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Wikipedia:Good article review/Archive 17

< Wikipedia:Good article review
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Its contents should be preserved in their current form. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← (Page 18) Good article review (archive) (Page 16) →

To archive an article from the disputes page, check over the dispute, and see if any enforcement is necessary. For instance, if a discussion results in 5 editors for delisting an article and 1 against, then delist the article as you archive it. If a dispute is close, for instance, an approximately even amount of editors taking a side, try to make a new comment rather than archiving, to see whether the dispute should continue. Make sure not to archive active discussions, a good rule is to not archive anything that has a comment less than a week old, unless a resolution has been posted to the discussion. An exception to this rule involves disputes which have a clear outcome in these ways: There is at least an 80 percent majority to do something with an article, there are at least 6 votes, and at least three days have passed since the article was nominated for review.

Archived Disussions

Disneyland Railroad

Result: 6 to 0, delist

Warned by me on the article's talk page regarding lack of inline citations in December 2006. Also has a trivia section. Delist. LuciferMorgan 14:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Champagne (wine region)

Result: 2 to 0, keep

The objection I have to this article is that most of the information contained therin more properly belongs in a different article, that of Champagne (province). The wine region article should be delisted, split and merged into the province article, and renamed something like "Wine making in Champagne", then each article could be renominated for GA as appropriate. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Well Wine making in Champagne would not be an appropriate title since the wine history of the region is a vital component to terroir of the region. I'm not sure how familiar Jayron is with wine but there is much more to the creation of wine then just "wine making" with the people, places and history each adding profound elements that make wine like Champagne truly different from any other sparkling wine. For reference, similar articles along this line would be Napa Valley (wine) and Languedoc wine.To that extent I do think Champagne (wine region) is the most appropriate title and place for this information. After looking over Dr. Cash's comment, I agreed with him that an article titled Champagne (province) should include more details on "the government and politics, demographics of the population, transportation, economy, sports team" etc like an article on a US state like Rhode Island or another French province like Lorraine (region). As the majority contributor to the wine related history and info, I agreed with him that the wine related history and info overwhelmed the provincial article so I went ahead and split the two and renominated the wine region to be evaluated on its own merit. I hope this clarifies things for you. AgneCheese/Wine 00:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, as an FYI, if sections such as the "Military history" are what caught your eye as maybe belonging better in Champagne (province), I will direct your attention to the citation references at the bottom. They are all from wine books since those elements of Champagne history has had a profound affect on the wine industry in that region. Every item in the Champagne (wine region) article is tied back into its influence on the wine. AgneCheese/Wine 00:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tried to bring these concerns to light in my initial GA review, because the article was initially nominated as Champagne, and dealt solely with the wine-making aspects and nothing about the political, geographical, and cultural aspects of the province. The article was then split and renominated, as Champagne (wine region), and I still have some doubts about GA status, but the article was passed by Sandstein before I could do anything, and I decided not to challenge at the time. Dr. Cash 17:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I noted, everything in the article is specific and relevant to the wine region and wine. Is there another area that I should look at or improve to take care of these doubts? AgneCheese/Wine 07:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral for now: Weak lead, doesn't conform to WP:LEAD and includes one sentence paragraph. Some of the information in the History section is probably a bit too detailed for an article about the wine region. Is there a difference between the wine region and the whole of the province, that should be made explicitly clear. IvoShandor 06:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your comments IvoShandor. I worked on the lead to address some of your concerns. As for the history section, if you can point me in the right direction I'll see what I can do. The largest sub section is the "Rivalry with Burgundy" which is only relevant to an article about the wine region and wouldn't have a place in any other article. The "Military Conflict" is by far the smallest sub-section and gives context to the history of the area and the blood that is in soil. The only references in the "Military conflict" section come from wine books because they are pertinent to understanding the terroir. Is there something that you would recommend? AgneCheese/Wine 07:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The blood that is in the soil? Anyway, is there a difference between the wine region and the province? I will take another look at the article and come back with specifics. IvoShandor 07:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
heh, pardon the literary device. :p But that is one aspect of the terroir that is often talked about in regard to the Champagne region. The wine from the area is so different from wines from other areas no matter how finely detailed that a wine producer would try to imitate the condition of the area and the wine making techniques. That innate difference is attributed to the "sense of place" that the Champagne region has and Champenois do talk about the blood that in their soil due to all the battles and conflicts that the area has saw. Terroir is fascinating in that regard. If you are an avid reader (or just the curious sort) a book you may want to consider is James Wilson Terroir. Even if you're not into wine, it's a pretty good read. AgneCheese/Wine 08:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One sentence in this article catches my eye, "From the key market of Paris to the palace of Louis XIV of France at Versailles, proponents of Champagne and Burgundy would spar to get the upper hand.". This wasn't literally fighting, was it? Seems a bit unusual way to word it, its not very direct unless they're literally fighting. Homestarmy 17:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. AgneCheese/Wine 16:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The article is well structured, reasonably well written, and broad in its coverage. The sections that the proposer says should be merged into the article for the modern day province are at least tangentially related to the topic at hand. I rather like the way those relationships are defined in the article. Intro's good after rewrite. Only concern is that I'm still not clear after reading the article if the Champagne (wine region) and the province of Champagne are geographically the same. Could use just a touch of work to clear up that point, as could Champagne (province). MrZaiustalk 12:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. There's a few awkward sentences here and there, but overall it is readable and thorough enough for GA. I was also left wondering if the wine region is the same as the province. --Fang Aili talk 14:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There was mention later in the article but I moved it up to the Lead to try and clarify things. Hopefully that helps. AgneCheese/Wine 01:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Victoria Cross

Result: 6 to 0, delist

Many sections have either none or too few inline citations, especially for an article this length with so many assertions of fact, the few citation needed tags do not represent the number of citations needed here. In addition the structure is poor at best and confusing at worst. The Awards section is poorly composed, consisting of many short and once sentence paragraphs, also citation lacking. Three small sections, theft, annuity and forfeit are too stubby to be their own sections and would better be served by a blanket history section. The last part of the article is a list which should either be merged elsewhere, moved to its own page and summed up in the article or deleted. This is at a first look and if its not convincing enough I will delve furtherIvoShandor 08:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, the Other section is too ambiguously titled to be useful. Just in case it wasn't obvious, Delist. IvoShandor 08:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per nomination concerns. LuciferMorgan 09:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per nom LordHarris 10:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment These are valid concerns, I'll see if I can do anything to remedy the situation. --Xdamrtalk 12:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, most of us here are willing to change our opinions if conditions merit such an action. IvoShandor 13:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted a note on the talk page, but there doesn't seem to be too much of a rush from other editors to get things done. I shan't be able to do too much for the next week or so unfortunately. --Xdamrtalk 00:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per nom. Not enough done in four days. andreasegde 12:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist, Not enough of the article appears to be referenced, while it could be argued that the awards section might possibly be referenced by one of those broad looking references at the bottom, several other sections besides that don't seem to be referenced either. Homestarmy 17:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist - per the nominator. The Hippie 20:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

University of Illinois Observatory

Result: 6 to 0, Keep

This was one of my first GAs, it was passed by Badlydrawnjeff without a review, though he said he reviewed it and would post comments eventually. I wonder if it is up to GA, if you vote delist, please provide a rationale as I will attempt to fix any and all concerns raised during the review. Thanks. IvoShandor 12:37, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Overseas Railroad

