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Wikipedia:Peer review/Enter Sandman/archive1

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Enter Sandman

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I've been working on this article in my sandbox and I finally transferred the work into the article. Yo can see the differences here. I've submitted the article for WP:GAC, but it has a big backlog, so I thought I may just go into peer review as well. I'd like to see this article featured, I know it's hard, I have tried but never got one, only Good articles and Featured Lists. Anyway, I think, and comparing to other songs Featured Articles, that this article has the potential to become one. Any concerns will be addressed. Copyediting and grammar issues probably exist, so any help on that would be great.


Thanks,

Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 23:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When I read your comment, I thought "Yeah, I remember that!" but I've researched and it was Metallica's Whiplash the song they won the grammy with, not Enter Sandman. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, yes they did win for Whiplash. But for this cover, they were nominated for Best Metal Performance at the 2000 Grammy's. Check [[1]] this source. LuciferMorgan 14:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'm really sorry I didn't understand you. (Embarassed) Thank you. I have checked that and added to the article.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 23:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have a book that analyzes classic songs from a musical perspective and there's an entry on "Enter Sandman". I'll try to cite some information from it for this article. Also, mention some of the chart information in the reception section. I'm pretty sure "Enter Sandman" was Metallica's first gold single in the US. WesleyDodds 09:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The music and lyrics section is poor in my opinion, I've spent a lot of time on that and I'm not happy. If your book has good information.. that'd be good :-). I'll research on Enter Sandman being "Metallica's first gold single in the US". Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I researched and found out that it became a gold single on September 30 1991 and it was Metallica's second single to achieve that. The first was One. I did the research here. Thanks for the tip, information added to the article.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was searching through the New York Times archives at nytimes.com and was surprised to discover how many articles reference the use of "Enter Sandman" in baseball games, especially for particular players. You might want to expand on that in the article. WesleyDodds 00:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip. Oh, and does your book have anything about the lyrics and theme of the song? It would be helpful. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your addition. It was something I wanted to talk about but never really found how to do it. That tritone is important throughout the entire song, it is in every riff and gives it that great sound. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

M3tal H3ad

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  • The song was written by guitarists Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield and drummer Lars Ulrich. Hetfield wrote lyrics to the song, which are about nightmares. Does this sentence mean Hammet, Ulrich and Hetfield wrote the music, while only Hetfield wrote the lyrics?
  • After you mention someone with their full name wikilinked only refer to them using their second name -> until Lars Ulrich suggested that
  • The lyrics featured in the song are not the original: This is awkward wording how about - Hetfield felt the original lyrics were too commercial and felt he had to re-write them to ....
  • did not feature lyrics or vocals. Vocals and lyrics are the same thing. How about ' An instrumental demo was recorded on.......
  • Wikilink Bob Rock's first mention in the body
  • between 40 and 50 microphones for the drums and different combinations - what exactly does different combinations refer to here?
  • took about 10 days - i don't believe 'about' sounds very encyclopedic, how about 'roughly?
  • the band and Bob Rock had to find on "Enter Sandman" "the sound" for the rest of the album. - sentence needs re-writing
  • After releasing a musically complex album - according to whom is it complex?
  • Avoid one sentence paragraphs - won't become an FA with them
  • and All Music Guide has complimented the song's breakdown - State whom opinion's it is. AMG has lots of people who review music, state Chris True of All Music....
  • Only Lars Ulrich felt, even "before recorded" according to Bob Rock, that "Enter Sandman" was "the song". This doesn't make much sense. I had to read it about 3 times to understand it.
  • "Enter Sandman" made the headlines during the invasion of Iraq in 2003, - seems important but is only one sentence long. Surely it can be expanded by an article that is like 10 paragraphs long.
  • The fair use of the music video states "The image adds significantly to the article." What exactly does it add? It shows us that James has a mustache and long hair. People will point this out at the FA.

