Wikipedia:Peer review/Music of Israel/archive1

Music of Israel

• The layout is very drab. Are there any images that could be used to break it up a bit? Cordless Larry 16:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Cordless, you are absolutely right! It was in the back of my mind, but I was so hyped about the writing I forgot. Give me a day or two. --Ravpapa 04:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Done --Ravpapa 08:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think it would benefit by having fewer subsections, some of which are rather short. Consider moving some of the detail to daughter articles and combining subsections.
• The section titles seem rather long and should be simplified.
• It should probably also have subsections on music education and the music industry.
• I think for an article on such a large topic, it would be better to have broad subsections with detailed subarticles -- see for example music of the United States (which, in the interest of fair disclosure, I mostly wrote, though I see it has since been messed up with an overwhelming focus on grunge and alternative rock -- ignore those sections for this purpose). Much of music of Israel would be better off, IMO, as the basis for a music history of Israel subarticle, with this article taking a broader focus. I guess fundamentally, I see "music of Israel" as being a basic introduction to how music plays a role in Israeli life today, and should thus cover in roughly equal amounts topics like "education", "economics (music industry)", "history", "social identity", "legal and political stuff", "holidays and festivals", etc. The article as it stands goes into those areas, but primarily seems to approach them from a historical standpoint.
• This approach would give a broader scope to this article, while allowing subarticles (e.g. music history of Israel, music education in Israel, Israeli pop music, music and cultural identity in Israel, as examples) to be more specific and focused.
• I'll also note that, on a casual read-through, this seems to be mostly about "Israeli music" and only covers topics like Russian immigrant folk music inasmuch as it has affected music that is considered "Israeli" - surely in a country with as many recent immigrants from as many areas as Israel, topics like Russian folk music are still relevant to a portion of Israelis today, and should be covered here appropriately. I do agree that "music of Israel" should focus on the aspects of music that are specifically Israeli in character, but a subsection on "folk music in immigrant communities" would be reasonable, as an example. (note: I know little about Israeli music and haven't even read this article thoroughly, so I may be off base with that, but it's worth considering.)
• Anyway, sorry for the rambling - I think there's a lot of good content here, and with a little bit of work, this could be a great article with great subarticles too. Tuf-Kat 00:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for not responding sooner to your excellent and detailed critique. There are things I agree with and other things that I don't, but I haven't had the time to deal with your comments in detail and with the attention they deserve. I promise to get back within a week or so. --Ravpapa 05:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I still haven't had a chance to work on your comments. In general, I must say that, while they are certainly well thought out, in the end I disagree with most of them. Particularly the idea to break the article up into smaller subarticles. I certainly agree with that approach in the case of Music of the United States - the topic is much, much larger, there is much more diversity, and there is virtually endless room for expansion. I think that is not so much the case in Israel. First of all, to separate out the history of Israeli music from the current role of music in Israeli society would be a mistake. This is because the history of Israeli music is relatively short (120 years, compared to 400 years for US music), and because the current role of music in Israel is largely a dictation of history. Unlike American music, Israeli music was a defining element in the Israeli ethos, an element which was consciously molded to create a new Israeli persona.

On the other hand, I believe you are right that much more could be said about contemporary popular music. Unfortunately, I am not a popular music aficionado - I would love it if some really knowledgeable Israeli would expand the sections on Israeli rock, pop and folk. Hey, guys, where are you?

I also agree completely that missing is a section on the musics of the various ethnic communities. You mention Russian immigrants, but that is the least of it. The main subject here is the music of the Israeli Palestinian community. They have their own bands, stars, radio stations. I simply don't know enough about this to write about it yet, but I hope to research the subject and add a section. also, as you mention, Russian immigrants. Also Ethiopian music, and the musics of foreign workers (Philipine, African, Thai, Romanian), all of which is available in stores around the Central Bus Station in Tel Aviv.

--Ravpapa 16:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure we really disagree a lot - I agree that the US and Israel are very different, and Israel's shorter history is very relevant. I don't exactly think history and current music should be separated so much as I think the article should be about current music, and history will be necessary to provide the background for it. So, rather than saying "in the sixties, popular music was about this, then in the seventies, that happened", you'd have a section saying "popular music today includes this stuff, which draws on the sixties development of that and the seventies evolution into this". Much of the content in the current article is fine, I just think it would be better if the overall structure wasn't so history-focused.

This issue might seem a lot less important to me if some other topics, which are more inherently modern-day focused, were covered. Education (e.g. university and other avenues), scholarship (e.g. musicological studies and recording expeditions in Israel), legal issues (e.g. copyright), industry and economics, and holidays and festivals, for example. The "music in society" section is a good start, but it should be expanded and needs a more clear focus. Adding these topics, and covering "ethnic musics", would be a big improvement - do that and my first concern might be a lot mitigated anyway. Tuf-Kat 19:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)