Result: 7 to 0, Delist

Warned by me in December 2006 regarding lack of citations on article's talk page. Delist. LuciferMorgan 14:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delist - only a single reference and no inline citations. ChicagoPimp 14:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist - per ChicagoPimp. There are more external links than there are inline citations... The Hippie 19:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delist per above. Teemu08 20:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Does that first image have a Fair Use rationale? All I see is the copyright template, with an ominous TfD hanging over it apparently, isn't there supposed to be a separate rationale when there's a template like that? If so, Speedy Delist for the Fair Use violation. Homestarmy 13:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delist per above. LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 15:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Delist but I don't think it should be speediedBalloonman 17:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Super Chief

Speedy Delisted 4-0

DELISTED - Upon further review of the article's talk page and history I realized that this article was never reviewed. The creator of the article tagged it himself. --LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 19:10, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ALCO FA

Delist 6-0

Has zero citations and is stubby in places. Delist. LuciferMorgan 01:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh now I see the show/hide link, can you change their color, that was too hard to see, they didn't seem to do anything that's why I called them ridiculous, no offense intended, they're actually kind of neat. IvoShandor 15:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I thought might be the problem as it seemed to me to be a bit dark on dark to begin with. As I remember, the background color in those cells used to be a lighter color. I'll see about rectifying at least that much shortly... Slambo (Speak) 15:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can see them now btw. IvoShandor 19:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

William Fuller (football player)

Keep, 4-0

I'm the main contributor to this article; I nominated and it passed two weeks ago. However, I just noticed while browsing around that the user who passed it is a confirmed sockpuppet (see the discussion on GA/R talk page). So I thought it should put it up for review just to be safe. The two notes I'd like to make is that although the article is short it's comprehensive—the player did not have an article until a month ago and the Houston Chronicle's extensive online archives (which I've searched through thoroughly) don't really have much to add to the article (other than brief mentions like Fuller recorded two sacks, Fuller is expected to make the Pro Bowl, Fuller is looking forward to the season etc.). Also there are no pics available for the article on flickr or otherwise, as you can see here, I'm good at finding free pics so if there were some I'd have found them. Quadzilla99 10:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The review is here. Quadzilla99 10:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Note I added a stats table to fill the article a little more. Quadzilla99 10:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is the exact kind of article GA was intended for. It is well written, broad, and well referenced. I see no reason not to keep it. On fix, which I made myself, was to change NFL career to Pro Career. Otherwise, it looks fine. GAs cannot be held up for lack of pics, and it looks NPOV and stable enough. I say keep.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Neutral (for now): A few comments follow.
  • I would say it is worth mentioning that he is tied for the 20th spot on the all time sack leaders list.
Done, I put it down by his stats table.
  • Any hall of fame consideration here? What are his chances, surely someone must have written something about that.
No, the Hall of Fame is tough in football. Fuller made four Pro Bowls so he has no chance, Harry Carson made nine Pro Bowls and he wasn't elected until his thirteenth or fourteenth try.
  • How did his stats compare with other players? Was he ever amongst league leaders in key statistics for defensive players?
If you're absolutely sure . . . IvoShandor 06:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to find some info. Most of the best sites (databasefootball, pro-football-reference.com, NFL.com etc.) don't keep lists of season sack leaders.
  • Actually, the best stat site, JT-SW, does keep this sort of information. this page lists the sack leaders for 1990. Fuller is way down on the list for that year. This page here lists stats by year for any stat that was officially kept by the NFL. Fuller played his entire career in the "sacks" era (post-1982) so we should be able to extrapolate that information for any year of his career. I am surprised more football articles here DON'T use JT-SW for their football stats; other sites like Pro-Football-Reference only list offensive skill positions and are sketchy otherwise, JT-SW has every player to appear in a game since 1920.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is post '96 the only years with contract info available? Because as is it kind of reads like, "this guy got a big contract and then didn't perform," mostly due to the reast of the sentence.
  • After the 1996 season Fuller signed a two year $5.6 million dollar contract with the San Diego Chargers, while there his production steeply declined.
  • That's the sentence I singled out above, it seems to imply some sort of connection or seems to be trying to make a point of some sort.
I definitely didn't mean to imply that. I added a note about an earlier contract he signed. Now it should just appear as though I'm mentioning that contract to be consistent. I'll see if I can find some more info, he was never a highly publicized player for whatever reason. He seems to have played in several players shadows. Like I said he didn't have an article until a month ago. He replaced Reggie White in Philadelphia and followed this guy (the one in the pic) as a pass rusher at UNC so that probably didn't help either.
Cool, I am sure you didn't. IvoShandor 06:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know anything about his other college seasons at all? Any bowl game appearances?
Not really in terms of individual accomplishments. As I mentioned there's not much info on him I can find. I mentioned that the team made three bowl games.
  • This site (look down towards bottom) lists UNC's single season sack and tackle leaders. Fuller features prominently on the list. Also, this site refers to Fullers induction into the Virgina Sports Hall of Fame, and has some good superlatives about his college and pro career. this site anounces his placement on the 50th anniversary ACC team. Those should help some.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:09, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thanks for all the sources. I already had the Virginia Sports Hall of Fame one I think I mentioned all the relevant stuff from in there (could be wrong). I'll try to add some info in the next few days. I'm impressed you found that stuff so easily I was struggling to find anything. Quadzilla99 02:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
cool. Don't forget the JT-SW links I have above. Honestly, JT-SW is the best football stats site out there. I use it for all of my football articles.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A couple things are mentioned in the lead but nowhere else in the main body of the text, as the lead should be a summary of the article they should appear elsewhere as well.
  • His All American honors
  • His position (This is in the infobox which I guess is probably ok.)
Comment His All-America honors are mentioned in the college section, as is the fact that he was a defensive lineman I could be more specific I guess. Quadzilla99 21:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I read right over it, twice. Sorry, I do that sometimes when I am in a hurry. IvoShandor 03:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty much fine other than that, some of the above should definitely be addressed I think. IvoShandor 19:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I added some info, I'll look it over again in the next few days, see if I can add some more. Quadzilla99 13:24, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Washington streetcars

