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Mutiny on the Bounty

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. "Mr Christian, come here!" The story of Captain Bligh and Mr Christian is well known and ingrained into modern culture thanks to successful novels and film depictions. But are these accurate to historical events? Only superficially for the most part. The popular accounts commonly depict Christian as effectively forced into action by the incessant cruelty of a psychopathic Bligh towards the crew, but this is not borne out by the evidence—Bligh actually gave out an exceptionally low number of floggings for the time. The real captain's "violence" was one of towering rages and humiliating conversational put-downs, which along with other psychological stressors destabilised Christian to the extent that he deposed his mentor Bligh and seized the ship.

Brianboulton and I hereby present our account of the real life incident, in my opinion a far more complex and interesting occurrence than the simplified version presented in the fictionalised accounts. All comments welcome. — Cliftonian (talk) 22:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley

This is a very fine piece of work, and I have precious little to offer by way of suggestion. You might perhaps expand the lists of runners by putting an asterisk against the mutineers, and possibly adding another column saying where/how each crew member died, if known. There are a lot of names for the reader to remember and distinguish between (Heywood and Hayward don't help!)

I actually made a conscious decision to leave this information out here to avoid "giving the ending away", as it were—a more complete list along the lines you describe is at the companion article Complement of HMS Bounty, which is linked from the top of that section. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That apart, there are, to my mind, a few blue-links that didn't oughter be there. We are bid not to link the names of major geographic features and locations, which, me judice, would include the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans and the West Indies.

OK — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Prose points, of astonishing unimportance:

Lead
- "Relations between Bligh and his crew deteriorated after he began handing out increasingly harsh punishments, Christian being a particular target for verbal criticism and abuse" – the second part of this sentence doesn't quite fit with the first. "Harsh punishments" are not the same as "verbal criticism and abuse". (We might go into Pedant-overdrive while we're at it and ask what form criticism can take that is non-verbal). I'd be inclined to end the first sentence at "punishments" and roll the rest of it into the following one.
  - I've redrawn to "Relations between Bligh and his crew deteriorated after he began handing out increasingly harsh punishments, criticism and abuse, Christian being a particular target." — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Crew
- "Although Christian was willing..." – I'm not sure of the import of the "Although", which seems to deny a causality that I can't spot
  - Redrawn — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To Cape Horn
- "Adverse winds and weather" – aren't winds part of weather?
  - Trimmed to just "weather" — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cape to Pacific
- "he summoned the crew and read the Articles of War" – I take it this is a naval equivalent of formally reading the Riot Act, but an explanatory footnote might be helpful
  - Yes, essentially—the Articles of War were the regulations under which the Navy operated. The notable thing here is that rather than attempting to deal with Fryer's defiance man-to-man, Bligh pointedly made a public spectacle in front of all those Fryer outranked, knowing that Fryer could hardly then refuse to co-operate. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Settlement
- "virtually inaccessible" – but they had accessed it.
  - Hence "virtually" as opposed to "completely". The Admiralty had Pitcairn marked incorrectly so it could not co-ordinate any search mission there. Pitcairn is hard to get to even today. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- "by 1794 the six Tahitian men" – I think this is the first we've heard of there being six of them, but it reads as if we already know.
  - We say above when they leave Tahiti that there were "20 Polynesians, of whom 14 were women". — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cultural impact
- "an unjust tyrant" – tautology?
  - Have changed to "overbearing" as in lead. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That really is my lot. I learned a lot from this article and am grateful to you both for a most enjoyable and intructive read. – Tim riley talk 10:25, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In passing, there is a pub in Cockermouth called the Fletcher Christian: it is on the left in this picture of the man who invented salad cream. I often pass it, and I shall adjourn there next month with my brother and drink a toast to the Bounty and its learned historians. Tim riley talk 13:36, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I shall have to lead an excursion to Cockermouth one day just so I can visit the Fletcher Christian—perhaps as a detour on the way up or back home when Luton play at Carlisle. Thank you for your extremely kind words and the helpful notes, Tim. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nautical Nitpicks from Cassianto

Reading through now, comments to follow... Cassianto ^Talk 10:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Crew

"Among these was Fletcher Christian, 23 years old, from a wealthy Cumberland family descended from Manx gentry." → "Among these was the 23-year-old Fletcher Christian, who came from a wealthy Cumberland family descended from Manx gentry."?
- Good revision; cheers — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you quoting gardeners?
- Because the word would not be used that way today. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Third para we introduce Peckover again with "gunner".
- OK — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cape to Pacific

Do we know why Christian lent Bligh money? Being stuck on a ship in the middle of the ocean, I can't imagine he'd need it for anything?
- This was during the five weeks they were docked at the Cape of Good Hope. Christian probably wanted some money to spend on shore. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tahiti

