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- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • • Most recent review
- Result: Does not meet criteria 2 and 4, as outlined by The ed17. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:02, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
I am seriously surprised that this article passed GA review. It has two major issues. First, the article is frequently far too vague, just saying that things exist without providing any further information on them or even naming examples. Second, the article has a severe bias towards the US. This goes far beyond the examples for things nearly always being American - very frequently the article presents US-specific information as though it applied worldwide. I can go through the article point by point with my criticisms if necessary. Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I believe this GAR was made in bad faith by someone who has went on a one-against-many crusade on articles such as Talk:Monorail and Talk:California genocide. FWIW, Trainsandotherthings has discussed about this offwiki, but I feel like I need to point this out. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 18:13, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I have absolutely no personal vendetta against you, Trainsandotherthings, or anyone involved with the article. I would also point out that neither Monorail or California genocide were cases where I was the only one arguing a specific point.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I checked parts of this article against the sources given and it's really rough. You can see my specific notes in the template fields I added. Overall, I found multiple instances of article info not being covered by the source given, along with instances of sources with limited scopes (e.g. a 2002 newspaper article talking about a single US rail line's potential to reduce highway congestion, or a source about electric rail specifically in Chinese mines) being used to support a sentence that speaks to the entire world. As far as I can tell, these problems extend through much of the article.
- Looking at the open talk page discussion, I'm gathering that there is some friction between the editors involved. I have no knowledge of that, but regardless of the motivation or intent behind the GAR this article has some significant issues that need to be addressed. cc Trainsandotherthings LilianaUwU Epicgenius Ed [talk] [OMT] 18:33, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping @The ed17. From what I can see, I think the crux of the issue is the use of primary sources, as well as sources that fail verification. As explained on the talk page, I did not think it was necessary to include details of global variations in a WP:SUMSTYLE-type article (e.g. for the sentence "...equipped with cabs, also known as driving compartments, where a train driver controls the train's operation", we don't really need to give every possible name for a cab).However - and with apologies to TAOT, who certainly put a lot of effort into this article two years ago - you are definitely right that we shouldn't make generalizations from sources that talk about specific projects. The failed-verification issues do need to be addressed as well; when I made my earlier comment, I was unaware just how many statements failed verification. – Epicgenius (talk) 18:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I maintain that the globalize tag was inappropriate, and I take issue with certain things you've brought up (calling 430 kph vs. 431 kph "failed verification" is absurd, it's rounding). However, I must admit there are issues with the article, a product of how inexperienced I was when I did the rewrite. I continue to dispute the claim that the entire article needs to be rewritten. It is never my goal to create subpar work or articles, and I can't say I'm proud of the current state of the article, though it is massively improved compared to what came before it. I will note that the issues brought up by The ed17 by and large are not directly related to what prompted Eldomtom2 to open the GAR. When I rewrote the article in 2021, I had far more free time than I do now. I will try and address some points, but I cannot guarantee this will happen in a timely manner, and I am also concerned that reliable sources will be rejected for spurious reasons. For instance, I object strongly to the idea that Railway Age is somehow less reliable just because it isn't a scientific journal. It is easy to poke holes in sourcing; finding better sourcing is a much more significant task, and even the article as you see it now required over a dozen hours of research on my part. I must also stress that this should not be held to FAC standards, which I believe in some instances The ed17 has done. There has been no discussion here of which GA criteria the article does not meet, which needs to happen. That way this does not become FAC-lite, and there is a clear route to maintaining GA status. Otherwise, this will become an impossible task. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- On a very quick look, GA criteria that could be worked on include: MOS:OVERSECTION (Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheadings.); parts of WP:LEAD (I note several sentences which contain facts not cited in the body, while some body sections which are fairly heavily weighted are not mentioned in the lead); and, if the above is correct, criterion 4, which requires NPOV. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Trainsandotherthings: To be clear, the major problem I found in the article is its text-source integrity: the numerous places where the information in the article is not backed up by the citation it's tied to. That's fundamental WP:V. I expect that most of the current text can be kept, and that sources can be found to back up the info. I have not said that the article needs to be fundamentally rewritten, I have not disputed the reliability of Railway Age (I removed one source to it only because the other source covered the sentence better), and I don't expect FAC-level sourcing (which is why I'm not bothered e.g. about the frequent use of Ultimate Train, a solid general overview of the topic that I got as a kid and am pretty sure I still have in a box somewhere!). I definitely understand that it's easier to "poke holes in sourcing" than do the actual research, but that doesn't diminish these serious concerns. Ed [talk] [OMT] 01:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Trainsandotherthings - "I will note that the issues brought up by The ed17 by and large are not directly related to what prompted Eldomtom2 to open the GAR." - What precisely do you think the issues that caused me to open the GAR are? If it helps, I can produce a list of NPOV violations in the article.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:18, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Eldomtom2: I'm sure there's some overlap, but it was also my interpretation that they were mostly separate. This is a GAR, so it would indeed help if you could put together a list that we could assess. Ed [talk] [OMT] 16:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Here's a list of some of the issues the article has that I could find from a quick scan. This is not an exhaustive list by any stretch of the imagination.
