Wikipedia:Peer review/John Tyler/archive2

John Tyler

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John Tyler was the unlikely 10th President of the United States, the first person to succeed to the presidency as a result of his predecessor's death. Wehwalt and I intend to take this to FA, and we'd appreciate your feedback.

Thanks, Designate (talk) 15:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neutralhomer comments

According to Checkuser, there are a few references that need updated URLs. Refs #88 and #99 need access dates. Ref #139 is showing up as a deadlink. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:26, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Elizabeth Tyler redirects back to the John Tyler page. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 12:31, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, got those I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good on the reference front. The rest are just changes from "http" to "https", which the prefered is "http", so no worries there. Support; will leave the rest of the article up to the history buffs. :) - Neutralhomer • Talk • 15:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A few copyediting comments, not a complete review. This is my imperfect understanding of what reviewers are looking for at FAC. - Dank (push to talk)

"led him to alliance": not wrong, but "led him to ally" and "led him to an alliance" are more common.
"no attack came. and he dissolved": typo?
" locally-generated funds": locally generated funds, per WP:HYPHEN.
"Congressman's": congressman's
"seats. and served from December 1823 to December 1825.": Personally, I'd delete the sentence fragment.
"The office of governor was determinately powerless": The office of governor was powerless
"By that time of Tyler's election": By the time of Tyler's election
I got down to Presidential election, 1836. The writing is generally quite good. - Dank (push to talk) 04:05, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. —Designate (talk) 14:57, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton

Doing... – in stages, over several days. A couple of minor points to be going on with:

"Her husband elected to the House of Representatives of the Confederate Congress." Incomplete sentence in the Post-presidency section
Tyler's no. 1 presidential ranking could be cited direct to Eland: Eland, Ivan (2009), Recarving Rushmore. The Independent Institute, Oakland CA. ISBN 978-1598-13022-5. Pages 14 and 77–82
I think the "Legacy" section would be better placed before the family details, following on naturallly from the account of his death
Link within Seager quote at end of article: we do not normally use wikilinks within quote, and the "Tippicanoe and Tyler too" link is given earlier in the article anyway.

I guess "just in case" the reader hasn't gotten the reference.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:31, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've only skimmed the article thus far; more considered comments will follow. Brianboulton (talk) 15:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, thank you. I've done those to date except as noted.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First main batch: Infobox

I realise that presidential articles have a more or less standard format for their infoboxes, but is it really necessary to list all 15 of Tyler's children here? The general WP policy on infoboxes is that they contain brief, essential information concerning the subject; I don't think the children's names qualify as that, especially as they are listed again in the main body of the article. Why not summarise: "8 sons, 7 daughters"?

I've collapsed it.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Suggest "notably" rather than "famously" in the first paragraph
Third para: the words "on the death of the incumbent" are redundant (Harrison's death mentioned earlier in sentence)

It's not totally redundant, as J. Adams, Jefferson, and Van Buren (and later, George H.W. Bush) each succeeded by being elected president while vice president. Rephrased.

"forstall" → "forestall" (unless there is a US variant not in OED)
Redundant "still" in 2nd line para 4
Last sentence requires a date: "In 1961 he sided..."

Early life and law career

At the start: "John Tyler" → "Tyler"?

I tend to start from first principles at the start of the article body.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"was born" repeated in first line
Suggest delete "proudly"
"Six rooms" doesn't suggest a "mansion" – especially on a 1200-acre estate.
"went on to study law" → "studied law"

Start in Virginia politics

Second para: the hostilities with Britain can't really be described as "in addition to" the infoghting over the national bank – they are unrelated problems. "As well as..."?

U.S. House of Representatives

"Although he regarded slavery as an evil, and never attempted to justify it, he felt the federal government lacked the authority to abolish it, and never freed any of his slaves." A somewhat puzzling sentence: although he thought the federal government lacked the authority to abolish slavery, he could presumably free his own slaves; if he thought the institution "evil", why didn't he do so?
"Tyler voted against the Missouri Compromise, which admitted both Missouri and Maine, and forbade slavery in states formed from the northern part of the territories." My knowledge of US history is insufficient for me to work out from this whether this means that Missouri was admitted as a slave state, or not.

Return to state politics

"killed his proposal" – "his" needs clarification (Crawford last person mentioned)
"he was considered in the legislative deliberation for the 1824 U.S. Senate election". This is too abstruse for the general reader. I guess it means that the legislature considered him in 1824 as a candidate for the US Senate; if so, can this be stated more plainly?

U.S. Senate

Shouldn't it be to "re-elect" Randolph, since he was the incumbent?

He was appointed, and it looks like he served about a year and three months.

More soon Brianboulton (talk) 10:34, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done down to here. Will respond to more later. Thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Next batch
done to end of "US Senate": Democratic maverick

"Opposing the nominations of a president of his own party was considered "an act of insurgency" against his party." Was considered by...?
"He was particularly offended..." needs to be "Tyler was particularly offended" (the later "Tyler" can be "he")
I would omit the "Still" which opens the fourth para

Break with the party

I am getting muddled. Tyler was a firm opponent of the Federal Bank. When Jackson decides to abolish it, Tyler votes for its continuance because he didn't agree with Jackson's way of abolishing it? How did he think it should have been abolished? And why did Jackson's action create a threat to the economy, when the principle of abolishing the Bank presumably didn't? I am beginning to suspect that Tyler was an oppositionist, who found reasons for opposing even the measures that he agreed with.

