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Wikipedia:Peer review/John Thirtle/archive1

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John Thirtle

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I've listed this article about the 19th century artist for peer review because I would like it to be as ready as possible before I nominate it for FA.

Thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:04, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by-comments by LM150

edit

LM150 15:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not an art expert, but these are some prose issues I saw from a quick read:

  • "never documented" > undocumented?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:59, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "only an outline of his business activities, family life and his place as an artist in Norwich is known." - just wondering if we need to write this? The purpose of the article is to exactly describe this. Or perhaps reword this, eg. "scarce details exist about his business activities"
Text removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:02, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and for a time its vice-president" > and briefly served as its vice-president
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Unhappily, the quality.." - who was unhappy?
Point taken, word removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:05, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • substantiated by documents" - substantiated may be too formal, perhaps verified, confirmed, proven?
Agreed, word replaced. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "22nd June 1777" > 22 June
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nothing is known of Thirtle's early boyhood or education." > no need for 'early'. We know his education consisted of apprenticeships, so that sentence isn't completely true!
Quite correct, text now amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:20, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • On successfully completing his apprenticeship" > on the successful completion of his apprenticeship?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:22, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "led to his becoming" > led to him being?
No, ..becoming sounds correct to me. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:23, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "can be dated as being before 1837, the year he died." - didn't he die in 1839?
Ooops, thanks. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the first British art movement to be created" > no need for 'to be'
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His exhibited miniatures.." > he exhibited
Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:30, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "whose father was "of some means" - is there a missing word here? eg. whose father was supported by "of some means"
I've replaced the phrase, to help convey the idea he was quite wealthy. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "John and Elizabeth were married.." > Thirtle and Elizabeth?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:35, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "probably no children" - in some instances of 'probably', you might be able to use 'likely' instead
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Z1720

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I am also not an art expert, but I will still review this. I am going to assess as if it was an FAC.

Lede

  • "are considered to be outstanding in the history of watercolour painting." I'm concerned that this doesn't meet the disinterested voice outlined in WP:YESPOV. Is there another descriptor we can use besides outstanding? Can we describe in a half-sentence why they are considered outstanding?
Looking at it again, I can see why it might concern you. Text edited out. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:07, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "reduced his artistic output up to his death in 1839." If this reduction is throughout his whole life, then we cannot consider it a reduction. If the reduction happened at a certain point in his life (like in his older age) then that should be specified.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "form a separate association" do we know the name of this association?
Added to the lede (already in the main text).
  • "His style, which was influenced by Thomas Girtin," delete "which was"
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:18, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "technically accomplished and individual." What do you mean by individual?
Word removed; where it occurred in the article i have replaced it with a short quote. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:27, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fading of a particular indigo pigment" Delete particular, and do you know the name of this pigment? If so, add it.
The pigment was indigo, text not clarified. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:30, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, my comment was not clear. Do we know the company that made the indigo pigment he used? Does it have a brand name? Do all indigo pigments fade like this? Z1720 (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720: Ah, I see. I'm not sure how to find out where John Thirtle obtained his pigments from, but I do know that natural indigo fades within a few years (the synthetic permanent form was invented in the 1850s). Church's The Chemistry of Paints and Painting (1890) goes into some detail about the properties of indigo. The topic is also touched upon here, I'll add something to the text. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:30, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes art historians can determine the brands of materials someone used. It might be good to include information on the properties of the indigos used at this time, especially if you are making a big deal about how its fading has changed Thirtle's art. Z1720 (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " and to great effect." Delete, we are starting to go into WP:PROMO territory.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Family, early life and apprenticeship

  • "known of his life;" Replace the semi-colon with a period.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Combine the second and third paragraphs of the "Family" section.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:36, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve another apprenticeship, possibly under a Mr. Allwood,[6] again learning to make picture frames.[9]" I would rearrange this to be "In about 1799 Thirtle moved to London to serve an apprenticeship to make picture frames, possibly under a Mr. Allwood." This helps reduce the number of words.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:39, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During his years as an apprentice in London" Replace with "During this apprenticeship".
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "print shop at 96, The Strand," Is this an address? The name of the print shop? Give more detail, please.
 N Not done. This is correct British English, as The Strand is the street in London (linked in the article) and the shop was at No 96. I'm not sure how else it would be written. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I used to live in London, so I am familiar with this address structure. I found it very confusing when I was there, and still do today. Changes not needed. Z1720 (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after Cotman had moved to the capital in about 1798." Delete. This is off-topic and you already stated when Thirtle began their education here.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Return to Norwich and subsequent career