"Since the 1970s, governments, environmentalists, and train advocates have promoted increased use of trains due to their greater fuel efficiency and lower greenhouse gas emissions compared to other modes of land transport." - not keen on this sentence because it implies that the 1970s onwards saw a sudden surge of support for rail transport, which isn't the case
"Another German inventor, Rudolf Diesel, constructed the first diesel engine in the 1890s, though the potential of his invention to power trains was not realized until decades later" - the first diesel locomotives were built in the early 1910s, so this phrasing is misleading
"Intermodal freight trains, carrying double-stack shipping containers, have since the 1970s generated significant business for railroads and gained market share from trucks." - Significant US bias. Double-stack freight trains are nearly exclusive to America and India and intermodal freight trains do not require the use of double-stacked containers
"Increased use of commuter rail has also been promoted as a means of fighting traffic congestion on highways in urban areas" - I'm fairly certain a lot of people who support increased use of commuter rail want to reduce the usage of cars even when there isn't much congestion
"Trains can be sorted into types based on whether they haul passengers or freight (though mixed trains which haul both exist), by their weight (heavy rail for regular trains, light rail for lighter rapid transit systems), by their speed, and by what form of track they use. Conventional trains operate on two rails, but several other types of track systems are also in use around the world." -this entire paragraph is just a mess that says pretty much nothing
"The railway terminology that is used to describe a train varies between countries. The two primary systems of terminology are International Union of Railways terms in much of the world, and Association of American Railroads terms in North America." - as noted this failed verification, and has obvious issues on its face - what terms are used in East Asia, for instance?
"Early trains could only be stopped by manually applied hand brakes, requiring workers to ride on top of the cars and apply the brakes when the train went downhill" - First, this is inaccurate - steam trains can also be stopped by going into reverse and thus making steam push against the pistons and slow them down. Second, this is another example of severe US bias - many countries had different methods of controlling unbraked trains that did not involve workers riding on the top of the train and applying the handbrakes.
"Train vehicles are linked to one another by various systems of coupling. In much of Europe, India, and South America, trains primarily use buffers and chain couplers. In the rest of the world, Janney couplers are the most popular, with a few local variations persisting (such as Wilson couplers in the former Soviet Union).[31]" - More US bias. It would be better if the article didn't mention Janney couplers at all and just talked about automatic couplers generally.
"but the predominant braking system for trains globally is air brakes, invented in 1869 by George Westinghouse.[failed verification] Air brakes are applied at once to the entire train using air hoses.[32]" - no mention of vacuum brakes, which while never as widespread as air brakes were common enough to deserve a mention
"To prevent collisions or other accidents, trains are often scheduled, and almost always are under the control of train dispatchers.[38] Historically, trains operated based on timetables; most trains (including nearly all passenger trains), continue to operate based on fixed schedules, though freight trains may instead run on an as-needed basis, or when enough freight cars are available to justify running a train.[39]" - only citations are US sources and thus reflects a US idea of freight trains
"Train drivers, also known as engineers, are responsible for operating trains.[43] Conductors are in charge of trains and their cargo, and help passengers on passenger trains.[43] Brakeman, also known as trainmen, were historically responsible for manually applying brakes, though the term is used today to refer to crew members who perform tasks such as operating switches, coupling and uncoupling train cars, and setting handbrakes on equipment.[43] Steam locomotives require a fireman who is responsible for fueling and regulating the locomotive's fire and boiler.[43] On passenger trains, other crew members assist passengers, such as chefs to prepare food, and service attendants to provide food and drinks to passengers. Other passenger train specific duties include passenger car attendants, who assist passengers with boarding and alighting from trains, answer questions, and keep train cars clean, and sleeping car attendants, who perform similar duties in sleeping cars.[43]" - this entire paragraph uses a single US source and is therefore heavily US-biased - for starters, many trains do not have conductors and thus the driver/engieer is "in charge" of the train.