Good work altogether. Nice to see another editor willing to edit heavy metal articles. I'll give more feedback later. M3tal H3ad 11:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll address each issue, one by one.
  1. Yes, that was what I meant. Do you think it needs to be reworded?
  2.   Done
  3. I meant he thought the song sounded commercial, and he tried to write lyrics not too commercial to kind of... "balance" the thing. I'm not sure how to explain it in the article. It isn't clear in the text, I see. And as he wrote the lyrics, for the first time in Metallica's history, somebody told him the lyrics could be better and he wrote new ones. I'll try to reword that. I like to give as much information possible in each sentence, with little redundancy, but sometimes it's difficult to write sentences well and English is not my native language.
  4.   Done
  5. Unless I am missing something, he is wikilinked in the first mention, in the lyrics part.
  6. It's Staub who uses the word combinations. I think he means combinations like "Let's see how the drums sound if I put a mic here and a mic there" for instance. But, maybe it's better to remove that word and not speculate, huh?
  7.   Done
  8. Hum. I think you understand what I mean, but I'm not sure how do you think it's correct to explain. They had to "create" the sound for the album, the way the instruments and the voice sounded and Enter Sandman being the first song to be mixed, took about 10 days. I don't have any idea on how to reword that, so I'll think about it. But I agree with you.
  9. According to Lars Ulrich himself. And an All Music Guide review that I have just inserted.
  10. OK
  11.   Done
  12. "According to Bob Rock, Lars Ulrich was the only band member that felt that "Enter Sandman" was "the song", even before recording." Better?
  13. Another sentence added, explaining the intentions.
  14. Great laugh. Hum, I "studied" Smells Like Teen Spirit, which is a FA, and it has a picture of Cobain in the video. You have a point. I wouldn't say again that it adds significantly to the article, but it adds to a section of the article that discusses the music video.
Thanks for the help.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 18:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

J Milburn

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Nice work. Couple of things that are are bothering me-

  • The intro seems a little choppy, single line paragraphs are bad. Perhaps bring the second two lines together?
  • "guitarists Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield and drummer Lars Ulrich." Multiple use of 'and' looks poor, at least in my opinion- how about "guitarists Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield, as well as drummer Lars Ulrich."?
  • "The Metallica (album) was recorded..." I don't like this at all. Conventionally, we would just say "Album name was recorded", however, I see the need to disambiguate beyond just the italics here, so how about "The album Metallica was recorded..." or "Metallica, [quick fact about the album], was recorded..."
  • "For "Enter Sandman" "close to 50" takes of the drums were recorded, according to engineer Randy Staub, because Ulrich did not record the song in its entirety; he recorded the each section of the song separately." The two quotes next to each other threw me for a moment, and the rest of the line seemed a little odd. Why not say "According to engineer Randy Staub, "close to 50" takes of the drums were recorded for "Enter Sandman", due to the fact Ulrich did not record the song in its entirety; instead recording each section of the song separately."
  • "on "Enter Sandman" "the sound" for the rest..." again, quote quote, but this line has already been mentioned.
  • First line of 'Music and lyrics', ...And Justice for All is not italicised.
  • In the second sample box, "The whole song evolved from the main riff, wrote by guitarist Kirk Hammett." Shouldn't that be 'written'?
  • "Lyrically, the song is about "nightmares and all that come with them"." According to whom, and avoid single line paragraphs. Is there no one else who has commented on the lyrics?
  • ""Enter Sandman"'s main riff has been defined as "sinister"[10] and All Music Guide has complimented the song's breakdown that "brilliantly utilizes that “now I lay me down to sleep” bedtime prayer in such a way to add to the scary movie aspect of the song".[8]" By who, and by who? (Something that LuciferMorgan picked me up on a few weeks ago. You live and learn!)
  • "first single of Metallica (album)." Again, referring to it as Metallica (album) seems poor. Not certain how to fix this; anyone got any ideas?

