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Lynn Hill

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I'm going to be submitting this article for FA, so please review accordingly. Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 22:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment: Do my eyes deceive me? Apparently not - this will be a pleasure! Brianboulton (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(PS: as a starter you could fix the dablink on John Long)

Fixed! :) And your eyes do not deceive you! This is a really different kind of article for me, though, so I will need lots of help! Wadewitz (talk) 18:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: I'm delighted that you're writing articles again, and it's interesting that you've chosen a new subject area. I want to give this article a thorough review, so I'm doing it in stages. Here is the first half:

General points
  • Some of the direct quotes seem a little long (e.g. "Climbing career", first paragraph)
    • I've paraphrased some of the quotes. I've left others, for a variety of reasons, mostly stemming from the fact that many of the sources are interviews and I want to make sure that readers understand that the information is direct. Many of the quotes I kept are about more charged issues, such as gender, or emotional issues, like motivations for climbing. Wadewitz (talk) 22:12, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I tend myself towards paraphrase whenever possible, and have a habit of putting any direct quote longer than about 30 words into a quote box, which I know some people don't like. We have different ways of doing things. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A non-neutral tone creeps in at times, suggestive of a tribute rather than a factual encyclopedia article. Maybe cut down on a few adjectives?
    • Perhaps you could suggest places where the adjectives should be cut? I was looking over the article, but the places where it might seem overdone are actually true - she was the best or first, etc. She really is a phenomenal climber. Those are the facts! :) I made a real effort to find sources that were critical of her or her climbing, but there aren't that many, honestly. Wadewitz (talk) 22:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • This was more a general impression I had after first reading the article. I didn't make a detailed list, though I remember specifically mentioning "masterful" somewhere. I also picked up "impressive", and thought "great tension" should be just "tension". But these are basically issues for you to decide; I do feel, however, that if strong descriptive terms are used, the text needs to be clear that they are from a source. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • The descriptions of Hill as "both one of the best female climbers in the world and one of the best climbers of all time" are cited in the lead; surely these citations belong in the main body of the article?
    • I think the convention is not to cite the same material more than once, and to cite in the main text rather than the lead. Brianboulton (talk) 14:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • These are generalized statements about her as a climber that seem like perfect lede material and I guess my experience has always been that people ask for citations, so I'm going to leave them for the moment. I'd rather take them out later than have to search for them again! Wadewitz (talk) 22:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Nothing wrong with making the statements in the lead, but as far as citations go, the guideline in WP:WHYCITE reads: "Citations are also often discouraged in the lead section of an article, insofar as it summarizes information for which sources are given later in the article, although such things as quotations and particularly controversial statements should be supported by citations even in the lead." I know this isn't wholly prescriptive, but it does summarise current practice, and there doesn't seem to be a convincing reason for not following it. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Childhod
  • I imagine that a "light pole" is what we here call a "lamp post"; perhaps the term "street light" would cover both idioms? Incidentally, I find it hard to work out what is included in the range "everything from trees to light poles".
  • "Being able to "break down complex movements into their constituent parts" and "perform strenuous and complicated routines with control" as well as "remain[ing] calm under pressure and harness her adrenaline so as to enhance her performance" gave Hill an significant edge in climbing". This rather cumbersome sentence is the second in succession to end with "in climbing"; also, I wonder if the rather clunky quotes are really necessary? The point that her gymnastic skills assisted her climbing has already been made.
Introduction to climbing
  • In the first fairly short paragraph there is rather too much repetition of "climbing/climbers/climbed"
  • Second paragraph (towards end): the words "For example" occur for the first of quite a few times in the article. I suggest you check out how many of these are needed; they read a little repetitively. Also, "female only" needs to be "female-only" in its adjectival form
  • "without hanging on the rope or rely on equipment to skip difficult sections" - needs "relying"
  • "his masterful promotion" - beware the weasel. Also "help ... helping" in the same sentence doesn't read well
  • "Hill and Long spent the winter of 1981 in Las Vegas, Nevada climbing during the day and working nights": perhaps clarify what work they did?
  • "They offered her a free flight to New York and finding she liked the Shawangunks, she decided to stay." Too telescopic; needs a bit more text. Why was she offered a free flight? What was her purpose for going to New York? How come she found a mountain range? Suggest some expansion/rewriting in this paragraph.
  • "After moving to New York, Hill also attended..." Delete "also"
Climbing career
  • I discovered from the link that 5.12 refers to the Yosemite decimal system (having just used a link to find out what "free climb" meant). I suggest a bit more explanation in the text to reduce readers' reliance on links, e.g. "She became the first person to free climb the Ophir Broke in Ophir, Colorado, the hardest route ever climbed by a woman at that time, ranked 5.12d for difficulty in the Yosemite decimal system."
  • "In fact" is journalistic rather than encyclopedic.
  • Is there any useful link for "crack climb"?
  • "Hill's partner at the time, John Long..." Long already identified in previous section.
  • To which of the two (Yellow Crack or Vandals) does the description "the most difficult route on the East Coast" apply?
Competitive career
  • "Hill felt an affinity for French culture and climbing immediately" → "Hill felt an immediate affinity for French culture and climbing".
  • she found it "interesting" to climb with "other strong women"... Overuse of quote marks - these are commonplace words
    • I want to leave in the "other strong women" part - it may be an overused phrase, but she used it specifically to describe her motivation, so I think it is important. Replaced "interesting" with "stimulating". Wadewitz (talk) 20:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "sport climbing" should be linked at first mention
  • The nature of the "World Cup" competition should be explained
  • "In January 1990, Hill set another landmark by becoming the first woman to redpoint a consensus 5.14..." Too jargonistic for the general reader, I think