"Trains also need to fit within the loading gauge profile to avoid fouling bridges and lineside infrastructure with this being a potential limiting factor on loads such as intermodal container types that may be carried." - doesn't explicitly explain what loading gauge is
"Modern trains have a very good safety record overall, comparable with air travel.[49]" - source only discusses US
"The vast majority of train-related fatalities, over 90 percent, are due to trespassing on railroad tracks, or collisions with road vehicles at level crossings.[52] Organizations such as Operation Lifesaver have been formed to improve safety awareness at railroad crossings, and governments have also launched ad campaigns. Trains cannot stop quickly when at speed; even an emergency brake application may still require more than a mile of stopping distance. As such, emphasis is on educating motorists to yield to trains at crossings and avoid trespassing.[53]" - First, the figure given for the majority of train fatalities being trespass-related is a US one and thus the figure only applies to the US. Second, this gives the false impression that educational campaigns are the only way to reduce crossing fatalities and does not give any attention to methods such as grade separation
"Diesel locomotives are powered with a diesel engine, which generates electricity to drive traction motors. This is known as a diesel–electric transmission, and is used on almost all diesels" - no mention of other transmissions - diesel-mechanical and diesel-hydraulic transmissions are common enough to deserve a mention
"Train cars, also known as wagons, are unpowered rail vehicles which are typically pulled by locomotives. Many different types exist, specialized to handle various types of cargo. Some common types include boxcars (also known as covered goods wagons) that carry a wide variety of cargo, flatcars (also known as flat wagons) which have flat tops to hold cargo, hopper cars which carry bulk commodities, and tank cars which carry liquids and gases. Examples of more specialized types of train cars include bottle cars which hold molten steel,[63] Schnabel cars which handle very heavy loads, and refrigerator cars which carry perishable goods.[64][65]" - for some reason the "Train car" section solely talks about freight cars
"Long distance passenger trains travel over hundreds or even thousands of miles between cities. The longest passenger train service in the world is Russia's Trans-Siberian Railway between Moscow and Vladivostok, a distance of 9,289 kilometers (5,772 mi).[67] In general, long distance trains may take days to complete their journeys, and stop at dozens of stations along their routes. For many rural communities, they are the only form of public transportation available.[68] Short distance or regional passenger trains have travel times measured in hours or even minutes, as opposed to days. They run more frequently than long distance trains, and are often used by commuters. Short distance passenger trains specifically designed for commuters are known as commuter rail.[69]" - The article completely ignores the existence of trains that cover long distances but have travel times measured in hours - i.e. what is generally called "intercity" rail
""Metro" may also refer to rapid transit that operates at ground level." - this is just a nonsense sentence. The article should just say that "metro" and "rapid transit" mean pretty much the same thing
"Light rail is a catchall term for a variety of systems, which may include characteristics of trams, passenger trains, and rapid transit systems." - another example of the article being so vague as to say absolutely nothing
"Longer freight trains typically operate between classification yards, while local trains provide freight service between yards and individual loading and unloading points along railroad lines.[87]" - US centric again - in some countries unit trains are the sole type of freight train operating--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- It has become clear that I will never be able to meet your expectations for the article. Some of your objections are valid, but I object to many. Your objection to correctly pointing out that janney couplers are the most common worldwide is a clear example of reverse POV pushing, since you want the coupler type used in the majority of the world to be removed from the article entirely. I like how you also implicitly accuse The ed17 of bias considering he just rewrote that sentence yesterday. Nonetheless, it has become apparent that my editing skills are insufficient to meet the expectations of other editors and that it was a folly of me to even try and improve this article. I shouldn't have bothered. So go ahead, delist it, tear up everything I wrote. I don't care anymore. I will be reevaluating and reducing my involvement with much of the project, because quite frankly it isn't enjoyable anymore. I'm sure it will be another 20 years before this article reaches GA, because it is far easier to destroy than to create, and this is coming from a card-carrying deletionist. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't object to mentioning the Janney coupler - suggesting the mention of it could be removed was just a suggestion. What I object to is the article pretending that janney/buffer-and-chain couplers are the only two types of couplers to see widespread usage. Also, "I like how you also implicitly accuse The ed17 of bias considering he just rewrote that sentence yesterday" - I was completely unaware that the sentence was recently rewritten, and furthermore I have absolutely no idea why the fact it was recently rewritten is relevant.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:40, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
The original GA Review
editEldomtom2 was good enough to notify me of this GAR and furthermore I am aware of WP:AGF and fully support this guideline. Nevertheless, I am sure everyone will understand that I feel the need to make a comment on the quality of the review I conducted. Even on a cursory level I would argue that it can easily be seen that I interrogated and analysed the article in a high level of detail in comparison to some Good Article Reviews which are almost nodded through. Secondly, some of the issues being discussed above were discussed as part of that review; for example the issue of it being US-centric. On that point - some of the examples above are not a reason for removing GA status. For example "First, the figure given for the majority of train fatalities being trespass-related is a US one and thus the figure only applies to the US" is a bit disigenious; would a reference and example from another part of the world be preferable? Of course. But that doesn't negate the data completely and it gives an indication that is useful for the topic of the paragraph.
For some of the comments above, I would draw your attention to criteria 3b which states that the article must "stay focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)." Some of the comments (for me as a non-expert) are getting into minutiae on the subject. But I am not interested in getting into a debate on that as I have admitted that I am not an expert on the subject.
Having said all that, I will of course check back in on the final result of this discussion and take whatever learnings I can for GA reviews. Mark83 (talk) 12:47, 16 October 2023 (UTC)