Presidential election, 1836

"Taylor remained at his Williamsburg house..." Tyler, I presume? And, unless I've misunderstood something, he didn't move to Williamsburg until the fall of 1837 (see next section)
"but for the only time in American history, the vice presidential election was thrown into the Senate": why was this so? And "thrown into the Senate" would be clearer, to those unfamiliar with US political terminology, if reworded as "decided by the Senate"

National figure

The content of the section does not really accord with the title. The main thrust of the section is Tyler's return to Virginia state politics and his unsuccessful attempt to recover his Senate seat. I'm sure a more appropriate heading could be devised.

Adding Tyler to the ticket

Referring to Harrison as "General Harrison" might confuse; he was previously introduces as "William Henry Harrison". Why not just "Harrison"?
It's some time since Clay was introduced as the Kentucky senator. To avoid "...Clay. "Clay..." you could reword: "Many northern Whigs opposed Clay..."

General election

"This could not entirely be done..." There is a need to clarify "this" – the immediately preceding text refers to something else. Also, "done" needs to be followed by a full stop, not a colon.
"In his journey of nearly two months..." – it took two months to travel from Williamsburg to Columbus?
In the last sentence of the first para I would place "entirely" either just before, or just after, "avoided".
(aside) I tried playing "Tippecanoe and Tyler too" on the piano – couldn't see how the words fit the tune. But I am a terrible pianist.

More to come. Great stuff. Brianboulton (talk) 22:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Third (penultimate) batch: Vice president

I notice, up to this point, that both "Vice President" and "vice president" are used. Is there some point of principle that determines which of these applies? (I see that both versions continue in the rest of the article)

"His Accidency"

"He considered the Presidential oath redundant to his oath as Vice President, but wished to quell any doubt over his accession." I am interpreting this as meaning: "He did not consider that taking the Presidential oath was necessary in addition to his existing oath as Vice President, but took it to quell any doubt over his accession." If I'm right, I think the present text needs a little clarification.
To whom did he deliver his de facto inaugural?

Economic policy and party conflicts

"its final version was not" → "its final version did not" (did not meet Tyler's objections)
It's not clear to what "This practice..." refers
"Secretary of State" should be linked at its earlier mention

Tariff and distribution debate

I think some kind of note needs to be added to explain the circumstances in which Congress can override a presidential veto. (I see that an explanation is given in the next section, but I think it needs to be brought forward)

Impeachment attempt

My understanding is impeachment of a president requires misuse of office – "high crimes and misdemeanors". What "crimes", as distinct from policy differences, was the Whig Congress attributing to Tyler?

Administration and cabinet

No issues in this section

Foreign and military affairs

"Tyler's difficulties in domestic policy were matched by adept accomplishments in foreign policy" – "matched" gives the wrong impression. Perhaps: "Tyler's difficulties in domestic policy contrasted with his adept accomplishments in foreign policy"?
"drew the praise of" → "drew praise from"
"Before such acts, Rhode Island had been following the same constitutional structure that was established in 1663." This reads as though Rhode Island was not under the US Constitution – some clarification necessary

Judicial appointments

Polk has not been mentioned since the lead, so I would give him his full name, and a link

Will complete Friday or Saturday. Brianboulton (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Last instalment

Annexation of Texas

"Secretary Webster, opposed, convinced Tyler to focus on Pacific initiatives until later in his term." Does not read as a full sentence. Needs "who was" before "opposed".

Early attempts

Where was Gilmer's letter published, and by whom was it well received?
"...as his new Secretary of State, and nominated Gilmer to fill his former office." Confusion arises from "his" and "his" applying to two people. The second should be "Upshur's" – although this will create some repetition.

Princeton disaster

"For Tyler, any hope of completing the Texas plan before November (and with it, any hope of re-election) was instantly dashed". I think you need to specifiy that it was the deaths of Tyler's political allies that delayed the completion of the Texas plan before the 1844 election, thus thwarting his re-election chances.

Ratification and 1844 election

I can just about follow the politics – a fascinating series of plot twists. I don't think, though, that Polk was all that obscure; as a former Speaker and a former state governor, he knew his way around, and must have been a well respected figure in the party. Unexpected as a presidential candidate, though – I understand he received no convention votes at all in the first eight ballots.
The section ends with an uncited statement.

Post-presidency and death

A date or year for the Clay memorial speech would be useful.
"...which eventually jointed the Confederacy" – I imagine this is a typo for "joined", but I'm never sure with AmEng (in BritEng, "jointing" is what butchers do to carcasses)
"he made plans to return to Sherwood Forest for the 18th" – I'd say "on the 18th", to avoid the impression that the 18th was the date of some specific event.
Slightly strange that you move from last words to burial; his death needs to be specifically mentioned. Perhaps "It is believed that he then suffered a fatal stroke".
The information about the proximity of Madison's grave might be more usefully given in the image caption

Legacy

I'm sorry to pursue the Eland theme, but in view of the marked discrepancy between his assessment and everyone else's, would it be wise to add an explanatory note, to the effect that Eland's rankings were based on his own interpretations of the concepts of "peace, prosperity and liberty"?

Family and personal life

Some fascinating detail here: his daughter was alive after the Second World War! And two men alive in 2014 have a grandfather born in the 18th century, during Washington's presidency! Remarkable. I don't, however, see the relevance of the information added concerning Lincoln and Buchanan, and this could go.

Explanatory footnotes

Unless providing mere clarification, these require citation in the same way as text.

That's all. A truly informative article, which gives an excellent context to the career of this little-known but undoubtedly interesting president. I look forward to the article's ongoing progress. Brianboulton (talk) 11:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It looks like Designate implemented many or most of your suggestions. At this point, I'm going to close this and nominate at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]