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Cher

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Cher is a singer-actress who first rose to proeminence in 1965 as one-half of the husband–wife duo Sonny & Cher, as their song "I Got You Babe" topped the Billboard Hot 100 and the UK Singles Chart. She was able to stay in the public eye since then by adopting a variety of styles and appearances during her five-decade-long career. Biographer Mark Bego wrote, "No one in the history of show business has had a career of the magnitude and scope of Cher's. She has been a teenage pop star, a television hostess, a fashion magazine model, a rock star, a pop singer, a Broadway actress, an Academy Award-winning movie star, a disco sensation, and the subject of a mountain of press coverage."

I've been working hard on this article since 2012, firstly because I am deeply interested in Cher's career and its overall impact on today's female pop artists, and secondly because editing the article helps me improve my English (it's not my first language, as you probably can see). I'm not that good with prose, but I have a lot of patience and a tremendous desire to learn. Thanks, Lordelliott (talk) 22:24, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SNUGGUMS Part 1

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Addressed comments. Starting over fresh given restructure.

I will start by reviewing the lead. This article should be an overall interesting read. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:50, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be back with more later. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing.....

Life and career
Early life
  • Ethnicity tends not to be linked
  • It would be better to use something more definitive than "claimed" ancestry.
  • No need to state how many marriages her mother had here; that belongs in her own article. Let's just go with "from her mother's subsequent marriage to actor John Southall, Cher has a half-sister named Georganne"
  • Is "creativity" in "Cher's family first noticed her creativity when in the fifth grade" a neutral term?
  • I can't really either, probably best to just remove that altogether and go with "When Cher was in fifth grade"
  • Remove the comma after "half-sister" in "and her half-sister, Georganne"
  • "Cher began to pattern her outfits and behavior after the eccentric, fast-living character portrayed by Hepburn"..... try "Cher began to take after the unconventional outfits and behavior of Hepburn's character".
  • "good grades" → "high grades"

More will follow after these are addressed. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1960s
Sonny and Cher's rise and fall from pop stardom
  • Sonny's age is unnecessary detail
  • "the unsuccessful 'Ringo, I Love You'"..... specify whether you mean critically unsuccessful, commercially unsuccessful, or both
  • I think it flopped both critically and commercially. I found this source that says: "'Ringo, I Love You' was produced by Bono's pal Phil Spector and flopped out of the gate, since too many people thought the singer sounded like a man." Does it help? Is it worth mentioning? Lordelliott (talk) 05:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't necessarily need the quote, but I would say it was commercially unsuccessful. No preference on whether to include that it was panned, but if you do, be sure to give examples of what critics said. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "issued under the name Bonnie Jo Mason" → "which Cher recorded under the name Bonnie Jo Mason"
  • "the poorly received singles"..... see above note on "unsuccessful"
  • The source says: "Sonny even got a record deal for Caesar & Cleo with Reprise Records. The deal was for three singles only. If any of them became hits, the company could offer them a long-term deal. They proceeded to record three cover versions of other people's hits that were each released as singles by the company. The three songs were 'Do You Wanna Dance?', 'Love Is Strange', and 'Let The Goodtimes Roll.' Somehow Caesar & Cleo weren't making any waves in the record world ...". Can we assume that the singles were commercial flops based on this excerpt? Lordelliott (talk) 05:45, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sonny came along as her producer"..... became her producer
  • "received airplay in Los Angeles"..... rather vague in terms of commercial success (or lack thereof)
  • For the first mention of Billboard charts, it helps to indicate they are from the United States since not everyone is familiar with the nation's chart names
  • "reached the Billboard 200 top 20"..... let's be more specific and say it reached number 16.
  • "remaining on the chart for six months" is better for the album's article, though topping a chart for that long would be worth mentioning here
  • This is the correct link for "I Got You Babe"'s peak, and you'll need a separate source for Bruce Eder's quote
  • "by designing a clothing line"..... I don't think "designing" needs to be linked, and let's give the name of this clothing line
  • As the Parish & Pitts source is the only one I can find that gives Cher credit for designing this 1966 clothing line, I decided to rework this part based on this source; now it reads: "In February 1966, Sonny and Cher released a clothing line that included bell-bottoms and blouses for girls and unisex bobcast vests." Better? Lordelliott (talk) 05:24, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • See above note on "remaining on the chart for six months" regarding "spent eight consecutive weeks at number two on the Billboard 200 behind the Beatles' Help!"
  • I think this is worth mentioning. The Beatles were an unprecedent phenomenon in 1965, so S&C's debut album staying eight weeks at number two on the Billboard 200 chart only behind a Beatles album is quite a feat. Don't you agree? Lordelliott (talk) 05:57, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Something about the tone of "smooth sound" and "warm harmonies" doesn't seem right
  • "hits" in "mid-level hits" and "top-ten hits" is too informal, and it doesn't help to list a number like you did in "six top-ten hits" without giving their names
  • Give specific song names for "they had five songs in the top 20"
  • Searched the Billboard archives and couldn't find a single week in which S&C had five singles simultaneously on the Top 20. The source is her official website (probably press-release puffery) and it is currently down, so I'm removing it. Lordelliott (talk) 06:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a song with exotic-sounding Gypsy violins and a dramatic vocal delivery" is for the song's article rather than here
  • What are "stateside" in "stateside version" and "square" in "were quite 'square' when it came to sex and drugs" referring to?
  • Cher recorded the first American (stateside) version of the now-popular song "Alfie". "Square" refers to Sonny and Cher, as they were considered old fashioned for not doing drugs like other rock musicians and their following. Should these sentences be clarified? If so, how? Lordelliott (talk) 06:47, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term "square" is inside this quote: According to biographer Mark Bego, "in spite of their revolutionary unisex clothes, Sonny and Cher were quite 'square' when it came to sex and drugs." It could only be reworded if we did paraphrasing. What would you suggest? Lordelliott (talk) 05:09, 26 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "childish" doesn't seem necessary or very formal
  • See above note on "unsuccessful" for Good Times
  • "was not a success"..... please elaborate
  • I would use what Sonny's memoir itself says for details on their relationship and marriage
  • "The art film failed"..... vague
  • "some critics noted that Cher showed signs of acting potential"..... give specific examples
  • "made it a success"..... see previous comments