Nipping off for my lunch now, I will take another look in a few minutes. J Milburn 11:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

One by one, again...
  1.   Done Better?
  2. I see what you mean, but isn't using "as well as" redundancy for "and"?
    No, as I see it- "guitarists Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield, as well as drummer Lars Ulrich" is structured like this- "guitarists= [Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield], (as well as) drummer= [Lars Ulrich]." See what I mean? You are not listing three members, you are listing two instruments and the members who play them. I've explained that poorly, but it's hard to say what I mean! J Milburn 23:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Done Hope it's better now.
  4.   Done, but replaced due to the fact for because. hope it's fine.
  5. I'll have to think about that line.
  6.   Done
  7.   Done Yes it should.
  8. That's one of the things I'm still researching. There's not a lot about that from reliable sources. Rolling Stone mentions it is probably the first metal lullaby, but I'm not sure if that belongs in the article. Mentioned who said it.
    Yeah, I think that belongs. An interesting and relevant opinion from an excellent source. J Milburn 23:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  9.   Done live and learn
  10. Only if we forbid bands from releasing self-titled albums. I could use The Black Album when mentioning the article. Band members themselves sometimes refer to the album that way in the documentary I have about it. Done here.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 18:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    To be honest, I think you'll be fine with "Metallica". The fact it is in italics tells us that it is the album. Of course, this makes the article slightly less accessible to a non-editor, and I think "The Black Album" or, preferably, "the album, Metallica" or even just "the album" would be fine, and, as I see it, all slightly better than what is being used now. J Milburn 23:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, back, more suggestions-

  • Ah, you use the phrase Metallica (album) a lot more times. I would seriously not do that, and just change them to Metallica, and, where possible, say things like "the album Metallica"
  • ""Enter Sandman" became "one of the most recognizable songs of all time" "worldwide"" I gather the latter two quotes are both from AMG, so why not phrase it as ""Enter Sandman" became "one of the most recognizable songs of all time... worldwide""
  • Magazine titles (Rolling Stone, Total Guitar) should be italicised.
  • ""Enter Sandman" "tell[s] the tale" of the album's "detail and dynamic", "song structures and impact of individual tracks"." That threw me. First of all, perhaps it is worth mentioning which writer said that, and secondly, it's an awfully complex sentence. Perhaps it would be worth melding some of the quotes with ellipses?
  • ""Enter Sandman" was the second music video Metallica has released, the first from Metallica (album)." This doesn't seem quite right- why not 'and the first' or 'but the first'? Also, I think a semicolon is more appropriate than a comma.
  • The plot of the video has no references. I am not exactly sure how you reference plot summaries, it isn't something I have done before.
  • All the DVDs and albums mentioned in 'Appearances and covers' should be italicised.
  • "BBC apologized Metallica fans..."- Shouldn't that be "The BBC apologized to Metallica fans..."?
  • Again, the game title Rock Band is not italicised.
  • Absolutely agree that the Iraq invasion part could do with expansion- that is a very interesting and relevant point.
  • "At that time, Apocalyptica were four cellists and Plays Metallica by Four Cellos was their debut album." This implies that it is no longer their debut album. Perhaps it would be best to mention that it was the debut album further up the box (would "1996 debut album" make sense?) and maybe 'Apocalypitca was made up of' or 'consisted of' rather than 'were'.
  • For aesthetic purposes, I would put the refs in 'Chart positions' next to the position, rather than the chart.
  • There is a Richard Cheese category, yet he is not mentioned in the article.

Over all, great article, I can see it getting to FA very soon. J Milburn 12:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And now here...

  1. discussed above.
  2.   Done
  3.   Done
  4.   Done I think.
  5.   Done Used a semi-colon. So I shouldn't use an "and", right? Punctuation is hard for me, because it doesn't follow the same rules of my native language, which uses much more.
    Erm, I'm not actually red-hot on semi-colon use myself, and now it doesn't look great to me. Perhaps ""Enter Sandman" was the second music video released by Metallica, but the first from their self-titled album." J Milburn 23:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  6. It has no references, but, I think references are for material that is likely to be challenged and when I wrote that, I felt I didn't say anything POV or likely to be challenged. It's pretty clear for those who watch the video. I'll try to find something to back that up, but if I don't, I think I'll leave it as it is.
  7.   Done
  8.   Done
  9.   Done
  10.   Done
  11.   Done
  12.   Done
  13. Richard Cheese is just one of the many artists who released a cover version of Enter Sandman. I wasn't going to mention on the article every artist, so I mentioned Motorhead (probably the most important, as they were a huge influence for Metallica), Apocalyptica and Pat Boone on the covers section. Do you think I should add him? It's just that he's just another artist who covered and I don't think that just because someone added that category to the text is a reason good enough to put him there. But I'll do it if you think it's better.

