Wikipedia:Peer review/Iravan/archive1

Iravan

• A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for July 2009.

This peer review discussion has been closed.
The article has been a GA since 5th June. The article is about a character from the Hindu epic Mahabharata, who is worshipped as a South-Indian village god and has prominence among Indian eunuchs and transvestites. I would like to hear comments considering FA criteria. I would also like to hear any excessive use of jargon, which is hindering readability. Any more information needed for comprehensiveness.

Thanks, Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:09, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: I have read through the article, and left detailed comments on the first few sections. This looks like an important article, but I wonder if it could be made a little more user-friendly to to those unfamiliar with Hindu deities and their associated myths? Parts of the article are rather over-detailed, and a full copyedit would certainly be beneficial. Here are my detailed comments on the opening sections:-

• Lead
  • It is not clear from the first sentence that Iravan/Aravan is a mythic figure; this might confuse readers unfamiliar with Hindu deities.

What do you sugeest? The epic Mahabharata is the Illiad of Hinduism. It discusses proto-historic figures. the Hindu epic Mahabharata, was supposed to imply Hindu mythology.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • "Aravan is worshipped in this form of his severed head..." Should "this" be "the"?

Since the severed head is introduced before ("The severed head of Aravan is a common motif..."), I felt "this form" was OK.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• Etymology and other names
  • The first two paragraphs give two apparently different origins of the Sanskrit name "Iravan". Can these explanations be reconciled? Also, each paragraph begins "According to...", which looks repetitive.

In Sanskrit, a word can mean many things. So the difference of opinion. iḍā is the connector between the paras and the wird with different meanings.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Unnecssary colon in final sentence

Done. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:53, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• Origins of the legend
  • "The tale it is later retold by Villiputuralvar..." Has an extra "it" crept in here?

Done --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • There is a habit, particularly prevalent in this section, of making paranthetical asides. This interferes with the prose flow, and should be avoided. For example, the sentence "The tale it is later retold by Villiputuralvar in his Makaparatam (14th century) and by Nallapillai (18th century)" should be rewritten: "The tale is later retold by Villiputuralvar in his 14th century Makaparatam and by Nallapillai in the 18th century."

Done.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • "...who is suited as a sacrifice" - what does "suited" mean in this context?

the candidate that suits the requirements of the sacrifice. Explained in detail in Legends. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • "...in various forms of Koothu." I offer this as an example of an incomprehensible phrase (to Western eyes).

Reworded. Any other jargon, you notice. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • "On the 18th day of the festival (April-May), it is celebrated in Karambai to please Draupadi, the stepmother of Aravan and wife of Arjuna." I presume that "it" is the ceremony referred to in the preceding sentence, so the sentence should read: " It is celebrated in Karambai on the 18th day of the festival (April-May), to please Draupadi, the stepmother of Aravan and wife of Arjuna." But again we have those intrusive parentheses.

Reworded. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:04, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• Mahabharata
  • "rebirth _ should this be "reincarnation"?

In Hinduism, "rebirth" is used for non-deities. Reincarnation or incarnation used for avatars of deities. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • "Arjuna requested his assistance him in Kurukshetra War": Should be "Arjuna requested his assistance in the Kurukshetra War"

Done.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Not clear what this phrase means: "versed in illusion"

See Maya for the Indian concept of illusion. It is supposed to mean: not only did Iravan use his weapon-skills to defeat the enemy, he also used tricks a illusionist will use like change into a snake, create illusionary snakes etc. Should I make it "Skilled in illusion". --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

• • Ndashes rather than hyphens should be used.

I never understood the dashes, please give me an example.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I hope these comments are useful. Brianboulton (talk) 11:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: As requested, here are some suggestions for improvement. To me this seems to need a lot more work than Vithoba did.

• The first and last images appear to be of the same statue in Singapore - I prefer the first one and am not sure the second one adds anything to the article. Are there any photos of the exterior of an Iravan temple in India, for example?

Removed image. Will search for images. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Brianboulton's comments above - I like the sentence describing the article from the PR at top as a better mode lead sentence Iravan is "a character from the Hindu epic Mahabharata, who is worshipped as a South-Indian village god and has prominence among Indian eunuchs and transvestites".

great suggestion. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

• I also wonder if eunuch is the right word - I think most people think of eunuchs as castrated males, but from reading here it seems that a better term might be Hijra (South Asia) and most are not castrated (and some may not even be genetically male).