No consensus Keep=3, delist=4

Warned by me on the article's talk page in December 2006 regarding lack of citations etc. Delist. LuciferMorgan 16:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I still think it should be delisted as the article is too listy. LuciferMorgan 23:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Delist Teemu08 22:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Speedy Delist: per four month warning. The article is also badly structured, listy in places, and the aforementioned stub sections aren't helpful either. IvoShandor 06:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've been working on a complete re-write. I'm not quite done, but I'm replacing the present version with what I have now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cranor (talk • contribs)
  • Keep Following Cranor's work, the argument listed against in the nom is now addressed with 63 footnote numbers, and many of them are cited multiple times (one is even cited more than 30 times). Slambo (Speak) 17:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The massive improvements make it hard for me to see anything that stands out against GA status in this article. Homestarmy 18:12, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral: Can't see going from Speedy Delist to Keep, the article is still listy, and not just in the lists, there are so many section breaks and bolded words I lose track of what the article is about. IvoShandor 15:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist Yea it's well referenced but let's start with the problems.
    • The article doesn't mention the title of the article - Washington, D.C. streetcars should be de-linked and bolded.
  Done Quadzilla99 12:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The lead is way too small for an article this size
    • Table of contents is too big
    • I see refs before punctuation, refs with spaces
    • Dates are'nt formatted correctly - July 13, 1868 should be July 13, 1868
  Done Quadzilla99 12:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Only text in the lead should be bolded, there's text in almost every section bolded
    • About 20 external jumps
    • Article contains lots of one sentence paragraphs
    • External links section should be at the end of the article
  Done Quadzilla99 12:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The See Also section comes before notes
  Done Quadzilla99 12:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So Yea, this article in no-way should ever become a good article unless something is done. M3tal H3ad 11:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delist Solid article. I struck my above comment and changed to weak, still needs a little work. I just did some significant work on it to help out and checked off some of the above reviewers cocnerns. Metal Head was correct in most of his assessments, although I disagree with some. I would think it's alright to have portions of the title linked sometimes see Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, so you don't have to be to repetitive and mention them again in the next sentence, I did fix that though anyway (I know what the MoS says no need to repeat it). Never had a problem with large TOC's, I went through and fixed the dates in the text (not in the references due to time/interest level), I think redirects are often bolded and everything bolded is in fact a redirect, although the redirects should go to the exact section and not to the top of the article, fixed the layout issues (although I was forced to tag the link farm of an EL section), the main problem remaining for me is the external jumps those really need to go. Quadzilla99 12:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work but i still stand by my decision. This "Paragraph" 'Colorado Avenue Terminal on 14th Street, now a Metrobus stop' has no full-stop, as does 'The Median on Penn, built in 1903 [3]' And these sentences don't make much sense
    • Public transportation began in Washington, D.C. almost as soon as the city was founded. When was this?
    • Why is something so simple like 'day' wikilinked
    • but service ended soon after it began. Why did it end?
    • After the Herdic Company went under, awkward use of "went under" what about bankrupt or disbanded, whatever happened
    • Much of the article reads like "Went along 10th street and U, but changed to U and 11 street soon after. When the new company came in it went to 13th street etc etc. I'm not sure what you mean by the title, but the example you provided had the title of the game bolded, this didn't. M3tal H3ad 13:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delist however, rework could bring this to GA. article has good breadth and depth of content, but needs widespread effort. prose is listy and rambling in places, excessive section breaks, bolded words, and general formatting problems occur throughout. top suggestion: you may want to consider creating stub articles for sections of low notability, and then place a see also section header/footer on the section. this would improve readability, particuarly for sections of individual companies or operations. single bullet lines in cars and barnshops needs complete rework, or creation of a stub article, or a list. ChicagoPimp 16:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2007 Texas Longhorn football team

Status quo (keep as a fail): 4-1

This article has been listed as a GA candidate for a month. Today, an editor failed the article without a review. Their reason was that more information will become available at some point in the future, so they failed the article.

The GA criteria states

5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.

This article meets that criteria because it is stable.

The idea that more information will become available in the future is not a reason to fail it now. If the article makes GA now and then becomes unstable later, it can be delisted later. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and it is improper to fail this article on the basis of something that might happen in the future.

As of today, the article is informative, and I think it passes all the GA criteria. I ask that the article be given its GA review based upon what the article is today and what is known today about the topic. Johntex\talk 16:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I am the editor who failed this. I hesitated, because as Johntex says the GA criteria do not make it absolutely clear that the reason I gave for failing it was legitimate. I was also influenced by this comment of Raul654's, on FAC talk, indicating what the original FA criterion of stability was intended to govern. Of course he's talking about FAC, but the concern seems to arise for GA too.
I'm not going to vote to support or reverse my fail; either outcome seems reasonable. However, I'd also like to see discussion of the GA stability criterion and what the boundaries are. Raul654 made it clear that he judges the Virginia Tech massacre article to be unstable. What counts as unstable for GA? Mike Christie (talk) 16:24, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Hi Mike, thank you very much for your note. As you say, it will be good to talk this out a little and see what the consensus is.
I am of the opinion that if an article is stable today but might change in the future, that we should review it on the basis of what it is today. Otherwise, we may as well delist Mars and Pluto and for that matter we may as well take away FA from Solar System. We will undoubtably learn more about these topics in the future and in fact we have probes at or on the way to Mars and Pluto right now. I admit this is not a perfect analogy, but I do think it helps to illustrate what an article should be judged for what it is today, and for what is happening to the article today.
I think the "stability" criteria is more about whether the article is changing too fast for the GA reviewer to decide what version to review, and whether (once reviewed) the article will just immediately change to fall out of GA standard. That is not likely to happen here for several months at a minimum.
In the best case, GA standards will be maintained in this article through the whole season. It really only takes one or two well-written updates a week. At worst case, the article could be delisted if/when it no longer makes the criteria.
Anyway, thanks for your note and your opinion. I don't take it personally that you failed it, and I am glad you don't take it personally that I asked for a review. Johntex\talk 16:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Hi John, no hard feelings I hope. I am on the fence about these types of articles. It is hard to say they will be stable when off-season develops are as frequent as they are in football. I think I am going to remain neutral on this one. I don't think the reviewer was totally wrong, this is kind of a gray area. We had a similar discussion concerning Spore, an unreleased video game, I believe its failure was endorsed. IvoShandor 16:58, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, on stability. A science article (or any academic type article) isn't unstable because of new discoveries, mainly because in the academic world, new discoveries don't just flood the publications. They are carefully reviewed as opposed to being released at a rate that someone documenting the topic and reviewing said documentation for certain criteria wouldn't be able to keep up with it. With Spore, above that was the case, it couldn't be kept up with because there was ever changing speculation about the release date. With an article about a future football season, its hard to say. They have a spring game of some sort, certainly, when do they start practice? July? What happens before that? Camps? Something to be sure. Like I say this is hard to judge but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibilities that an article mostly about a topic that hasn't really taken place or come together yet could be considered unstable. IvoShandor 17:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - the spring practices and spring scrimmage is done. Nothing happens during the summer unless some unexpected event happens. Practices resume in August. Johntex\talk 01:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • endorse fail At issue here is the problem that the article is largely incomplete. It's not like 1 or 2 changes are expected in the future, as new information arises. The 2007 season has not even been played yet. This article can ONLY contain speculation and very little else. Give it 9 months. Wikipedia is in no rush. Look, the Longhorns have played HOW many seasons? If it is THAT important to the nom to get a Longhorn article to GA status, work on improving one for which the information IS complete. Looking at GA and FA, there are no other Longhorn season articles that have been elevated. Why not work on the 2006 season or any other? Give this one time, and in January, when the season is done, renominate it to GA status.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, the article contains NO speculation. The article contains only known, published, verifiable information about the scheduled games and historical information about these teams involved; such as their starting rankigns. Johntex\talk 18:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse fail Ordinarily, i'd probably support this kind of article because changes would likely come incrementally as the season progresses, however, in this case, the actual team itself isn't even known, since there's no roster. If the roster was extant, (Even just the names of the players, positions I could understand not being known yet until very close to game time) then I think it would be compleate enough to count as sufficiently broad, but otherwise, well, its not really your fault, but it just doesn't seem to cover everything that an article on a sports team should cover. Get that roster and reference it to the level of the rest of the article, and i'd support this for GA status, even if the season is upcoming. Homestarmy 17:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The roster is an interesting point. It is generally released very near to the start of the season so I do have to wait a bit on that. Johntex\talk 18:12, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like it noted on record that whatever the FAC director says in no way influences GA. Is he the GA director? No he is not. So please don't go quoting that person as if it holds extra weight to the argument. Furthermore, comparing this article to Virginia Tech Massacre is the dullest thing I've heard. Having said that, I think the article should be GAC'd after the season ends. LuciferMorgan 12:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse Fail - per comments above, this article is intended to provide coverage of future events, so "completeness" rather than "stability" is an issue. however, the historical content is strong, the prose is decent, and references abound - which provides the article an excellent base from which to expand. this article should receive substantial GA support at the end of the season. if GA before the season is the goal, i would support the article with the addition of (1) a well referenced roster list, (2) a section about any possible records that could be broken this season, and (3a) thorough copy editing to modify american sports related terms such as "face off" to "compete" and (3b) formalize phrases such as "up I-35" to "north on I-35". ChicagoPimp 03:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mathematics Articles

Speedy keep per WP:SNOW

After sweeping the maththematics section I have concluded that the following articles should be delisted either due to lack of references or having a large amount of jargon.