Thanks for your help--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 20:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have responded to all the issues you raised, but if I missed any or if you have more, feel free to tell me. Thanks a lot for the help.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 23:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cricket02

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  • Music Video: The plot of the music video directly relates to the theme of the song and combines shots of the band playing with images of a child having nightmares and of an old man. The child dreams he is drowning, falling from the top a building and being chased by a truck and falling from a mountain while escaping it. During the part of the song in which the child recites a prayer, the child is seen praying while being watched by the old man. This is unreferenced and seems to be original research.
No. But the section seems pretty neutral to me, so it may be okay. Need a more expert opinion. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have added a reference from a review on PopMatters. It doesn't cover everything said on the article about the plot of the video, but covers a good part. --Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Appearances and covers: Need a Ref for the caption in the sample box.
  • Sportsmen have used "Enter Sandman" as their entrance music in baseball and wrestling.[8][9] I wonder if "Sportsmen" is the correct word? Hmmm, I don't think so.
    • I'm sorry but I don't understand why not. English is not my native language as I have said, but sportsmen is a word that exists, I even went to the dictionary to check. Is there any other word for people who play sports?--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, "Sportsmen" are people who play the sports, but are probably not the ones who pick the entrance music (which is how I understood the sentence to read). Maybe say something like, "Enter Sandman" has been used as entrance music at sporting events such as baseball and wrestling. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I actually believe some of them do. Wrestlers and baseball players have a specific song every time they go on to the rink/pitch. But I've changed anyway to include usage college football. I'm not sure weather to mention specific sportsmen or teams, people can find them in the references.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dates use an inconsistent format - choose one method and stick with it. See WP:MOS#Dates.
    • Dates with day, month and year are wikilinked. years are wikilinked. the only ones who aren't are when there is a month and a year. How should I wikilink that? October 1990? Other than that, I may be missing on the inconsistency. I'm sorry, it's just that when you work on an article too much, you tend to miss the things that are obvious to others.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, believe me. I know all too well about looking at an article too much. Anyway, I should have been more specific. What I meant was that in one place you use September 13, 1990 (month-day-year) and then in another you use 13 August 1991 (day-month-year). Either way is correct, just be consistent throughout. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see that when I'm looking at the article as a regular user. I'll have to look on it in the code. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it does need italicising- it isn't a periodical, which is the reason we italicise other publications. See the appropriate MoS section. On another note- nice to see you again! J Milburn 18:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And you too J...:) Okay, scratch that...:)
  • In the text alone - I counted 32 uses of the term "Enter Sandman". That is a bit exhausting to read. Would change some of them to "The single" or the "The song", or even "It", etc. Try to incorporate some other synonyms.
Much better, yes. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I found the whole article hard to read, the flow is quite choppy and much is redundant, but author did say English is not primary language. I did some minor copyediting for punctuation, etc., but I didn't want to step on any toes with regards to rewording any of it. It needs a good copyedit for prose.
There's no hurry, and it will take time. You've done really good so far so don't get discouraged. I've tried to help in a few places but prose is not my strong point. My advice is to walk away from it for a day or two and come back and look at it fresh. It does help. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs always after punctuation. -- I think I fixed them all by either adding punctuation or moving the ref, but another look wouldn't hurt.
  • As much as I hate to say this, grrrr, because I believe the use of fair-use screenshots is harmless; but the screenshot will be challenged at some point for failing WP:NFCC#8.
I'm afraid I'm not in a position to say absolutely what would be acceptable, but I do know that without "sourced" critical commentary, it definately won't fly. Sourced critical commentary of the video itself would at least give a screenshot a fighting chance of staying in. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • And if I may add, so far you've gotten a peer review above from some of the best editors on Wikipedia, and if you stick with their lead, this article will go far. (I only know from experience)  :) Good luck. ♫ Cricket02 18:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. If you need anything, let me know. ♫ Cricket02 06:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seegoon

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I haven't read through everyone else's input, so apologies if I repeat anything.

