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Black Moshannon State Park

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
We've listed this article for peer review because we believe that is could be a Featured Article. We are looking for some feedback on this article before it is submitted for FA. It has been thoroughly researched and we believe that with some changes suggested in the PR process that it will be shortly ready for FA.

Thanks, Dincher (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC) and Ruhrfisch[reply]


Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Nice article. A few points which would be picked up at FAC.

  • Don't allow spaces between citations and text/punctuation, so look at the infobox - looks to me like [1] to [4] have a space in front of them.
I fixed one problem. The others looked fine. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is a Geobox and the refs in it are done differently than most places on Wikipedia. I just doublechecked all the refs and they have no spaces. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possibly worth clarifying what Lenape means so non experts don't have to chase the link - just adding Delaware Indians or something similar would suffice...
Changed it to Lenape Indians. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You link dam in the CCC section but not in the lead. Perhaps linking both would be best.
Linked. Dincher (talk) 17:43, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pavillion 4 caption is complete sentence so needs a full stop/period.

(.) placed. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "1 - 6" should be "1–6".
Fixed. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you make stubs for the red links? It's not a prerequisite of an FA but I always think it's cool to create a couple of stubs at the least to expand the Encyclopaedia...
Will do. Soonish. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was already going to make a stub for Mid-State Regional Airport, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take take of the Keystone Opportunity Zone. Dincher (talk) 19:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cranberries and Blueberries don't need to be capitalised.
Fixed. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once, in Australia, at Taronga Zoo, someone told me that Raptorial bird of prey was a subset of Bird of prey. You use the terms interchangeably, perhaps (if this lady was correct!) you should expand bird of prey to be raptorial bird of prey and then use raptor next time (as you have done) to mean the same thing.
Don't know about this one. I guess herons are birds of prey but they certainly aren't raptors. This may be a U.S. vs. Australia language difference. Will look into it. Perhaps we could just use raptors instead of birds of prey or vice versa. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • List citations numerically so no to [10][2].
Will get to that later. Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I checked them all and fixed two. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have on a first run. I can't believe it would struggle to much at FAC! Good work. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments! Dincher (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree on the thanks and thanks to Dincher for fixing most of them so quickly. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from VerruckteDan (talk · contribs)

The article looks great. I gave it a complete read through and didn't see anything that jumped out. I'd say its ready for FAC, and when that happens, the article has my strong support. VerruckteDan (talk) 15:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from Ben MacDui (talk · contribs)

This is an excellent article and I apologise for the lengthy remarks following, many of which may simply occur because I am unfamiliar with US usage. Pls don't feel its necessary to comment on them all (or indeed any of them).

Lead

"then clear-cut the vast stands of old-growth white pine and eastern hemlock to meet the needs of a developing nation during the late 1800s."

From an environmental perspective, I don't believe that being a 'developing nation' is an excuse for lamentable practice. Perhaps "then clear-cut the vast stands of old-growth white pine and eastern hemlock to meet the needs of a growing nation during the late 1800s." might avoid the suggestion you support clear-felling in Borneo.
Changed "developing to "growing", thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'cross country skiing' is a redirect

fixed, Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 15:54, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"all of these recreational activities at it."

Slightly odd ending "associated with it"?

History

"from plant tannins from the local"

there must be a way to avoid the two 'from' s
Changed to The name "Black Moshannon" refers to the dark color of the water, a result of plant tannins from the local vegetation and bog. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The Native Americans hunted, fished, and traded in the area" Speaking as an aboriginal myself, this was a disappointing sentence. Firstly it had an element of "tell me something I didn't know". Secondly it seemed to condemn hundreds, even thousands of years of history to oblivion. This place is an amazingly beautiful and fertile area. Do we know nothing more of the people who were its stewards, especially perhaps their view as to its significance? Perhaps not.

  • I have added a few more sentences on the other known Native inhabitants of the area, and an important path that ran quite close to (but not, as far as is known, through) the park. I also added the date of the original purchase of the park land from the Iroquois. Sadly, we have not come across anything else on the aboriginal peoples and the park. Thanks for pointing out the omission, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The first settlers there opened the Antes Tavern along the Pike"

'there' is redundant
Gone, thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" Lumbermen came and harvested the trees and sent them down Black Moshannon and Moshannon Creeks"

Possibly missing 'the' before 'Black'
Thanks. Local usage for major West Branch Susquehanna River tributaries seems to be to only include "the" before Loyalsock Creek. Perhaps Dincher knows better than I, though. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ruhrfisch is correct. "The" is used only rarely when speaking about local creeks. The only instance I have heard is indeed The Loyalsock. Dincher (talk) 23:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" This boom era was not to last: before long all the trees were gone, and once the trees were all clear-cut, the people soon left too." Two 'all' s could be fixed.