Any further comments or objections are welcome. Tarret 01:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Procedure has not been followed here. In particular (1) specific problems with these articles have not been raised, and (2) comments requesting improvement for specific problems have not been left on the page's discussion pages (at least for the more than one of these pages on my own watch list). —David Eppstein 02:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should be more specific. For each article, say what the problem is and give some examples illustrating the problem. Also, follow standard procedure (see top of this page) so that the editors of the pages are made aware of your complaint. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • PS: Not sure why I didn't get an edit conflict, but I hadn't read David's comment when writing my comment, which is why it seems I'm just repeating what he says. In my comment, you refers to Tarret. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep all for procedural reasons and archive this discussion. If objections exist about these articles, they should be individually nominated, with specific objections for each. "I don't understand them" is not an actionable objection.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep all - I completely agree with Jayron32. --LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 06:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep all per above. Quadzilla99 06:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think nominating a load in one review makes things confusing. Could we nominate them individually over time maybe? LuciferMorgan 08:08, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Agree with Jayron32 - if review is required, each article should be individually nominated. Also, nominator does not seem to have mentioned this nomination on any of the articles' talk pages. Gandalf61 13:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Characters in Devil May Cry

Dead discussion. No clear consensus to take any action

First of all as the lead says, this article is a list which is not accepted at GA. This list is also to in-universe and therefore fails WP:WAF. Tarret 19:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Few things from the reviewer to counter those points:
    • I removed the outdated "list" sentence. It's not a list, and Wikipedia editors need to understand that articles with numerous sections aren't lists like "List of birds".
    • This article is not completely from an in-universe perspective. I forced the writers to add a section on concept and creation before I'd pass the article. Second, many subsections contain out of universe information, such as voice actors and other related development information. Third, the lead clearly establishes the topic as fiction and introduces the characters and their designer. Fourth, the section often cites the title of each game in regard to summarizing plot points, instead of ingoring where it came from. As someone who has helped promote the concept and craft it, I can say with certainty that out of universe does not mean saying the word "fictional" every sentence; it means finding the most real-life material available for a topic and covering it in addition to the in-universe points.
    • Although I'd prefer to see more details about cultural impact, the sources have been reaped enough to comply with the MoS subcriterion. If this were going for FA (which I don't recommend, given the limitations), I'd expect to see (a lot more) real-world information, better prose, and complete merges; however, this is GA level, and there is a difference.

— Deckiller 20:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article was a list, the header just stayed there, now it's a profile pages for secondary characters. Second the article isn't in-universe, it always refers to the characters as such by addin lines such as "In Devil May Cry mythology...". -凶 20:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Well the article looks okay, it has issues though starting with the opening sentence. The title wasn't bolded or wikilinked (fixed), and "set in the modern day" is just awkward. Even though I'm not going to vote as I don't really know the subject and did not read the whole thing, I looked it over enough to pick up a few points:
  • "As the series progresses it is eventualy revealed that" eventually is redundant.
  • I'm not an expert in wrting fictional entries but, when talking about voicing of the characters it might be wise to say "the character is voiced by [x]" instead of "Dante is voiced by [x]" or "she is voiced by" on occasion, this will help with the perspective and it also makes it more formal.
  • A lot of people don't like IMDb as a ref.
  • I don't know anything about Video games so maybe a little background about at least what years the games range from. Also would be a good way to expand to the lead, "Since 1999, there have been five games in the series..." etc.
  • "Ref 16 is blank." Quadzilla99 19:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

T. D. Judah

Result: 6 to 0, delist

Warned by me in December 2006 on the article's talk page regarding lack of inline citations. Delist. LuciferMorgan 00:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Holocaust

Result: Keep=4, delist=4, however the article was ultimately delisted for plagarism and stability problems

This article was delisted by Alexsanderson83 with the accompanying edit summary: removed 'The Holocaust' as article does not address Ownership of the Holocaust. I found this insuffcient, notified the user, reverted the changes and listed the article here. I have invited Alex to explain why this article should be delisted here. IvoShandor 12:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article fails to address a key issue. Ownership of the Holocaust. The article in its present form does not address this issue at all. This fact means it to be in my opinion B Class with need of a major overhaul. It would be a good article to be featured were it brought up to standard due to the subject matter.

The article intimates the Holocaust to be a mainly Jewish event. Both the cultural and historical understanding can differ from this position. The article fails to address the two two key positions on the subject, deciding it to be a Jewish tradegy and acknowledging that others died. Motive versus mechanics argument not even addressed. Alexsanderson83 12:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment User:Londo06 had repeatedly made this claim on the talk page but when asked to provide sources, has failed to give any evidence whatever for a scholarly debate on Ownership (apparently it has to have a capital O). User:Alexsanderson83 has not contributed to this debate, nor has he sought to add anything relevant. We need evidence that "Ownership" is a real issue of debate before adding it. Instant deletion from GA staus on a whim of a single editor is surely not acceptable. Paul B 13:03, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: I don't know what you mean by ownership, that is definitely not the right terminology. Secondly the whole second paragraph of the lead is devoted to what you claim to be absent, Alex's assertions are requiring the citations from what I can see. IvoShandor 13:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ownership is the academic term referring to which mutually exclusive understanding of the term 'The Holocaust' to which one is referring. The motive to kill, or the executions themselves in simple terms. Alexsanderson83 13:13, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I just finished reading the talk page. I was unfamiliar with the term, what a bizarre choice of word. IvoShandor 13:15, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Debate over whether or not to include one concept (still somewhat poorly defined in the Talk page) does not negate the fact that the article is stable, neutral, well written, broad based, etc. I don't see how the aforementioned concept keeps this article from meeting good article criteria, especially given the content that IvoShandor pointed out. MrZaiustalk 13:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The second paragraph is there, but the assertion that 'The Holocaust' is ... the killing of approximately six million European Jews. This is offensive to many. The article not fully addressing that it is understood by many throughout the world both academically and culturally as the murders by the Nazis in the camps. (I don't include the likes of Iranian Presidents and other anti-semites). Following the opening up of Soviet files and British declassification of files, it is believed that the mechanics over the motives is the most prevalently held position in the academic community. Alexsanderson83 13:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But not by others. Personally, I lean towards a more inclusive definition, but, again, where does the article fall short under WP:WIAGA? MrZaiustalk 13:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This really sounds like a content dispute more than any reason it doesn't meet the GA criteria, GAs are not FAs and not subject to the stringent requirements there. The article does indeed consistently talk about other groups who were murdered. That is suffcient for GA, IMO. IvoShandor 13:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
User:Alexandserson83 repeats almost word-for-word Londo06's bizarre assertions that this mysterious Ownership debate has emerged "following the opening up of Soviet files and British declassification of files". I fail to see the relevance of these uspecified files, which has never been explained by Londo06. I suspect sockpuppetry. Paul B 13:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would think it would be more like the facts being out there in the real world. Themes being discussed by academics and social commentators alike. The ownership theme is perhaps the major debate of the recent past. I would suggest reading works by the likes of Laurence Rees on Auschwitz. Also accept that the Soviet Union is gone and that files allowed much work on the Nazi atrocities to be done and that the British declassify information in line with the law. This is common knowledge.Alexsanderson83 13:33, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The intricate details of specific 60 year old government documents of the former Soviet Union and the United Kingdom are hardly "common knowledge". Give links to the papers and explanations of why they make the current two paragraph def invalid on the article's talk page, not here. The article does include fairly extensive coverage of non-Jews killed during the Holocaust. That it lacks it in the opening sentence is not grounds for removing it from the Good Article list. MrZaiustalk 13:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This is a small, fringe issue and its lack of inclusion does NOT make this delistable. If the person who is argueing that the information should be included, and they have references, they are invited to be bold and add it themselves. However, this small, fringe, accademic issue does not seem to make the article not a Good Article. There is nothing wrong with the article as-is. Keep it. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peer Review needed The issue of where people were killed is an issue. If you were killed in camp, not being Jewish you are included, but are deemed a 2nd class victim. If you are a Jew killed outside the camps then there are people who say that murder is part of the Holocaust. And a Communist under the same circumstances is not.
    • I thought this was the only argument about the Holocaust. Is it the Final Solution or the Holocaust. The article seems to be confusing the two. Could be me, I am neither Jewish or a Professor, but to me THE Holocaust was the organised killings in the camps. 90.192.37.69 19:14, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Second class victim? Okay this discussion needs to relate to the GA review, not semantics or content disputes, this isn't a peer review process. We are here to decide if this article meets the GA criteria, no one yet has given any reason that it doesn't, please try to stay on topic. IvoShandor 19:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per comments for keep and I think its still at GA - references seem ok. Though the article could do with a trim. Needs a good editor and a pair of scissors... LordHarris 00:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*keep per above--Sefringle 06:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I've delisted this article for a number of reasons, mostly because of very poor writing, but also because a large section of it had been plagiarized from the Encyclopaedia Britannica. The editor who did that has made another 90 edits, so far unidentified, so there may be other plagiarism in it. It certainly shouldn't have GA status at the moment. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist Increadibly unstable, and this is just the diff for like a day: [1]. Going back several other days I see an increadibly long list of edits by SlimVirgin, but I think this one diff speaks for itself, no need to look farther into it. Homestarmy 21:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Phil Simms