  • In am unable to click on the image in this section. Also, I do not think we include captions like "Click here for more detail" but please confirm with someone more knowledgeable than me before you make changes.
Oops, now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:04, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He is recorded as having returned in 1805," Move this date to the first sentence of this section.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Those of Thirtle's frames that have survived point to his fine craftmanship." I think this is WP:PROMO and comments like this should state in the article who is giving this opinion, not just in the reference.
Text removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:25, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At least one such framed painting, George Vincent's Trowse Meadows, near Norwich, an oil painting on canvas first exhibited in 1828, was copied by Thirtle, who produced the same scene as a watercolour." Too many commas. Can it be reworded?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:32, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Paintings still in Thirtle's original frames can be dated as being before 1839, the year he died." Reword to "Paintings still in Thirtle's frames can be dated from before 1839, the year he died."
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:36, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll pause here and continue once the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments added above, I will make more comments later. Z1720 (talk) 21:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Artistic career

  • "The art historian Marjorie Allthorpe-Guyton has charted Thirtle's development as an artist into four periods:" Remove "has"
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This first sentence is a run-on sentence. Break up the text into multiple sentences.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This landscape painting seems to have been unusual, as many of his early works were portraits and paintings of other subjects, but by then he had begun to increase his output of landscapes, and to stand out as a master of the genre of watercolour painting." I have read this sentence a couple times, and I am very confused. Did Thirtle produce paintings before The Windmill? What date do you refer to in "but by then"?
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Norwich Society of Artists, a group that also included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon." Change to "the Norwich Society of Artists, a which included Vincent, Charles Hodgson, Daniel Coppin, James Stark and Robert Dixon."
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the exhibition Thirtle showed five paintings out of the 71 exhibited by five artists: Crome, Ladbrooke, Hodgson, Dixon and Thirtle himself." I would change to "Thirtle exhibited five paintings as one of the five featured artists." I consider the names of the other artists off-topic.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His exhibited during the first years" Change his to he
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:01, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but afterwards developed to become a landscape artist," Delete afterwards. Also, this sentence has too many commas.
Hopefully now improved. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:03, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage

  • "On 26 October 1812 he married Elizabeth Miles" Change he to Thirtle: New paragraph in a new section needs to define the subject.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:58, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "exhibition of 1811.[24][12]" Put the footnotes in numerical order.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Secession from the Norwich Society of Artists

  • "President of the Society," Give the society's full name here.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in the published work, and he probably" Remove this comma.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Later life

  • "It is known that by 1824 Thirtle was taking on pupils:" Delete "It is known that"
Done.Amitchell125 (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The tomb-chest of John Thirtle and" Delete John
  • Combine the paragraphs in this section together, or expand the prose to make the paragraphs larger.
I've combined a couple of the paragraphs, but not all of them as each one dealt with something different. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:33, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Technique

  • "to the genius of Cotman," Genius is subjective and doesn't describe Cotman's work. Why was Cotman a genius?
Agreed, text amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by producing works that were technically accomplished and, as Walpole notes, produced by" Too many commas.
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The art historian Derek Clifford compared John Crome with Thirtle, describing him as less able to" This phrasing makes it difficult to determine who "him" is. Reword.
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:32, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Allthorpe-Guyton dates it to no earlier than 1810" Can we be more precise about the date?
A-G's estimation was the only one I can find. I'll check elsewhere, just in case more information is out there. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:36, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Use of indigo

  • "that their works were in the past sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle." Reword to "that their works were sometimes incorrectly attributed to Thirtle."
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:05, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This block quote, while interesting, needs its context explained in prose. Why are you including this quote? What is it telling the reader?
Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Legacy

  • "watercolourist is "in the move"" Replace with "watercolourist as "the move""
(text not there now)
  • "and Joshua Cristall;" The semicolon should be a period.
(punctuation now changed)
  • "Nothing written by other than his Treatise, now in the Norwich Castle Museum." Weird grammar.
Sorted (and moved from the section). Amitchell125 (talk) 15:17, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and etcher who was found to have owned 70 of Thirtle's works at the time of his own death in 1861." Delete "was found to have"
Done (and moved from the section). Amitchell125 (talk) 15:19, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my thoughts. I hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 00:06, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: many thanks for taking the time to provide all these suggestions. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia

edit

Since Z1720 reviewed the top of the article, I glanced at Legacy:

  • A or an ?? Allthorpe-Guyton considers his position as a English watercolourist is ...
Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:42, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Previous sentence is about Allthorpe-Guyton ... unclear subject ... He is yet to be regarded as an important artist in his own right and not just a member of the Norwich School of painters.
  • What happened here? Hemingway describes Thirtle as "an outstanding if variable" watercolour artist, whose best work is on a level with the English artists Peter De Wint and Joshua Cristall;[3]
  • What happened here? Nothing written by other than his Treatise, now in the Norwich Castle Museum.[5]

This doesn't look quite ready for peer review and needs to be combed through. I stopped there, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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