More to follow. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing

The Nose

  • Punc required in first sentence, preferably a comma after "circuit"
  • I'm a bit puzzled by the logic of "together with her partner Brooke Sandahl, she became the first person..." Can you be the "first person" when you do something with a partner? Wouldn't it be truer to say "she and her partner Brooke Sandahl became the first persons..."?
  • I have a problem with long verbatim quotes, in this case of around 240 words, which could raise issues of copyright. Apart from that, long quotations of this kind tend to detract from the required neutral tone by emphasising a personal, emotional element.
    • No copyright concerns here, as the original piece is much longer. Moreover, I find paraphrasing a passage like this to be much more problematic because I find is slightly deceptive to translate the personal, emotional tone into an impersonal, non-emotional tone. That would not reflect the source. Moreover, climbing is a very personal sport and these kinds of descriptions are what fill the literature, so including them reflects what is published about this event. Wadewitz (talk) 23:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • As I have said, I take a different view about long quotes. There are other guidelines in WP:QUOTE which tend to disparage long quotes and the overuse of quotations in articles, the main argument being that over-reliance on source text damages neutrality. On the copyright issue, WP:QUOTE gives an example: "In one extreme [emphasis added] case, Harper & Row v. Nation Enterprises, 400 quoted words from a 500-page book were ruled to be infringement". I believe this issue needs further consideration, maybe by way of a second opinion? Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chronology: before the quote, the successful climbs are recorded. After the quote we go back to a failed attempt that preceded these, before further discussion of the successful clims It would be helpful if the content was rearranged to reflect the chronology
  • "free the nose": surely as an informal expression this should be in quotes? Also, "nose" should have a capital, and per your earlier reasoning should be italicizes.
  • "downplayed": do you mean "underestimated"? That would make better sense in the context.
  • "She ran out of chalk..." I may be dumb, but why did she need chalk?
  • 10PM → 10pm
  • "a fact which cements her Free Nose ascents as two of the most impressive achievements in climbing history." Such a judgement has to be specifically attributed, to counter the otherwise non-neutral tone.

World traveller

  • It would be helpful to know how long Hill spent in Kyrgyzstan, also when she embarked on travels to the other places you list and whether these took place over a period of years. Were these further travels with the North Face team or independently?

Gender politics

  • Every paragraph in the section begins with "Hill..."
  • What is "bouldering"? Also, the opening phrasing: "Hill repeatedly tells a story..." is somewhat magaziney. The sentence needs reworking anyway, with "and ... and ... and".
  • First sentence, second paragraph: Too long, with "arguing..." followed by "saying...". I suggest: "...climb the same routes: 'I think...'"
  • What was Hill implying when she said "since most women aren't climbing at the same level as the top men, it's necessary to design a route that's a little easier for women"? This seems contrary to everything else she's said, and surely undermines the point of the story in the first paragraph, and also confirms the "sexist" comment in the next paragraph ("...male climbers who believed particular routes were impossible for female climbers..." etc)
    • She wanted to get more women in the sport and since women had less experience, they generally couldn't do the harder routes. It isn't necessarily contradictory, but I think it is important to show her range of views, even if they are contradictory. (And I don't think it confirms the sexist comment - it was true that fewer women could do the hardest routes at that time (for a variety of reasons), but not that it was impossible for them.) Wadewitz (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "tomboy" doesn't need to be in quotes
  • The very long quote from Long that occupies most of the last paragraph should be reduced and paraphrased
    • I think that this quote is a great example of how she was viewed by many male climbers - they didn't see her as a great climber, necessarily. And she had to do something really phenomenal to gain their respect. She had to do more than a man would. I'm going to leave this for now. Wadewitz (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Media