Nomination for delisting: This article has several issues. Unsourced claims, wikification does not meat MOS standards, grammar wrong in places, single image is not a good one. Article does not appear to have been reviewed, only tag updated with oldid. LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 22:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weak delist The lack of review is disturbing, but I find this one has only a few issues. The image is actually accompanying a critical analysis of the event (though the event probably doesn't deserve that level of coverage in this article, as excessively trivial). The ONLY fact I see uncited is the Senate Race information, which should obviously be referenced if kept. It could use to be expanded some with info on his college career. I don't see any rampant grammar errors, but I am not that great of a grammarian. It is delistable, but also easily fixable. If it remains unfixed, than a delist is definately in order. Also, LaraLove, you need to leave a note on the talk page of the article with specific reasons (i.e. what needs fixing to avoid a delisting) AND a link to GA/R so that the article's custodians will know about this discussion.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Okay first off I was the one who did the work on the article and nominated it, I was surprised that it got such a quick and cursory passing, so I don't really have a problem with it being here. More importantly however, Lara learn how to do things here; when you put an article on GA/R you must leave a note on the article's talk page. Also, it meets all MoS standards, please point out grammatical errors, and images are not a requirement for GA if they are not available. This is the reviewer btw:[2] and although you should leave a review when passing it's not technically required. Quadzilla99 05:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • My apologies on not bringing it to the talk page, but please assume good faith. It was my intention to do so. I left a message with the reviewer and started a list of issues on the article talk page when I was pulled away from the computer for the evening. The issues are not great, but I feel like it should have been reviewed with notes and put on hold. Maybe I take this process too seriously and give too thorough reviews, but I feel it's important that GAs be as good as they possibly can be... and to accomplish that, I feel GA reviews need to be as good as the reviewer can give. I'll complete the list on the talk page and submit it shortly. LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 06:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update Okay I added some info on his college career. Quadzilla99 06:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Okay I addressed the concerns Lara had, except for one, on the article's talk page. Quadzilla99 10:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Although there's a few instances of language I see that aren't necessarily as neutral as they could be, some of it may be debateable, and the article certainly has the citations to back itself up for the most part. Somebody might of not passed it at first in the proper manner, but I don't think it matters much now that its here and whatever problems it had seem to of been taken care of anyway. Homestarmy 16:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Issues Resolved: I reviewed the article and left a detailed list of needed corrections. Quadzilla immediately made all necessary corrections and has brought the article up to GA standards. --LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 17:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merrimack River

Result: Delist by a vote of 10-0 Though only on page for 2 days, WP:SNOW applies.

Nominate for delisting per the following problems:

  • Criteria 2: Insufficient referencing. This article makes many claims, which are not linked directly to the source of those claims via inline citations. There are very few references at ALL.
  • Criteria 3: Insufficiently broad. Many aspects of the Merrimack River are missing, such as history as an industrial center, ecology, tributaries. It needs some expanding before it achieves this aspect of GA.

The article should be delisted for the above reasons.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:02, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

State Route 1002 (Lehigh County, Pennsylvania)

Result: 5 to 1, delist

Many were impressed with the article. The article cites 29 references and an editor failed it becuase of two or 3 minor problems. The editor treated the review like a WP:FAC. The article also has a map and a coulple of images.

Note to reviewers: read my comments on the talk page before commenting. --NE2 22:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comments that should be said if the article were nom for FA status. -- JA10 T · C 22:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse fail. The first criteria for a good article is that it be well written with correct grammar. Combined with some possible factual inaccuracies, this article isn't quite up to snuff. IMHO, a better course of action would have been to place the nomination on hold instead of outright failure, but there's nothing stopping the article from being fixed and renominated later. -- NORTH talk 22:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse fail.As I agree the article does not meet GA. However I agree with NorthEnglish above - the articles failings may have been fixed within seven days and placing the article on hold would havebeen a better action.LordHarris 10:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh fine keep the fail, next time please help me out with the peer review instead of failing it like that. One person provided an advice for me and it had nothing to do with what NE2 mentioned at the peer review. -- JA10 T · C 11:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse the fail. I agree with the assessment that the grammar needs a major overhaul. This is a pretty good article (no pun intended) and is on the path to become a Good Article(TM) but there are some glaring problems which need to be fixed before it can pass a GAC. Someone needs to copyedit the article and then, when they have fixed the other issues that have been covered by my colleagues above, resubmit for a GAC. Best, --Valley2city₪‽ 17:00, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse fail. Grammar needs a major overhaul, all citation needed tags need to be resolved, all redline links need to have stubs created. ChicagoPimp 17:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse fail As a roadgeek myself, I would like to see this article GA-worthy, but it isn't there yet. While GA does not demand brilliant prose, it does demand a well written article, which is free from gramatical issues, and this article is rife with numerous gramatical errors, mostly run-on sentances. Also, it should be noted that despite its level of referencing, which is extensive, there are still unresolved {{fact}} tags that need fixing.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 18:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Super Smash Bros.