Second all is gone, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania bought thousands of acres of deforested and burned land. The state began the project of reforesting the land"

When were these purchases? Could be one sentence rather than two.
Now reads In the late 19th- and early 20th-centuries, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania bought thousands of acres of deforested and burned land, then began the project of reforestation., thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian Conservation Corps

"Black Moshannon State Park is just one of many examples of the work"

I can't help feeling that a religious pedant might take umbrage. Perhaps "The creation of the Black.." would avoid trespassing on the deity's territory.
Agreed that only God can make a tree, tweaked this section accordingly Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC

" In 1987, the existing CCC structures in Black Moshannon State Park were placed on the National Register of Historic Places as part of three separate historic districts"

You might mean "In 1987, the three separate historic districts incorporating existing CCC structures in Black Moshannon State Park were placed on the National Register of Historic Places" The existing text implies some parts of the historic districts were not so placed.

" Cabins 1–6 are single room log cabins, while cabins 7–12 are two room log cabins."

This might be over-doing the detail. I thought the same at the first para of Cabins, camping, swimming and picnics.

" The Maintenance Historic District is four CCC-built structures"

I am quite unfamiliar with the local terminology, but surely 'includes four'.

Modern era

" The CCC-built dam forming Black Moshannon Lake was replaced in the 1950s by the current structure. On 11 November 1954, the Pennsylvania Geographic Board officially named it "Black Moshannon State Park"."

This reads as if the dam has been so named.
Changed, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" The park experienced major developments between 1971 and 1980. As of 2008, post-war facilities at the park"

the 'at the park' is a little repetitious and probably redundant.
removed, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" The three Historic Districts were added to the NRHP in 1987 to recognize their CCC-built structures "

NRHP: what dis? 'In recognition of' might be better.
Changed, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You need to explain (DCNR) the first time it's used.

Geology

shale, limestone and sandstone could be linked on first mention (only).

linked - I will go through the article when the Peer Review is done and remove duplicate links by hand Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The lake within the park is at an elevation of about 1,900 feet (580 m)" could be mentioned in the lead as it helps set the scene. People familiar with Pennsylvania might expect this, but not everyone will.

Good catch, actually that is one of the unusual things about the park. Added to the Lead now, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which raises an important point. There is nothing about the climate, which is a crucial factor in the development of the ecology. I don't think you need complex rainfall tables, but a paragraph or two would not go amiss.

I have annual rainfall I can add. This sentence was already in The higher elevation leads to a cooler climate, and the basin helps trap denser, cooler air, leading to longer winters and milder summers.[4] There is a bit more that can be added about the cool, wet climate causing plants and animals from more northerly climes to live here. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I added some more on climate - I found data for State College, Pennsylvania, which is about 20 miles (32 km) away, but is not on the Allegheny Plateau and so I doubt the usefulness of the data. Will keep looking. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think "anthracite coal" should just be "anthracite", but this may be US usage.

Ecology

You are lucky to have so many squirrels but " Wild Turkey, Ruffed Grouse, Opossum, Raccoon, Hawks, Red, Eastern Gray, and Flying squirrels," contains a few problems.

'Red' is not a species of anything as it appears to be on first sight. Putting all the squirrels at the and after an 'and' might fix it. See 'Warblers' later, where it works well.
Squirrels now grouped at end, thanks for the idea Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A pet gripe of mine is the ludicrous inconsistency of styles relating to the capitalisation of species on Wikipedia. If there is a logic to the use you are using please help me out. If there isn't I'd be happy to suggest one.
We were also confused by the styles and tried to capitalize everything that was a species, I doubt we got it consistent, and would welcome your suggestion for improving these Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Period needed in caption?

Per the MOS. since Visitors' boardwalk trail through the bog natural area at Black Moshannon State Park is not a sentence (no verb), it has no full stop (period). The other two captions here have verbs and periods. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" Bogs are freshwater wetlands that act like a sponge, thanks to the large amounts of sphagnum moss they contain. Dead sphagnum moss decomposes very slowly, which causes layers of the moss to build up at the bottom of the bog, creating peat under the moss"

Firstly, I don't think you need to explain what a bog is. Secondly, bogs do not contain sphagnum willy-nilly. If this is a particular feature of the Park (or the area in general) you could explain that.
Changed so that bog = sponge removed, and note that sphagnum is specifically part of the park's bog. Is this better? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"and very close to the surface of the earth"

I think MOS is a little silly here as this could mean "and very close to the surface of the soil". Fixable, but not sure what to suggest.
Tried it as ...that lie flat, a short distance below the surface of the earth. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" Sandstone does not absorb water very well" Not generally true at all as the lead to Sandstone explains. The local sandstone must be unusual, which requires a brief explanation.