Hijra (South Asia) is a northern term, ali is a southern-indian equivalent. The word "eunch" is used to denote them in Indian English--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:18, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm - OK, thanks - can some of this explanation be added to the article? As someone who does not speak Indian English, I had a very different idea when I read Eunuch.

• The etymology and other names section third paragraph has no references and needs at least one. There are also direct quotations in the second aragraph which should have refs at the end of the sentence per MOS:QUOTE. I also wonder if the sentence Madeleine Biardeau describes religious use of the word iḍā as reference to an "oblatory substance consumed by the participants from which comes all fecundity of the sacrifice". needs a better ref - it seems to currently be referenced as coming from one of the works by Hiltebeitel.

Madeleine Biardeau is quoted in the Hiltebeitel book. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Iravat" is only in the lead and should be mentioned again in the Etymology section.

It is mentioned as irāvat - इरावत्. The name Iravan and Iravat in Sanskrit is same. Iravat is the root and Iravan is the nominative singular form, form of the root used as a noun. Now some scholars choose Iravan, some Iravat.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I knew I should have studied Sanskrit - thanks for clarifying this. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• I found the Etymology section confusing - it seemed to lack a clear thread to follow. I wonder if the Etymology and Origins of the legend sections might be combined into and "Origins and etymology" section. This could start with the Mahabharata (presumably the earliest know mention of Iravan) and then go on to the etymology in Sanskrit. In any case, I would give a date for the Mahabharata so the reader has some idea how old it is. If the proposed combined section would be too long, could it be split into a Mahabharata and Sanskrit section and a later southern India legends and Tamil section?

The Etymology basically can be summarized as: ida/ira + vat -> Iravat -> Iravan. Giving a date of Mahabharata is giving the exact date of the Iliad or the Bible. They all have "disputed" dates. I would prefer Etymology and Origins to be separate as names are important to Hindu deities in the religious aspect, origins can have a non-religious aspect, parallel myths which are not related to the names. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, understood - I was just thinking that the article on the Mahabarata itself says in the lead Its earliest layers probably date back to the late Vedic period (ca. 8th c. B.C.E.)[2] and it probably reached its final form by the time the Gupta period began (ca. 4th c. C.E.).[3] which at least gives some idea to the casual reader of how old the epic is. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• I read for comprehension, so I do not have specific examples, but this really needs a copyedit to polish the prose. There are words spelled incorrectly, odd verb choices (I recall an odd use of "combatted "), etc.

I will ask for professional help. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

• The Worship section could use a map to show the districts mentioned. I also question the usefulness of a list of 32 temples when 31 are red links.

If I don't list the 32 central temples of Aravan, Hindu wikipedians will question the article's comprehensiveness. Temples are central to Hinduism. It is very difficult to make a non-Hindu understand, but without the list, it would be like not writing about Mecca and Medina in article about Islam. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Could some stubs be made? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I was not disputing their notability or inclusion in the article - another way to aks the question is do they have to be linked at all now? There is no requirement that articles be free of red links for FAC, but a block of 31 red links just looks odd in the midst of an otherwise very comprehensive article. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• Is there a sexual aspect to the weddings to Aravan (are they somehow consumated)?

"To fulfill this wish in the Kuttantavar cult myth, Krishna turned into Mohini, the enchantress, married Aravan, and spent the night with him." The legends do not describe the events of night, but intend consummation. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to be unclear - I meant do the modern eunuchs "spend the night" with someone to consummate their marriages to Iravan? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Some Alis do spend nights with people during the festival, but then they act as prostitutes in their usual lives too, an explicit connection to the marriage is not stated. Married men and men (non-ali) afflicted with disease, who marry Aravan do NOT practise "spending the night" thingie.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification - not sure if this should be added or not - perhaps if it comes upo again as a question in FAC. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I am calling it a night - hope this helps. Will reread the article and try to make a few more comments soon. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog. Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. Acting on it. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Etymology section still confusing??? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it reads much more clearly now (of course I have read the material several times), but I think the section and the parts I reread are smoother / clearer. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)