Result: 5-1 in favor of delisting, which is the status quo

Passed by admins, but then came under attack by another. Many issues were adressed and sections added and referanced. Review and relist Quatreryukami 15:51, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Endorse delisting This article has not substantially changed since it was delisted. There are also a full list of fixes listed on the talk page that have not been addressed. Please renominate it at WP:GAC for a full formal review when the fixes have been addressed. It should be noted the one that passed the article, nor the one who delisted it were admins. Not that that matters, but admins are not involved in this process, at least insofar as this process is not part of their admin duties. We're all just regular editors here.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 00:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse delisting I'm the one who delisted it, and rightly so. There are 4 failed criteira in this article (there are 6 criteria in total). It is not "well written" because it fails Wikipedia:Embedded list. It is not "verifiable" because there is 1 reference in the gameplay section, and no references in the character and stage sections. It is not "broad in its coverage" because the development section is tiny, and the reception section is too small. Lastly, Image:N64_Super_Smash_Bros.jpg does not have a source. I could go in-depth, but these are simply examples of the failed criteria. --Teggles 04:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The main image needs a license, it seems to have disappeared. --Nehrams2020 19:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse delisting Article is too listy. LuciferMorgan 19:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist per above. Quadzilla99 20:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I was the one who dropped a bunch of suggestions before the delisting happened, but had no plans to delist it. Since the consensus is to remove the article as a GA, I will not fight it, at least while there are outstanding issues.--Clyde (talk) 02:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • ARG! While there only may be one ref in gameplay section, there are multiple other references. And OBVIOUSLY there were NOT four failed criteria! Look at the original nom. Most of the gripes have been adressed. BUT As the all powerful consensus rules, don't matter my opinion anyway, as I nomed it.
  • My deletion endorsement on this page explains how and why you failed four criteria, so "obviously" there were... I'm having difficulties understanding your logic. --Teggles 03:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now, returning to my usual civility, I will adress the issue in the gameplay section ASAP. Quatreryukami 02:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Raëlian Church

Result: 1-1 = no consensus. Maintain status quo (fail)

The Raëlian Church article has failed Good Article nomination twice in two days before and after the following edits have been made to the article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ra%C3%ABlian_Church&diff=127161806&oldid=126448977

They were done in good faith and the intention was to address the specifics of the failed nomination:

Second Failed Nomination

Talk:Raëlian_Church#Failed_GA_Review

  • Well written:The reality is the prose is clunky, like it was translated from some other language using a bot and dropped here. (Examples:"According to the History of Raëlism, in December 13, 1973 began the upbringing for what would become the Raëlian Church," and "Starting from that year, the International Raelian Movement was spreading the word about the contents in the first two Raëlian books concerning what they believe to be a restoration of meaning of biblical text, an update on the future of the Christian Church,[1] and the philosophy and directives Yahweh Elohim taught Rael in second set of CE-5 encounters," and "Each day begins with a meditation mainly at around 9:00 A.m. local time," and "Raelians have typed multiple tort claims concerning extortion, breach of contract, replevin, conversion, gross negligence, false light invasion of privacy, defamation, and tortuous interference in business affairs.") A major rewrite is required here.
  • Sources: The sources are still largely from the church itself or dubious. (Example: "In March 27, 2000, Motorsport.com stated that Raelian membership was 50,000.")
  • Neutral: It continues to maintain a tone of approval for the church (POV) and downplays criticism of the church. Yes, it does use the word "cult," but it reads like a defense of the church, not an encyclopedia. Also, the pedantic description of some aspects is not appropriate. (Examples: "As a rule, first-time seminarists, students, and people under the age of 25 are exempted from paying the basic seminar fee, which is responsible for covering the costs of running the Raëlian seminars. Only people who are returning or are of age are required to cover these costs," and "These Raëlian gatherings have over time taken place in areas such as hotels in Japan, Europe, and Thailand, gardens in Canada, hotels and deserts of Nevada, campgrounds in Oceania, and meeting halls in Africa.")

For these reasons, I am confidently failing this article for a second time. You may seek a review of this decision if you disagree. Argos'Dad 04:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Summary

Several sources by the Raelian Movement have been removed, including those from the "Size" section. The sentences pointed out under "Well Written:" which were not in the lead have been removed as well. As for the lead, it has been made more concise, simple English, though I admit, perhaps not simple enough. The sentences under "Neutral:" were removed rather than reworded. For these reasons and their associated edits, I request a review of this article and the second failed nomination.Kmarinas86 01:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse Fail Looking over the article I can see several examples; references and prose that needs work. Looking at the second review I agree with ArgosDad for his reasons on failing the article. However on the third fail I do acknowledge that perhaps ArgosDad should outline all of his continued reasons for failing the article rather than suggesting a peer review as an alternative. However despite this I believe the article is not GA and requires a series of edits to improve. I will now discuss some points here.

In line with ArgosDads comments there are several sections where the prose is chunky and does not flow. These need to be rewritten:

Raëlian Angels are a group of women around the world who call for femininity[22] and refinement for all of humanity. Raëlians believe that people must grow beyond today's pscyhological imbalances. They believe that the balancing minds of the world are more feminine, and that these feminine qualities are essential to avoiding hostile agression, with the Raëlian Angels serving a primary role in the movement's femininity

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and

The idea which this oath signifies is one's preparedness to defend Raël by being his bodyguards.

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and

According to Glenn Carter, a level 5 member of the structure in London, Flag of United Kingdom United Kingdom, the practice symbolizes one's acceptance to be a Raëlian in the eyes the movement

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and

Their interpretive view of the video suggested to them that Raelians' cult operations must be stopped, however, Sage Ali, a Raëlian guide told he has no qualms about what was videotaped and that there was nothing to hide.

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This entire section is in need of a definate rewrite, in terms of style and explanation:

Around the world, Raëlians have proselytized the Raëlian message at booths. Through these, Raëlians have called for feminine values, gay rights,[29] and their beliefs of extraterrestrial creators of mankind (Elohim) sending crop circles,[30] UFOs,[31] and spaceships for their arrival at an embassy. Anti-war rallies in Asia had the support of Raëlians with pasties and white alien costumes.[32][33] Raëlians floating a silver inflated "UFO" float were sighted by online bloggers in Pasadena, Flag of California California's Doo Dah Parade,[34][35] and a few years later other Raëlians had a booth in the Burning Man festival in Flag of Nevada Nevada.[36][37]

Made an attempt to address the style and explanation.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This could do with some more explaining and a rewrite for prose:

The Raëlian form of baptism is the "transmission of the cellular plan" using water on the palm of a Raëlian Guide applied to the forehead of the new member of the Raëlian Church.[17] The act is believed to be recorded by a computer to be accounted for at the initiate's final hour of judgment

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

again as could this statement:

There is disagreement over what the International Raëlian Movement should be called. There are governments[63] and scholars[4] who classify the International Raëlian Movement as a religion or new religious movement, while others, such as Flag of France France, classify it as a cult. Most reporters do not question the Raëlian Movement's cult status.[3][2]

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This section reads like a poor pov defence, lose the first bit:

The Raëlian Movement, as with many other religions, has members who do not follow the code of ethics espoused by the movement. Two guides of the Raëlian Movement in Flag of Belgium Belgium have been convicted for child abuse. The founder of the Raëlian Movement subsequently deposed a coursuit against psychiatrist Jean-Marie Abgrall, and lost it.

Made an attempt to address this.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other significant points that strike me about the non ga level of this article is its scope. Their is a little see further history wikilink after the activities section? Should there not be a seperate paragraph with a brief detail of history and the a main article wikilink.

Bits of history of the raelian movement and raelism have been inserted there. So it's the less signficant details which get put there.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also a little confused with regards to [3] why is all this info here and not in a seperate article???? This could then link to the main page? Other things I think need expanding include the criticism section. Overall I think the article definately fails wikipedia on points 1a and 3. LordHarris 10:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Made a page about Raëlians themselves.Kmarinas86 20:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Umm, the text? ;)Kmarinas86 18:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, why are they there? Quadzilla99 05:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To add content to the article. It notifies affiliation with countries.Kmarinas86 05:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's hideous. Quadzilla99 15:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quick Response

Talk:Raëlian Church

In the GA Review, I did not list every single line and edit that would need to be made to bring this article to the level of a Good Article. I see that you responded to each of the examples I gave and so I am confident you would benefit from a peer review that will give you more specific feedback and advice. Take the time to improve this article and perhaps invite others to provide some other perspectives to balance the POV and the article could be a GA. Cheers! Argos'Dad 01:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Kmarinas86 01:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

35 out of 56 sources are third-party sources (62.5%)

Here is the current list of footnotes which are third party:

3Pfn #1 1. ^ a b Religious Movements Homepage: Raelians (paragraph on Operation Condom), University of Virginia. Retrieved 4 March 2007.