  • Um, from 1980 to 1984 (i.e. 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984) is five years in a row, not four
  • "She proposed a boycott to the other female competitors and ended up negotiating a deal with the producer that the prize money would be raised the next year and she could compete again." Some untidy prose there: "ended up", two ands, and "she could compete again" - had they banned her?
  • I suggest a slight rearrangement: end the first paragraph at "into a man's world", and include the following two sentences with the very short paragraph, to make a slightly longer paragraph
  • Since Hill's autobiography is a listed sources, do we need the publisher details in the text?
  • "standpoint" is actually one word. If it appears as two words in the source, it's a mistake and should be denoted by [sic]
  • "currently" - see earlier note.

Personal life

That concludes my review. I'm sorry if it seems to be mainly nitpicking, but I'm not well enough informed on the subject material to give a meaningful content review. The article looks comprehensive, and is engaging enough; it requires some polishing, a little care with overall tone, and as mentioned, some attention to overlong direct quotations. I've not looked at the sources, but knowing you I'd be surprised if there were problems here. As I am not watching individual peer reviews, perhaps you would ping me if you have any queries with any of my comments. As I said at the beginning, this is a most welcome return to the fray. Brianboulton (talk) 16:46, 3 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It was incredibly helpful - thank you! As usual, I appreciate your meticulousness!
  • It was a pleasure - quite like old times, when I did the Antarctic and you did Jane Austen. I won't do the strikes, as it is clear that you have dealt with my points; there is no obligation on you to agree with my preferences, and we are bound to disagree on some matters. I look forward to seeing this article at FAC - if you can bear the hassle, that is (though I am sure you will be welcomed there). Brianboulton (talk) 01:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment/question One concern I've had with this article since the beginning of writing it is how to make the jargon of rock climbing clear to lay readers. The terms used in this article are elementary rock climbing terms. Anyone climbing for a few months would have been exposed to them, so they are like "molecule" or "planet" or "sonnet", not words we would typically define in other articles. However, Wikipedia's climbing articles are poorly developed, so the links aren't too helpful, but I can't be responsible for ALL of the climbing articles! Also, I feel that stopping to explain basic terms (free climbing, redpoint, etc.) would really interrupt the flow of the writing. Please do let me know what you think. I'm really torn, because I want the article to be accessible, but I also don't want it to end up sounding like a vocabulary lesson. Wadewitz (talk) 23:00, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • On this issue, it is inevitable that articles on special subjects will incorporate to an extent the special languaage (or "jargon") of the subject. You are right in saying you can't keep stopping to explain terms to the uninititated; where appropriate you use links (often imperfect), a modicum of explanation when links aren't available, and you rely on your reader's intelligence to pick up meanings from context. As it stands, this article is pretty accessible. I, who know nothing about climbing or its vocabulary, found only two or three instances where I think further elucidation would be useful, so I don't think this is a major issue here. Brianboulton (talk) 22:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few very minor comment.

  • The infobox says "Highest grade" of 5.14a. Should clarify that's a redpoint, and maybe add highest onsight as well.
    • It is not clear to me how the infobox works. The redpoint info is in the "known for" section. Please edit the box to be more precise. I'm not sure how the infobox for climbers works - I looked around and they seem very inconsistent. Wadewitz (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Inconsistency describes all climbing articles. But since this is the best climbing bio, I'm sure in future people will look to it for guidance. I tweaked the template a bit. See what you think. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 18:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For instance, she had resisted hang-dogging regarding it, like many climbers, as cheating, but after experimenting with it during her ascent of Vandals, she found it a useful way to learn challenging climbs." 5 commas in one sentence may be proper grammar, I don't know, but it read choppy.
  • "There was even a "Great Debate" in 1986 at the American Alpine Club at which a panel of all-star participants (of which Hill was one) were invited to discuss the merits of the two different styles, especially rappel-bolted climbing." Possible to rearrange sentence to avoid parenthetical comment (which should be avoided).
  • Moab should probably be expanded to at least Moab, Utah. Unsure if country is needed.

Great job. :) -Nathan Johnson (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Wadewitz (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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