • Hall also expressed that the song's title was not developed until the end of its production. "expressed that"? Why not just say "said"?
   • After completing the song, Carey's fiancé at the time, and her soon to be husband, Tommy Mottola came to hear the song in the studio. "fiance" means "soon to be husband" so completely unnecessary.
   • After Carey and Hall played "Dreamlover", Mottola expressed mixed feelings towards the song, then approaching Walter Afanasieff to add some needed instrumentation and flavor to it. "expressed" again. "then approacing"? This is very poor. Just write it clearly in "plain Englush]].
   • According to the music sheet published at Musicnotes.com Are you aware that published sheet music is often very different to the issues recorded version. It is issued by the music publisher to assert their rights, usually transcribed by an employee of the publishing house and often bearing marked diffrences to the record. See "Beatles Complete songbook" as compared to the more recent "Beatles Complete Chord songbook".
   • The song topped eight other Billboard charts, and holds the title as the highest debuting song on Billboard's Pop Songs in history, debuting at number twelve during the week of August 14, 1993. Repetitious phrasing.
   • Three weeks later, the song ascended to the chart's summit, spending six consecutive weeks at the top and a total of twenty-one weeks within the singles chart. "ascended to the chart's summit" You mean it reached number one" Why not say so.
   • As the video begins, Carey is seen swimming underwater with clothing, soon gasping for air and climbing into the flower bed above. The image conjured up here is of the singer underwater with clothing swimming around her! Try using plain English.
   • I made some minor copy-edits. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:24, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

• • Fixed those as well.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 09:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Image – File:Mariah Carey Dreamlover MV.jpg fails WP:NFCC#8 as it doesnot contribute to reader's understanding of the article at all. This should be removed, or replaced with another image which can pass WP:NFCC. Personally, I don't find any instance from the music video acceptable for this. Also ask any admin to remove the old version of the music sample and especially for the single cover art. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• "Dreamlover" began Carey's trend at the time of sampling older tunes as the hooks and backbone of her lead singles --> Doesnot make any sense. You cannot sample an older tune and use it as hook, which is a completely different part of the main composition. Did you mean incorporating the older tunes into the tune and as background music of the song? — Legolas ^(talk2me) 14:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I actually don't understand the difference. The "hook" of an older song was used as the hook for "Dreamlover" and was incorporated into the background melody and instrumentation. Do you not understand this? How would you word that?--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 20:42, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. The article is worded badly in many places although it has improved through recent editing. At a guess I'd say the major contributors don't have English as a first language and the article would benefit from a copyedit from someone with better English. I apologise if that isn't the case. Szzuk (talk) 12:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I take no offense, however, as you feel the wording is so poor, can you highlight some instances? Because I honestly don't see issues in the articles present form.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 20:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

• Have gone through the lead and made a few copy-edits. Some listed here I was unsure how to fix
  • The song was included in the 1999 Mariah Carey Homecoming Special and her appearance on The Today Show. "included in her appearance" maybe performed during her appearance.
  • Additionally, the song was featured [in] the set-lists of most of Carey's succeeding tours, making its debut during the album's accompanying set of concerts, the Music Box Tour and was featured on Carey's compilation albums, Number 1's (1998) and Greatest Hits (2001).Why additionally, what tours was it succeeding, "making its debut during the album's accompanying set of concerts"?, very hard to follow what is being said here.
  • After filming for the video concluded, Carey said that she did not go swimming in the cold water until Martel dived in first. Does this need to be included in the lead?

I think this has enough coverage and references to be a good article, but its prose still needs more work. AIRcorn (talk) 04:19, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Aircorn. I believe I have incorporated the changes into the article. Thanks!--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 12:11, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• Note - Its been over one month, and no one has added any issues or comments. I think its safe to close this re-assessment.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 12:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

  Article is delist as it stands. There have been no article edits in the last month and substantial problems with the prose remain. Szzuk (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

You have yet to point out even one instance of poor wording. If you are going to make comments like that, then have something to back it up with. There have been no edits in over one month because all the issue were addressed.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 19:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

• This one fell of my radar. I have worked through the rest of the article. You might want to check that none of my edits changed the meaning of the sentences.
  • The song is different from any she had previously recorded, as it leans on pop and light R&B influences. Yet the previous section says Emotions was influenced by R&B plus pop and R&B are also used to describe her first album.
  • On the issue dated August 23, 1993 of Kent Music Report, "Dreamlover" entered the Australian Singles Chart at number forty-one, eventually reaching a peak of number seven and spending a total of twenty-one consecutive weeks on the chart. Why does it say "on the issue dated August 23, 1993 of Kent Music Report"?

You might want to leave a note with Jezhotwells talk and see if he believes the article is up to GA standard. AIRcorn (talk) 08:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi Aircorn. Thanks a lot for the cop-edit, I really appreciate your help! As for the first one, I fixed it to mean "anything she recorded on the last album." As for the second one, I don't understand the issue. The Kent Music Report was a weekly record chart in Australia, since the ARIA starting electronically posting data in 1997.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 10:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Can't the sentence just start "Dreamlover" entered the Australian Singles Chart at number forty-one...." and just use the Kent Music Report as a reference? AIRcorn (talk) 12:10, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, sure, I didn't know you meant it that way. As for Jez, I noticed your message before you posted his name lol. I mean, it works with consensus, and he wasn't really reluctant to help or accept the article in any stance, so I'm not sure about approaching him.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 12:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

He's seemed reasonable in the few dealings I have had with him. He certainly knows a lot more about good articles than me. It wouldn't hurt in any case. AIRcorn (talk) 12:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I trust your word, I'll give him a ring.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 12:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment on the prose again so here goes:

• Columbia decided to return Carey to the same genre as her debut album and have her produce a more commercial and radio-friendly record - clumsy and mixed tenses.
• While recording Music Box, Carey began to alter her songwriting style and genre choices, most notably in "Dreamlover". The song is different from anything she had recorded on her previous album, as it leans on pop and light R&B influences. Again inconsistency of tense.
• After having completed the song, Hall complimented Carey's work ethic and form of writing, calling her a "perfectionist" and "very professional." Poor grammar.
• Carey's vocals in the song span over two octaves, from the note of an A3 to the high note of a C5. Surely just "span two octaves"?
• "Dreamlover" holds the title of the highest debuting song on the Billboard Pop Songs chart, entering the chart at number twelve on the week dated August 14, 1993. Th reference supplied suggests that Lady Gaga's "Born This Way" holds that record.
• The video received heavy rotation on several video music channels, which added to the song's chart performance. "which helped the song's chart performance." rather than "which added to the song's chart performance."
• Overall, the prose is still rather disjointed and does not really meet the £reasonably ell written" criterion. Jezhotwells (talk) 23:34, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Note to editors - Honestly, I've taken the decision that I'd like for the article to be de-listed. Its for the best. I mean, the article and me were screwed by the crappy review, so I think its most beneficial for me and the article if its de-listed, and then I can take the necessary time to re-read and re-do the prose, and have a thorough and professional review taken. Its not worth it to keep making fixes that wind up bringing up new issues inadvertently. So, that is my decision, I think its best, and I'll hopefully re-nominate it soon.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 15:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)