3Pfn #2 2. ^ THE CLONING DEBATE, MacNeil/Lehrer Productions. 27 December 2002. Retrieved 10 February 2007.
3Pfn #3 3. ^ Grescoe, Taras, Raël love, Salon.com Travel. 8 March 2000. Retrieved 13 March 2007.
3Pfn #4 4. ^ a b Palmer, Susan J. Aliens Adored - search term is "NRM". New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 2004.
3Pfn #5 5. ^ 'Clone Baby' & Raelians, NBC 4 Los Angeles. 5 May 2005. Retrieved 12 March 2007.
3Pfn #6 7. ^ Raelians and Cloning: Are They for Real?, Zenit News Agency. 16 January 2003. Retrieved 25 March 2007.
3Pfn #7 10. ^ Isaksson, Stefan, New Religious UFO Movements: Extraterrestrial Salvation in Contemporary America - AnthroBase, California State University, Fresno. Spring 2000. Retrieved 25 April 2007.
3Pfn #8 14. ^ Palmer, Susan J. Susan J. Palmer: search terms are susan j palmer aliens adored teaching skills. New Brunswick, New Jersey: Rutgers University Press, 2004.
3Pfn #9 16. ^ Raël et le mouvement raélien, SECTES ET MOUVEMENTS RELIGIEUX. Retrieved 19 April 2007.
3Pfn #10 17. ^ Groups hurl accusations at anti-cult organization, Montreal Gazette. 1 April 1993. Retrieved 19 April 2007.
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What is desired, 70%(?) 80%(?) 90(%). Let me know. k, thanks!Kmarinas86 05:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Jackson

Result: delist=4, keep=5, no consensus. Maintain status quo (keep)