Let's get these out of the way before any further input Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:23, 19 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1970s
Television and musical success, solo career
  • "first solo number-one single"..... which nation?
  • "It became the biggest-selling single in the history of MCA Records"..... give a figure
  • "was nominated for the Grammy Award for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance"..... same rationale as Emmys/Oscars

This is a rather long section and I don't have time to review it in full yet. Probably gonna do this and the rest of these bit by bit. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:07, 24 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • "hits" in "contemporary hits" is too informal
  • "demonstrating the evolution of her vocal abilities" sounds like fancruft
  • "became Cher's second U.S. solo number-one single" needs a citation since RIAA doesn't take into account chart positions
  • Looking through RIAA's database, I only see a gold certification for the song "Half-Breed", nothing for the album
  • RIAA's searchable database is a bit messed up, as you probably know. In this link, click "Advanced [+]" > "Artist Name", type "Cher" and click in the "search" button. Now go to the third page; you'll find that both the album and the single were certified Gold; the album name reads "Half Breed", while the single name reads "Half-Breed". :-) Lordelliott (talk) 23:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see "proven superstar who always sells records" anywhere in the given citation
  • Please look again; it is written in a mini-review for her album Greatest Hits, the fourth album review of the page. "Dealers: A proven superstars who always sells records. Place this one in MOR as well as rock and pop and take full advantage." Lordelliott (talk) 23:04, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sonny and Cher's career was revived with four albums released under Kapp Records and MCA Records"..... give the album's names
  • "Cher commented on her hectic schedule during this period"..... try "During this period, Cher stated"
  • Using "By late 1972, Cher's marriage with Sonny was over" doesn't seem right when they didn't even separate until 1974; I would if anything say they had marital problems instead
  • "Sonny went on without Cher and renamed the show The Sonny Comedy Revue. It was canceled after six weeks." needs to be rewritten since it is extremely close paraphrasing to the source's words "Sonny went on without Cher and renamed the show The Sonny Comedy Revue. The show was canceled after six weeks."
  • "replaced by a Sonny and Cher show"..... did her original show with him replace the Cher show?
  • How did Stars become a "cult classic" after initial negative reviews?
  • Ok, I understand now. The source says: "A number of ill-fated projects for Warner Brothers that began when her tenure at MCA Records ended in the mid-1970s have gone on to become not only cult classics, but highly-prized collectibles as well. Case in point is an album called Stars, featuring an amazing rendition of “Geronimo’s Cadillac”. Although it’s been out of print for years, it is generally considered one of her best, and demand for pristine copies of the album remains high." No detail on how the album managed to become a cult classic—I, as a fan, can say that this album is very worshipped among her fan base despite being out of print since the time of its release (it remains unreleased in CD), but that's all. Lordelliott (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were also commercially unsuccessful"..... seems odd to only note now that Stars was a commercial failure rather than in a previous sentence
  • The URL for Cher and Other Fantasies is dead
  • "hits" in "instant hits" is too informal
  • "and thus a commercial failure"..... try "and led to its commercial failure"

