Wikipedia:Peer review/Land of Confusion/archive1

Land of Confusion

This is a great song, featured a groundbreaking video, and perfectly encapsulated the greed and avarice of the 1980s. I'm hoping that if a fairly new Gwen Stefani song that no one will care about in three months can make FA status, this one can surely make it... or at least Good article status. Anthony 17:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You need some citations. Also, this is more nit picky, but a number of sentences start with The song. It sounds quite redundant. Jtrost 19:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. What citations should be in there? Obviously things in the video are in the video; there's no way to put an internet link to the video, or describe what's in it shot-by-shot. I'm just curious about the citations, if you could please explain further. Anthony 22:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some claims that I see that need to be cited:

Chart Positions in the infobox
The quote from Collins under Song meaning
The song is widely remembered for its music video, which had heavy airplay on MTV.
This is meant to visualize critics' statements that Reagan attempted to "save the world" from Communism.
The different cover versions.

This is an older song, so it may be difficult to find sources. However, I think if you search Google enough or are able to get a hold of archived magazines in a library that deal with the song, you'll be able to find a lot of this information. Jtrost 00:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the "quote" from Collins, those are merely lyrics. Do I have to provide a link to some website with the lyrics on it? The charts and cover versions are easy enough to find (for the cover versions, do I have to provide links to the track listing of the albums they were on?). However, I don't think it's possible to provide statistics for video rotation on MTV, other than I remember seeing it (even at 4-5 years old... it was the puppets). As far as the rest of it, it's simply interpretation of the music video, which is pretty straightforward, based on the imagery and the lyrics. I'll work on that; let me know once I update it how it looks. Anthony 03:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good start. I wasn't aware that the one quote was from the lyrics. I don't think you have to cite that. However, one problem is the fourth bullet point on my list. That can be seen as original research, which is not allowed. Unless someone else has published that thought before, it should be removed. The whole music video section should not contain any interpretations unless they are cited. You can summarize what happens, though. For more information, you can see episode guides of television shows that are available here. They basically summarize everything that happens. As for the MTV rotation, that's something else that really needs a citation. I would suggest finding something that says that the video was heavily played on MTV. Jtrost 13:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anthony, I'm currently fixing up the Phil Collins article (see below for my peer review to date). The process to becoming a featured article is much harder than you initially think, as I've discovered, but hopefully I can share a little of what I learned to help you out. However, you will need to put work into the article. Although I don't like that Gwen Stefani song you mentioned, it is a well written article and I've used it for comparison with some of my own writing.

1) You need references and notes before the article will be considered for feature status. For example, how do you know that the Superman lyric is a reference to Reagan trying to save the world? Also, you say "One interpretation is that Reagan is oblivious to the world around him" -- who's interpretation? Yours? Collins? Those need a reference, either to a critic such as Rolling Stone, or a band member, or video director, or someone. You have to assume that you can back up every sentence you write, and if you can't, it probably shouldn't be in the article. I had to delete a bunch of stuff in the Collins article which wasn't referenced and which, after a Google search, no article besides the Wiki article showed up!

2) You have to take the mindset of someone who has never heard the song before and wants to read about it. For example, your article makes a lot of references to "Collins" in an early section. But who's Collins? Now, you know and I know it's Phil, but "Phil Collins" is not mentioned until toward the middle of the article in "Music Video", although his last name is used earlier. Again, assume someone doesn't know who Collins is. Your intro also needs to be expanded. It needs to outline in ~~2-5~~ 2-3 paragraphs why this song is so noteworthy. To see how I fleshed out the introduction to Collins, compared this before [[1]] and after [[2]].

I hope that helps you. Best of luck with the article. --Ataricodfish 17:35, 3 February 2006 (UTC) Corrected my prior statement, it should say 2-3 paragraphs. See WP:Lead, sorry. --Ataricodfish 02:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A properly added fair-use screenshot of the video (or two) would add significantly to that section. Also, I agree with what Ataricodfish has said. Andrew Levine 21:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm going to add some screenshots of the video once I get home from work... what else needs to be done with this article? I've tried to find websites that have UK charts on them, but the only ones I can find have the last few years... 1986 is hard to find. Anthony Hit me up... 12:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anthony, Here are my comments/suggestions in improving the quality of the article.

The introduction needs more body. Your introduction should summarize the whole article, without touching upon specifics. This Charming Man by The Smiths has a great example of a good introduction.
It might be a good idea to break the song into Composition and Meaning, Music Video and Format and Tracklist. The first section (composition and meaning) should contain some information on the lyrical structure of the song (in this case it is AA BB or Bionic form) as well as what makes the song work, musically..discuss rhythm, beat, riffs, that have a dramatic impact on the song. What genre does this song fall into? What other elements are employed by Genesis to develop the atmosphere of the song — Rutherford's guitar riff and Collins' persistant drum machine pattern used through out the song should be discussed. The musical form of the song is also very typically 1980s Genesis, employing a verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-verse-chorus format. That should be mentioned. What scale is the song in? (I think it might be D major, let me know if you need any help here)
The meaning of the song section is good, but could use some more content. The article makes references to Collins ("Collins takes a pessimistic view..", "Collins then says..")..though Phil sang the song, this is a Genesis composition and any references that are made should be alluded to them, not just to Phil.
Also discuss critical reviews and any quotes that might be attibuted to the song. I can help with this.
Overall, I think the article needs more content. I think you had mentioned screencaptures of the video — this will definately help accentuate the Music Video section. Also, many of the paragraphs have 2-3 sentences. They should be merged for the sake of clarity and flow. Also, please cite any sources you are using. Use the Cite/Cite.php format for your references and notes. Also, cite your references using The MLA style manual. The chart position table looks out of place, and should be positioned alongside the section that discusses structure.
Good luck! Once these changes have been made, I will come in for copyediting. Like I said, let me know if you need any help with some of the suggestions I've touched upon! AreJay 22:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, forgot to mention...many of the song facts can actually be referenced to Scott McMahon's Genesis Discography available here (pdf). It is a comprehensive 475 page discography on Genesis' music. I am adding some quotes to this article that I have referenced using the Cite/Cite.php format...you can use this as an example to cite your sources. AreJay 22:46, 18 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Something to look at: the sweet he wakes up from, does it has something to do with the watergate scandale?

Status of PR?

Is this Peer Review dead? It has been inactive for sometime and should be listed as {{oldpeerreview}} and archived since we're at the end of the month and the PR has been dormant for sometime. AreJay 22:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not dead. I'm still looking up stuff on the video, but I've been a little busy with family matters for the past week. I plan to update the page by the end of the week with some of the information from the Discography, plus screenshots of the video. Just give me a little more time before closing the peer review. Anthony Hit me up... 22:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]