"Among the belongings Churchill left on the ship Bligh found a list of names that he interpreted as possible accomplices in a desertion plot—he later asserted that the names included those of Christian and Heywood." There seems to be a comma missing from between "ship" and "Bligh". Also, after the first hyphen, we say "he" which seeing as we speak of both Christian and Bligh, may add slight confusion. Suggest: "Among the belongings Churchill left on the ship was a list of names that Bligh interpreted as possible accomplices in a desertion plot—the captain later asserted that the names included those of Christian and Heywood." Or something like that.
- I've used your suggested wording—thanks for this — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"By 1 April the work was done, and on 5 April 1789" →"By 1 April the work was done, and four days later..." or "By 1 April 1789 the work was done, and four days later..." My thinking here is that it could be confused with them leaving the following year as some may think we are still in 1788. It also required me to flick back up the article to remind me what year we were in.
- Redrawn as you suggest—good catch — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This seems excellent so far and I'm enjoying it more on every section, more to come. Cassianto ^Talk 11:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all of this so far Cassianto. — Cliftonian (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

~~Support~~ – Gents, I have now finished reading and I have no further comments. It is beautifully written, thoughtfully illustrated, very well sourced and researched and more exciting than perhaps any book or film that has come since. I can honestly say that this is the best article I have read this year, if not the last two. Cassianto ^Talk 11:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your nitpicks and for these exceedingly generous comments. Maybe save the support for the FAC – more use there, I think? Brianboulton (talk) 14:19, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Doh! Of course, I became confused with the Carl Nielsen FAC which I was reading at the same time. I shall support nonetheless. Cassianto ^Talk 15:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the offered support and the extremely kind words, Cassianto. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. — Cliftonian (talk) 15:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Cass, we'll go for a walk later. No, chilly, dear! Tim riley talk 16:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from the Doctor

Reading shortly...♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Background

"Bounty was refitted under Banks's supervision at Deptford". Can you link the full Deptford Dockyard here, and add "on the River Thames", otherwise it looks like a village initially. Also what date was it refitted?

Link and Thames added. No dates are given for the refitting work, but by inference this would be during the summer of 1787, as the ship was acquired in May and left Deptford in October. I don't think we need more than this. Brianboulton (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Bligh found himself ashore on half-pay" -do we know what his wages were? Perhaps a footnote?

ah, you do later explain "his lieutenant's pay of four shillings a day (£70 a year) contrasted with the £500 a year he had earned as captain of Britannia". so should be OK.

Mutiny

Link cannibalism?

I imagine the meaning is pretty widely known? Brianboulton (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"There were persistent clashes with the native population, culminating in a pitched battle in which 66 islanders were killed and a large number wounded" -I think this could use some elaboration here and more detail on some of what happened.

There's not a lot of information in the sources, except that it was the culmination of constant clashes, mainly over property and women. I've added that bit, but there are no details of the actual fighting. Brianboulton (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Link Tahitian language

Retribution

Link Portsmouth Harbour

Superb account, very difficult to find anything to mention here.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these comments, small fixes all done. Brianboulton (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Doctor. — Cliftonian (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

I copyedited down to "Bounty under Christian". It's a really engaging, gripping article.These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 20:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the copyediting and the kind words, Dan. As always a pleasure to have contributions from you. — Cliftonian (talk) 02:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

Bounty stone, Venus Beach, Tahiti

Always been interested in this story ... very little to comment on

What's the whole HMS v HMAV thing?

The standard form "His Majesty's Ship" is usually used but "His Majesty's Armed Vessel" occasionally crops up (here for example). The inclusion of both forms right at the start, and "HMS" thereafter, was my attempt to reflect this. — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, what do contemporary documents say?--Wehwalt (talk) 10:54, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

" captain Lieutenant William Bligh, " the juxtaposition of ranks suggests that a comma might be inserted

OK — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Bligh

"Captain James Cook's third and final voyage (1776–80)" well, if you are inclined to be picky about things, you might note that Cook didn't make it past 1778.

Added a footnote to clarify this — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Appointment to Cook's ship, at the age of 21, was a considerable honour, although Bligh believed that his contribution was not properly acknowledged in the expedition's official account." There's considerable jumping around in time right here, and a "had been" may be justified.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've attempted to redraw this; is it better now? — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to give the ages of Peckover and Lebogue?

Peckover was 39 and Lebogue was 40 (according to Wahlroos). — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"a community that in due course became celebrated as an exemplar of Victorian morality" Pity that didn't last into the 21st century ... there is a certain irony in your phrasing, beware.

I've attempted to rephrase to clarify that this does not extend to the time of the sexual assault scandal of 2004—"a community that over the next century became celebrated as an exemplar of Victorian morality". Is this okay? — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the cultural legacy section, I think the Nordhoff/Hall books did much to popularise the story even before the 1935 movie.

I've added a nod to these. Hopefully it fits into the prose well. — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article lives up to the subject.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for this, Wehwalt—very helpful. I'm glad you like the article. — Cliftonian (talk) 05:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, will look over your changes today when I am more awake. I sent Brian some photos I took on Tahiti, possibly he will forward them to you.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:54, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK — Cliftonian (talk) 16:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Wehwalt: Thanks, Gary, for the Tahiti images, and apologies for the delay in acknowledgement – my email is having difficulties firing up. The pics include one of the Bounty memorial stone - could you upload this, as I think it would make a fine image for the article? Brianboulton (talk) 08:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Glad to have them of use. I've uploaded it here.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked over the edits and they are fine. I'd more clearly state Bligh's success bringing breadfruit to the West Indies. There are two rather vague references to a second, successful breadfruit expedition, and you and I know what that means but the reader might not.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all this help Gary. I've attempted to clarify. I hope you're well; have a great weekend. — Cliftonian (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]