I haven't looked through the entire article in detail, but can definitely say that this has a long way to go before it can become FA or even GA (I see this previously had two unsuccessful FAC's after a failed GAN). The close paraphrasing issue alone is rather worrisome, and the 1960s-1990s subsections of "life and career" are uncomfortably long to read when only split by decades. There also are bare URL's, incorrect uses of italics in references (i.e. ABC News, E!, History shouldn't be italicized), subpar sources (i.e. Discogs, Huffington Post) and HARVref errors (use an error-detecting script to find them). Be sure to also check for dead URL's. Best of luck, Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:27, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sad to see you are quitting. This is a very difficult article to work on; that's probably why most peer reviewers always quit way before we reach the end of the article. Sadly I, as a non-native English speaker, can not do much alone... Thanks for your input anyway. Cheers, Lordelliott (talk) 23:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, the Life and career subsections were rearranged to improve the reading flow. Lordelliott (talk) 18:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just did a massive review of the article. All of your points were addressed: there are no more subpar sources, formatting errors, dead links, or bare URL's. I would very be happy if you could take a new look at the article. : ) Lordelliott (talk) 11:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SNUGGUMS Part 2

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Will begin between January 25th and 29th..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:38, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'll resume this with an image review:

  • File:Cher - Casablanca.jpg is properly licensed, though I'd try to get a more specific time frame for when it was taken than "c. 1970s"
  • I know from this fan-made gallery that the picture was taken in 1979, but of course it can't be used as source. The image's description on Commons doesn't reveal the year, but the original cut have the Casablanca Records logo, which indicates that the pic was taken between 1979 and 1981 (the years Cher was signed to the label, according to the article). What would you suggest? Lordelliott (talk) 19:24, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Cher HS Yearbook.jpg is also properly licensed, though I think a better caption would be "Cher as a high school student in 1960"
  • I'm not sure if File:Sonny-and-Cher.jpg can be claimed as free use since it's originating source says "some rights reserved" and it's not entirely clear if uploader Peter Denton truly owns even the Flickr upload.

More to come later for the other images as well as audio samples. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:Believe - Cher.ogg is also too long at 35 seconds long. Per WP:SAMPLE, it can't exceed 23 seconds since the song is 3:58 (238 seconds long).
  • How exactly is File:Cher Believe D2K.jpg beneficial?
  • I'm not sure if this can be appropriately uploaded and implemented into an article, but using "external images" isn't a good way to include it either way
  • File:Nancy Reagan with Cher.jpg doesn't give a very clear view of Cher's face, and it would probably be better to have a pic of her with one of the politicians mentioned in article body and/or a discussed political event she attended

That's all for the media use. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:38, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I made a little rearragement of some of the images:
Lordelliott (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From this point onward, I'll only be reviewing prose:

1979–82
Second musical comeback, shift from disco music to rock
  • "Black Rose broke up"..... disbanded
  • "hit" in "UK top-five hit" is again too informal
  • "disappointing" in "disappointing sales" is not a neutral description
  •   Done "disappointing" → "low"
1982–87
Film career breakthrough, musical hiatus
  • "Her earliest entertainment ambitions had been in film, as opposed to music; but she had" → "While she had previously aspired to venture into film, she had"
  • "take her seriously as an actor"..... actress
  • Explain how Silkwood was controversial
  • "For her engaging and nearly flawless performance" is pure fancruft
  • Just focus on the Golden Globe win for Silkwood
  • Not sure the David Letterman show paragraph is needed
  • If anything, I feel the Ferrari crashing ordeal would be better for an article on Rob Camilletti

More to come..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:27, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

1987–92
Film stardom, third musical comeback
  • "the RIAA-certified platinum Cher" → "Cher, which was certified platinum by the RIAA"
  • Again, "hit" in "top-ten hit" (both instances) is too informal
  • I've heard of People being used for personal life details, but they're not exactly entertainment critics last I checked
  • When did Cher at the Mirage air?
  • The "three new songs" from Greatest Hits: 1965–1992 should be mentioned by name, and "Cher's" is not part of its title
1992–97
Health and professional struggles, low-profile projects
  • It's a difficult task, since her infomercials aired between 1992 and 1994. I have the exact date for the Saturday Night Live parody (May 8, 1993) from SNL's online archive, but couldn't find online archives for the David Letterman shows. Based on the time period during which the infomercials aired, the Letterman parody could be aired on both Late Show and Late Night; we can't deduce from that. :/ Lordelliott (talk) 02:22, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would add "them" after "considered" in "critics considered a sellout"
  • Only the original release for It's a Man's World is needed, and you don't have to specify a location for releases unless it's only released in one or two nations like Greatest Hits: 1965–1992 was
  • I've said it before and I'll say it again; "hit" is too informal for songs
  • Give specific examples of how she was praised for the Faithful film
  •   Done "Although the film received negative reviews from critics, Cher was praised for her role; The New York Times Janet Maslin wrote that she 'does her game best to find comic potential in a victim's role.'" Lordelliott (talk) 23:58, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she also starred as a doctor murdered by an anti-abortion fanatic" should end with a period, not a semi-colon
  • "it drew the highest ratings for an original HBO movie to date"..... a figure is needed