This follows the park's official website, so changed to The sandstone formations in the park do not absorb water very well... Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" The water in the bog is low in nutrients and high in acid, which makes it difficult for most plants to live in a bog." " There is a large area of forest in the IBA, as well as a large amount of habitat diversity." " Black Moshannon Lake and the bogs of Black Moshannon Natural Area are especially important to the Important Bird Area." " s located along the Allegheny Front, which is along a"

No need for two 'bog' or 'large' s or 'important' or 'along' s in a single sentence.
Thanks - all are now fixed, I believe Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the mouthful "Pennsylvania Important Bird Area #33" has an acceptable acronym you might consider using it here and there.

IBA it is, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recreation

"The sandy beach on Black Moshannon Lake is open Memorial Day weekend through Labor Day weekend."

If this was GB English there would be an 'on' before 'Memorial'
Added "from" before "Memorial Day weekend", thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" The use of the picnic tables is first come, first served and they are free of charge"

I presume there must be other systems at work in the US as I have never come across anything else in the UK.
Some of the picnic tables in the park are in the pavilions and shelters and these can be reserved (which I added to the article). The picture of shelter Number 5 here shows an "Available" sign (not surprising as it was January when the photo was taken). Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" "about the best whitewater run in the West Branch Susquehanna Watershed"" I think MOS asks you to put the citation immediately after the quote.

Moved, although the material after it comes from Gertler too. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

" warm waters" should be explained or measured in the climate section for example. I'm surprised they are warm, especially in winter. They are damn cold here at 580 metres, even in summer!

Put the cold creek first, then noted that the lake is warm in comparison and has different species of fish as a result. This is a common local desgnation (cold and warm waters), but tried to make it clearer. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"handicapped accessible. It was built by the Pennsylvania Conservation Corps and received awards for its accessibility". You could re-word this to avoid the two accessibles.

Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are, I notice, lots of duplicate links here. I don't mind, but somebody might. 'Leatherleaf' could be linked on first rather than second mention. Black Cherry could be linked.

Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I presume " ax" is a legit US spelling. It could be linked to axe.

It is, linked now, thanks yet again, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The final image is excellent. If you half close your eyes you could be in Scotland.

Thanks very much - I might nominate it at WP:PPR next time I am feeling confident - it has a slight stitching error on the right side they will pick up on immediately. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. If you are aggrieved please feel free to leave comments here. Bon chance at FAC. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 14:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wow, thanks for a very detailed review. Dincher and I will work on addressing the points you have raised. I would appreciate any suggestion on capitalizing species / names of plants and animals. Will address the other points above, if you don't mind. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 14:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Dtbohrer (talk · contribs)

Great article, just about ready to be a FAC. More suggestions will be added as I notice things. --​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​talk•contribs 20:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Measurement conversions:
    • The infobox converted the area of park from acres to hectares, the rest of the area measurements in the article convert from acres to square kilometers. You might want to fix them so they convert to either all hectares or all square kilometers.
    • The first instance of a unit of measurement in the article should be wikilinked.
  • Pronunciation: It might be useful to have the IPA prounciation (partly because I'm not sure of the proper way to say Moshannon). The name orgin helps somewhat but, is it pronounced Moe-shannon or Moss-hannon?
It is Moe-shannon. I'll add that. Dincher (talk) 02:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
ecit conflict - I agree on Moe-shannon (nickname for the creek is "Black Mo"). I do not know how to do IPA. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't know what an IPA is, but I looked up Shannon on merriamwebster.com to get the phonetic spellling of it. It looks like this (ˈsha-nən) and put an Mō in front of it. Hope this does the trick. Dincher (talk) 03:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Yllosubmarine (talk · contribs)

This is completely out of my scope, but Ruhrfisch asked me to step in and help out, which I'm happy to do. I enjoyed reading the article and think it quite good, and almost ready, for FAC. A few things:

  • The lead's first sentence is somewhat redundant. Is that usually how parks are introduced? I think it would be easier to say that "Black Moshannon State Park is a American state park in Pennsylvania's Rush Township in Centre County" or something similarly condensed.
I disagree. There are 120 Pennsylvania state park articles and every or nearly every begins the same way. Including Presque Isle State Park which is a Featured Article.Dincher (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough; as long as there's precedence I won't argue against it. :) María (habla conmigo) 13:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is also a link to the (Featured} List of Pennsylvania state parks in "Pennsylvania state park" Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bog in the park provides a habitat for diverse wildlife not common in other areas of the state. Like what?
I am not sure what you mean with this comment.Dincher (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be OK to mention the carnivorous plants, orchids, and perhaps animals from more northern climes? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I think that is what is wanted. I am fine with adding it. Dincher (talk) 01:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, that's what I meant; sorry for not being clearer! María (habla conmigo) 13:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It now reads ...diverse wildlife not common in other areas of the state, such as carniovorus plants, orchids, and species normally found farther north.' Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The quote in the lead, the "[l]argest reconstituted bog/wetland complex in Pennsylvania", could use a citation.
This is cited at the end of the sentence. Do you think a citation should also be place mid-sentence? Dincher (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the MOS changed - it used to be OK to put the cite at the end of the sentence, but now they want it directly after the quote - my fault. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 23:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I believe that's the new fangled way. María (habla conmigo) 13:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what is supposed to be italicized, but there's an open tag in the IPA pronunciation in the "Native Americans" section.
That was a typing error. Thanks for catching it. Dincher (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This boom era was not to last: before long the trees were gone, and once the trees were all clear-cut, the people soon left too. Ack, this is awkward. Not to mention ending a sentence in "too" = squick.
Tweaked. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 20:36, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The original facilities at Black Moshannon State Park were constructed by the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) from 1933 to 1937, during the Great Depression. "...constructed during the Great Depression by the Civilian Conservation Corps from 1933 to 1937"?
Fixed. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm seeing the repetitious use of "the park is home to" or its variations. In the "Wildlife" section it's used three times, for example. "the bogs, marshes, and swamps host carnivorous plants..."?
Down to one "home" now. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wild cranberries and blueberries live in the bog... Is "live" the best word choice for cranberries and blueberries? Grow? Thrive?
Grow. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added one serial comma, which is what is mainly used at the beginning, but there are spots where it's not used, as well, especially near the end of the article. Whichever you prefer (serial or no), it should be consistent.
  • Should the section name "Important bird area" be capitalized as Important Bird Area is?
Fixed. Thanks. Dincher (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting article! The images are great, especially the panorama, which is gorgeous btw. I think you guys will have an easy enough time at FAC, but another copy-edit may help; I fixed a couple simple things (rm spaces, etc), but I see some repetitive wording here and there that a simple c-e would fix. Overall wonderful job, though. :) Good luck! María (habla conmigo) 14:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks very much Maria, I fixed the italics problem for now, but am busy for the next several hours in real life. I am sure DIncher and I will get ot the remaining issues in the next day or sooner. I plan to do a paper and red ink copyedit and link check before FAC, thanks also for your fixes. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks from me too. It has been an interesting article to write. Maybe someday I'll actually get to visit it! Dincher (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the copyedit and species capitalization, I believe the points have all been addressed. Thanks for a very careful reading and improving thearticle. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did the reading aloud trick and finished a copyedit just now, the species capitalizations are also now consistent. Thanks so much for your help, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Species capitalisation

Needless to say MOS is still hopeless. "At the present time, the Tree of Life Project has a far more relaxed naming convention than the one listed in this guideline. The first sentence of this section gives individual WikiProjects complete control over the capitalization issue. Thus, the section as it's listed now is useless, given the top most project the standard covers, doesn't even conform to it" quoth Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (fauna). Into this anarchy we tread, those of us who write articles that cross taxonomic boundaries. My favoured solution is to capitalise species of all taxa and use lower case for other general references to animals and plants. Candidly, I can see no policy or guideline based justification to have any system at all, save to avoid argument at FAC.

Having got the grumble out of the way, the system I use would not capitalise Oppossum or Hawks for example as these are not species. If you intend to capitalise species or groups of species, then cranberry and bilberry should be capitalised (and I notice it was suggested they should not be above), unless you are choosing to treat plants and animals differently (and there is nothing in MOS that says you can't). However frogs and salamanders you have as lower case. 'Brown bear' is out of order either way. If you can be completely clear about what you want I'll do what I can to help

There is an italics problem at the beginning of the history section btw. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 15:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks so much again MacDui, this seems a sensible and consistent system and we will implement it in the article as soon as we can. The italics issue has been fixed for now, thanks again, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to leave this one up to somebody else. I think capitalizing most animal or plant names is odd, but apparently on wiki that's the way things are. Dincher (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have capitalized only species names in the Wildlife and Bog Natural Area sections, going by the linked articles as to whether or not it was a species. Turns out cranberries and blueberries are not species. More later, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All of the species names are capitalized now, non species names are lower case. I have also made sure that every title in the references is either in italics or in "title". Thanks so much for all of you help, I think DIncher is going to nominate this at FAC next. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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