There seem to be NPOV problems, such as this line: This raised concern as some perceived his actions as child endangerment, although Jackson has vehemently denied these tabloid rumours. media attention that is negative being stated as "tabloid rumours" seems a bit biased. Strong fox 21:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delist Lead is far too long, surely some/most of the stuff about his accomplishments can be better said somewhere else in the body of the article? It seems like a bunch of overkill with so much in the lead. Homestarmy 02:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist The lead definitely could be trimmed, you could almost make a whole new section with the information there. There are also many citation needed tags throughout the article, and I'm sure other areas could also use some more inline citations as well. --Nehrams2020 00:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment this needs to be re-set, Strong Fox never put a notice on the article's talk page. Editors should be given notice and time to address concerns. Quadzilla99 19:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the lead is fixed, we can of course change our votes, i've changed my vote plenty of times based on article improvements. These reviews can last quite awhile. Homestarmy 15:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Regarding the lead, the first main paragraph is designed to explain the importance of the subject of the article, ie. to answer the question "Why is Michael Jackson relevant?" after "Who is Michael Jackson?" already being answered in the opening sentence. That's why the accomplishments are listed there. You'll notice a similar pattern for musical acts of equivalent stature, like Elvis Presley and The Beatles. There's a lot of talk about impact, achievement, sales, and so on. It's virtually impossible not to note down things like that for people like these. So far, I have removed the awards from the lead and placed them in another section. I have also mentioned the albums released after Thriller to give his musical career some sort of chronological perspective. Beyond that, the lead seems to be fairly all-right and of appropriate length.UberCryxic 12:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have no problems with the first and fourth paragraph, but the second and third go into so many specifics, that it seems less of a summary and more of a compleate list of every important influence Michael Jackson has had on, well, a whole bunch of things. For instance, where the second one lists the artists he's influenced, that kind of thing can easily be generalized into something like "Has influenced a great number of modern singers" or something like that. Then the main part of the article should be where the elaboration on who the people he's influenced are, because then there's plenty of room to explain every influence as much as needed. Homestarmy 13:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Lead is still way too long as far I'm concerned. I don't really care for any rationalizations, it's too long and should be cut. Quadzilla99 23:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • It is appropriate that long articles should have leads of three to four paragraphs. This one is more like three paragraphs (the first part is two introductory sentences). Whether you care for rationalizations or not is irrelevant; you're getting some, and in this case they are justified. To Home: those two paragraphs highlight the significance of the subject. At their core they are fine, but we can discuss how much information needs to be modified so it's of acceptable length to you guys. Beyond that, there are precedents that I used in writing those parts of the lead, especially Bing Crosby, whose influences in the lead are explained as follows:
    • One of the first multi-media stars, from 1934 to 1954 Bing Crosby held a nearly unrivaled command of record sales, radio ratings and motion picture grosses. He is usually considered to be among the most popular musical acts in history and is currently the most electronically recorded human voice in history. Crosby is also credited as being the major inspiration for most of the male singers that followed him, including the likes of Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, and Dean Martin. Yank magazine recognized Crosby as the person who had done the most for American GI morale during World War II and, during his peak years, around 1948, polls declared him the "most admired man alive" ahead of Jackie Robinson and the Pope[1][3] Also during 1948, the Music Digest estimated that Crosby recordings filled more than half of the 80,000 weekly hours allocated to recorded radio music.
    • The tone of the lead for that article is similar to the one for Michael Jackson, as are the details. This aside, however, I actually disagree with the assertion that the lead goes into specifics. It really doesn't, merely highlighting the major influences and aspects of Michael Jackson's career. The one part where it may is the third paragraph, although, again, there are tons of precedents with biographies of musicians that include sales figures and other chart accomplishments in the lead. If they are notable, they should be there. And with Michael Jackson, clearly that information is notable.UberCryxic 20:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm the main contributor on the Michael Jordan article which was recently promoted to FA, so I don't need any instructions on how to write an article on a well known iconic figure. Quotes in the lead (specifically about the subject rather than from the subject) are a bad idea unless the quotes are tremendously famous. So for starters I would cut the lengthy quote. Quadzilla99 08:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • This whole thing can go:"heralding and displaying complicated physical techniques, like the robot and the moonwalk, that have redefined mainstream dance and entertainment. At his height, he was characterized as "an unstoppable juggernaut, possessed of all the tools to dominate the charts seemingly at will: an instantly identifiable voice, eye-popping dance moves, stunning musical versatility, and loads of sheer star power."[2]" The first half sentence is unencyclopedic hyperbole and can be lopped off, the previous sentence will be fine without it. The second sentence is a quote which is in general a bad idea for a lead, also contains hyperbole. Quadzilla99 08:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Although I didn't think it necessary, I've removed the quotation from the lead.UberCryxic 02:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Not questioning your credentials, but it does not seem fair to refuse "rationalizations," as you put it. Quotations can sometimes do a good job of encapsulating a whole lot of information into one or two sentences. That's why this one was found and placed in the lead. It did an effective job at conveying the importance of the subject. The Michael Jordan lead is really not all that different from the Michael Jackson lead. You even talk about awards he's won, which is actually something I removed from the Michael Jackson lead as a response to this review. The Jordan lead, like the Michael Jackson lead with Vanity Fair, also mentions critical perceptions, like ESPN and the Associated Press. The language is somewhat comparable...."widely regarded as one of the greatest entertainers of all time"......"widely considered one of the greatest basketball players of all time"....."instrumental in popularizing the NBA around the world"....."redefined mainstread dance and entertainment"...and so on. Now I am beginning to challenge your implicit assertion that the leads of these two articles are notably different. Apart from the quotation, which is not a big deal at all, they are not. Both leads do a good job at highlighting the status and "magnitude," if you will, of the subject. And if you include just career achievements, then the two leads are actually of similar length. The only reason why the Michael Jackson lead is slightly longer is because it has to document his controversial personal life.UberCryxic 17:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for me on this one.UberCryxic 01:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: All raised concerns appear to have been addressed and fixed, the lead gives me a good summary of the article. --MPD T / C 02:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist Lead is currently as long as it ever was (568 words), quotations were re-introduced, there's needless hyperbole and extra wording. Also the list of everybody he's ever influenced does not belong in the lead, it belongs in this type of section. Quadzilla99 13:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Comment As regards what MPD has said length of the lead has not been addressed. Quadzilla99 13:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The quotation was removed at one point, but I was reverted by another (far more persistent) user with whom I did not want to get into a big discussion or an edit war, especially over something so relatively insignificant. I am still officially supporting the removal of that quotation, but I can tell you right now it will not be an easy process getting it past some other users. There are plenty of precedents on articles about musical acts discussing specific and future artists that they have influenced. If the artists in question are notable, and clearly they are here, there's nothing wrong with mentioning them in the lead. The insinuation that the list represenets "everybody he's ever influenced" is ridiculous; that list really would deserve its own section. The people mentioned are meant to be representative of the various genres in which Jackson has had an impact....and, again, they are famous.UberCryxic 16:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ok the quotation has been removed once more from the lead and placed in another section. Beyond that, I truly believe the lead is fine. Again, take away Jackson's personal life and his career gets the same coverage length-wise as Michael Jordan does in his lead.UberCryxic 16:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist From an outside view I find this article to be quite biased and in general badly written. It will never progress if the persistent fanboy gushing is not addressed promptly.--Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 00:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I ask the community to disregard the above "vote." The user has less than 50 edits and is clearly not well-positioned to make a call that requires some quasi-extensive experience with the articles and policies of Wikipedia.UberCryxic 03:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • As the user is not one that can participate in a consensus-building exercise on Wikipedia, then there is nothing wrong with just completely removing their statements (and votes), much less crossing them out. In fact, I've had personal experiences with this during my FA reviews. The votes cast by recent editors were promptly removed and discarded. Basically, their votes should be ignored, and I wanted to make it firmly clear to whoever is adjudicating whether there is consensus that the above person can be disregarded.UberCryxic 15:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • And this actually gets funnier....I just checked the user's history again and I notice that this person has actually made "extensive," if I can use that word for someone with less than 50 edits, contributions in wikispace, particularly for FA reviews. I have no idea what this user had in mind, but obviously these actions on his or her part are inappropriate. I just hope they found out who it was during those reviews.....UberCryxic 15:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • (undent) I don't feel like arguing but usually newly created accounts get crossed out on FACs. Althought the edit count is low, the editor has been signed up for a while. Most voters crossed off on FACs are newly created accounts that are suspected duplicate voters, not low count voters who supposedly don't know the criteria, which is not that complicated especially now incidentally. Quadzilla99 16:00, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just so we're clear, do you believe that the user's vote should not count? If so, then I do not really care which part you cross out. If you want, you can go ahead and cross the username only. Makes no real difference to me. If you do believe that the user's vote should count, then we are going to have somewhat of a discussion on our hands, to put it mildly.UberCryxic 18:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • In fact, I have gone ahead and arbitrarily crossed out the "vote" as it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.UberCryxic 03:54, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I do think the user's vote should count, I've notified him/her and I'll let you two discuss it if he wishes to come here and comment. Usually users who appear to have registered just to vote on an FAC are discounted, that user registered 8 months ago. Hopefully he/she will come comment and I won't have to carry this on any further. Quadzilla99 18:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • How long they have been registered for is irrelevant. I've seen people who've been registered longer than this and they have like 20 or 30 edits. I believe the informal requirement for participating in these activities is something like registration for a month and at least 100 edits in mainspace, not wikispace. The edits that this person does have are all in areas that he or she should not have been involved in to begin with.UberCryxic 19:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Furthermore, I don't see what notifying the user will accomplish. Obviously that person will claim that his or her vote is legitimate. But the whole point is that when it comes to matters like this, opinions from these users are trivial.UberCryxic 19:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • It offends me very much that you would cross out my vote like it was nothing, not to mention that you didn't even tell me about it. I may not have have many edits but my opinions are as valid as the next persons. And anyway, just because I don't have many edits, it doesn't mention I haven't read the relevant wikipedia policies or the edit history of the article I'm giving an opinion on - believe me I've done both. Its presumptuous and rude of you to think otherwise - and act on - without any evidence. If you don't agree with my opinion fine, I can accept that, but removing it is another issue altogether and something I don't at all appreciate.--Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 02:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I do not mean to insult you in any way. Your vote was crossed out or removed because that is common practice with inexperienced users who get involved in consensus-building activities. What's actually presumptuous is your edit history on Wikipedia; I'm amazed that the majority of your less-than-50 edits have been made in wikispace. You should be aware that those kinds of actions are completely inappropriate. Regardless of what you think of your understanding of Wikipedia, you simply are not allowed to participate, at this stage anyway, in FA or GA reviews. As I said, this isn't about your opinion. Your opinion here is irrelevant. Another way to put it.....you don't have an opinion when it comes to this matter. You can't have 50 edits on Wikipedia and go to GA review pages saying you think articles should be kept or deleted. You need more of a history in mainspace before you can do something like that. Hopefully this is all clear. Again, your vote is irrelevant and will not count. I just want to make sure everyone, but especially you, understands this.UberCryxic 23:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment The user has now been blocked on charges of sockpuppetry for one week. I have again crossed out the above vote, which can now be safely regarded as disposable.UberCryxic 01:33, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There is a major problem with this article, and I'm now gonna tell you why. There is a lot of CRAP on that article. It's a breeding ground for people to dump trash about Michael, and then the SAME hypocrits go back and claim that there are fan boys gushing out. I must say it's a convenient way to keep the article in its overly bias state. It's actually an extremely clever method. Of course, most people here are tabloid junkies who hate Michael so it makes it easy to just pile up hateful posts and dump 'em in the article. That's why this article is bias. Don't try flipping this around. This article still paints Michael as a molester and then an musician. It should be the other way around, but unfortunately it ain't, and it's sad to see these haters then try to accuse unknown fans of coming on and dumping out crud. Sad... really really sad. --Paaerduag 02:48, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep since this delisting consensus was started because someone said that the article is full of fan gush, which is totally ridiculous and acutally the REVERSE situation is occuring, I have decided to cast my vote to keep the article as a good article. I will not believe these ridiculous rants by haters claiming that the article is full of fan gush, it is acutally full of haters gush which is disgusting and bias, and should be removed. --Paaerduag 07:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep as the article includes a lot of well-balanced information. However, some additional information concerning Jackson's personal relationships may be included. Onefortyone 13:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The problem seems to be the lead for most delisters. Note that the article is over 100k, meaning that the four-paragraph lead really isn't too long given the article's size. I think it could be trimed down though, and leads generally shouldn't need that many references. The point is that to me, it still passes GA criterion (though it's certainly not an FA yet).--Wizardman 16:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delist: The lead is too long and the article being long doesn't justify this because it is too long as well. The point in pulling information from articles and creating other articles is to shorten the main. I understand his status is our culture involves a lot of information and it's not easy to pull information, but that's the point. Additionally, fact tags are always disqualifiers for me. And I don't see how this article is negatively biased in anyway. It seems well balanced, in that respect. I think it's a very well written article, but doesn't currently meets GA standards. However, it shouldn't be that difficult or time consuming to address the few issues. LaraLoveTalk/Contribs 19:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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