Let's get these out of the way. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:05, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

1998–2000
Death of Sonny Bono, fourth musical comeback
  • "moving eulogy" is not neutral
  • Is "affectionate" really an appropriate description for the CBS special?
  • "It's not that I think this is a '70s album ... but there's a thread, a consistency running through it that I love" should just use " quotation marks (it currently begins with a ' mark and ends with '")
  • It would help to give UK and US figures for the "Believe" song sales
  •   Done "'Believe' topped the UK Singles Chart for seven weeks and became the biggest-selling single of all time by a female artist in the UK, selling over 1.7 million copies in the country as of November 2013. It also topped the Billboard Hot 100 chart for four weeks, selling over 1.8 million units in the U.S. as of December 1999." Lordelliott (talk) 06:09, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "most watched program in the television network's history"..... again, provide a figure
  • I'd note when Live in Concert aired
  • "earned critical accolades for her performance"..... did you mean "critical acclaim"?
2001–13
Touring success, Vegas residency, return to film
  • "lent her voice to an animated character"..... let's be more specific and at least say her character was a lioness
2013–present
Return to music and touring, Broadway project
  • "entered the Billboard 200 at number three in September 2013"..... actually, it debuted on the chart in October
  • "saying this indeed would" → "saying this would actually"
  • "The fashion designer was cited, saying" → "The fashion designer stated"
  • The “ and ” marks should be " for "This has been a dream of mine for a very, very long time." per MOS:QUOTEMARKS

And with that, "Life and career" is complete. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:40, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Artistry
Music
  • "almost perfect song selection" sounds biased when not used as part of a quote
  • "hits" (all instances) is too informal
  • "either about a woman expressing her love for another woman, or a woman breaking up with a gay male she loved" is really close paraphrasing to AllMusic's "either about a woman expressing her love for another woman, or a woman saying au revoir to a gay male she loved"; use your own words or convert this into a quote
Voice
  • I don't think we need "distinctive" to describe her contralto voice
Films, music videos, and performances
  • There is no previous establishment of who "Negra" is
  • You don't need to link to the music video section of "Hell on Wheels"
  • Elaborate on why MTV banned the video for "If I Could Turn Back Time", and you also don't have to link to the music video section of that
  •   Done "Deemed 'controversial' for her performance on a Navy warship, straddling a cannon, and wearing a leather thong that revealed her tattooed buttocks, the 1989 music video for "If I Could Turn Back Time" was the first ever to be banned by MTV." Lordelliott (talk) 17:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fashion
  • To be honest, I'm not sure how this fits under "artistry"; it's probably better to place in "public image"
  • We don't need to state how many times she was on the cover of Vogue
  • Not sure why the statement on her navel is tagged with a "dubious" tag for its citation; The Independent is very much reliable
  • "She has worn wigs since her 1970s TV shows" is too trivial to include

I'll do the "Public Image" section next round. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:48, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Public Image
  • Do we really need to mention rumors of plastic surgery (even if it's her denying them) or state where she has tattoos?
  • "She commented"..... I think stated would be better in this instance
  • The last paragraph seems rather short and should probably be merged with the fourth per MOS:PARAGRAPHS (if not expanded), which discourages really long and really short paragraphs
  • "most beautiful women of history" sounds biased when not part of a quote or title
Other interests
Philanthropy
Politics

"Legacy and influence" will be next..... Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:58, 12 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy and influence
  • Not sure about the use of "daring" in "daring outfits"; a better term would be "unconventional"
  • Is "Salon" reliable? If not, its commentary isn't worth including.
Achievements and recognition
  • "notching" reads awkwardly; try "holding"
  • "number-one hit"..... song
  • "three of the four major American entertainment awards (EGOT)"..... while I personally know that "EGOT" stands for "Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony", not everyone reading this article will automatically recognize the term, so I'd give the specific award names. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Discography
  • Looks good
Filmography
  • The Player, Prêt-à-Porter, and Zookeeper are missing; if having a "filmography" section that list films and has a separate article for filmography, we should list all films mentioned in the article body just like how the disocgraphy section lists all studio albums and there's a separate discography page
References
  • "Daily News" should read "New York Daily News"
  • As noted above, I'm not sure how reliable "Salon" is
  • New York Post isn't exactly the best source to use, and isn't really needed anyway when better citations are already included for Cher exposing her naval

And that's all from me! Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:42, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am REALLY happy and thankful for all the input you gave to this article. I can't wait to nominate it for Good Article; actually, that's what I'll do in the next few minutes! :-) Hope you have a great break time and wish to see you soon. Lordelliott (talk) 03:10, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to help, but DO NOT nominate while this in the middle of an RFC; I guarantee it would fail for stability. Wait until that concludes before nominating. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:35, 13 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Questions from Lordelliott

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