  • The opening paragraph is weak. It has no flow. I'd change it to something like this:
"Enter Sandman" is a song by American heavy metal band Metallica, taken from their self-titled [or "eponymous" - whichever you prefer] 1991 album. It was written by guitarists Kirk Hammett and James Hetfield, along with drummer Lars Ulrich. The lyrics, penned [or "written", if you feel "penned is" too informal] by Hetfield, deal with nightmares [or "the topic fo nightmares" or something, to flesh it out].
    • Is it better now?
  • "tried to write lyrics about what he described as "destroy the perfect family; a huge horrible secret in a family"" - this is confusing. What he described as destroy the perfect family? That makes no sense.
  • "he could write better lyrics for the song, the first time anyone suggested that to Hetfield and he agreed" - this is a tad clumsy too. Maybe "which was the first time Hetfield had ever agreed to that suggestion".
    • Well, not only it was the first time he agreed, it was the first time anyone ever suggested that. What if I remove "and he agreed"? "the first time ever anyone suggested that to him."?--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Metallica wanted to write simpler songs their self-titled album[1] and "Enter Sandman" is a departure from their previous works" - I don't think "and" cuts it here. Maybe "therefore", or "due to that" or something more functional as a connector.
  • "Initially, "Holier Than Thou" was thought to be the opening track" - "thought"? Maybe "slated" to be the opening track, or "chosen". Likewise, "first single of the album Metallica", is, I think, unnecessary. We know Metallica is an album, and I think "from" is more fitting than "of".
  • "in which he explained the rest of the band his point of view" - shouldn't this be "explained to the band"?
  • In fact, the whole first paragraph in "Release and reception" is a little vague, and doesn't really explain why the decision was made.
  • "The album was a huge commercial success that debuted at #1 on US charts[13] and sold over 15 million copies worldwide[14] and "Enter Sandman" became" - you use "and" twice here. Try to vary things a little. For instance: "The album was a huge commercial success that debuted at #1 on US charts[13] and sold over 15 million copies worldwide[14], leading to "Enter Sandman" becoming".
  • "Apart from the nominations to the entire album" - maybe this should be "apart from the nominations the album in its entirety received"?
  • You wikilink All Music Guide more than is necessary, and Rolling Stone should be in italics whenever it's mentioned.
  • In "Music video", three consecutive sentences start with "it is". Try to vary things a little.
    • Is it better now? "Enter Sandman" was the second music video Metallica released, but the first from their self-titled album. Recorded on 3 July 1991 in Los Angeles, it premiered on 30 July 1991, two weeks before the release of the album.[15] The video was the first of six Metallica music videos directed by Wayne Isham.[23]"--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this gives you something to work with. I'll gladly help out more if you ask. Seegoon 17:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Tomorrow I'll work on the suggestions I haven't been able to address yet and also on the prose.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 00:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update from Serte

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OK, two days without any reply. Other than a copyedit, any issue you'd like to address? I'll be trying to do my best with English, check the Manual of Style for some things. I added something: during the Load tour, Metallica used to stage a destruction scene during "Enter Sandman" as can be seen on the DVD Cunning Stunts. Also, I'd like to have help on the line: "The mixing of the song took roughly 10 days because the band and Bob Rock had to find on it "the sound" for the rest of the album". To help you help me, what I mean with this is: Every song in an album has a similar sound, the way the guitars sound, the drums, the production, and so on. And Enter Sandman was the first song to be mixed, so it took a lot of time, 10 days, because they had to "create" the sound for the record in the mix. Any suggestion on how to say this in an encyclopedic way? Thanks for your help.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, I just found this: [2] WesleyDodds 10:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cool find, I'll have a look at it. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 18:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Good article now. I need more feedback as I'm thinking of submitting the article for WP:FAC. Do you think it'll pass? If not, why not? --Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The prose needs to be improved. I assume you've looked at other songs FAs like "Hollaback Girl" and "Smells Like Teen Spirit"; those two in particular are sound models to follow. Personally I'll take a crack at the prose at some point, but it may not be soon. WesleyDodds 00:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a deeper look at those FAs and try to learn with them, but it's hard for me to improve the prose as English is not my first language. Whenever you can help, it'd be good, because you already have lots of FA experience which I have almost none and I feel this article could be my first FA. I'll check those out. Thanks--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 10:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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