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Peter Sellers

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because following a recent re-vamp, which has included a new chronological layout; new material and sources being used; and a re-write throughout, the article is now at the stage where it would be appropriate for a further examination for GAC. The ultimate aim for this is to raise it to an FAC. Much editing has been done by Cassianto and an excellent copyedit has been undertaken by Rothorpe. Thanks for any comments or suggestions you may have, SchroCat (^ • @) 09:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: This list of points may look long, but many of them are quite trivial. On the whole this is a very praiseworthy article.

Lead
  • As you say "Ceylon (now Sri Lanka)", you should perhaps add "now Myanmar" to "Burma".
  • "...his parents always called him Peter, after his elder stillborn brother; aside from his stillborn sibling, Sellers was an only child." This clunks a bit; try "...his parents always called him Peter, after an elder stillborn brother, aside from whom Sellers was an only child."
  • "aged two weeks" → "two weeks old"? (sounds less American)
  • Dickie Henderson was less than 3 years old when Sellers was 2 weeks old; if this is the right Henderson I think that fact should be mentioned.
  Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 23:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Schooling
  • I would prefer to see this section divided between "Schooling" and "Religios background", since these are separate topics. On the question of religion, did he receive any guidance from his "good C of E" father? Was his mother observant? It reads at present as though they didn't much care about how Peter resolved the problems arising from his mixed background.
  • Let me have a think about this: it was a religious school, so it sort of became an issue, but I can appreciate the dichotomy of the section needs to be addressed. I'm not sure his parent's religions were pressed too much, but I need to check the sources again. - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Second World War
  • "As the Second World War broke out in Europe, Sellers continued to develop his drumming skills, and he joined the bands of..." etc. This needs rephrasing. The Second World War started in September 1939, when Sellers was still at school. According to the previous section, he started drumming when working backstage at the Ilfracombe Victoria Palace, probably a couple or so years after the outbreak of war.
  • When you say he "joined the bands" of Rabin, Hall etc, I think you probably mean he "played with" these bands when they were engaged at the theatre. He could hardly have joined them all full-time.
  • Can you give a date when Sellers joined ENSA?
  • More clumsy prose: "and auditioned for Ralph Reader to become a member of his Gang Shows". Suggest simplify: "...and auditioned for Ralph Reader's Gang Show." You might also like to amplify on how a serving airman, in wartime, was allowed to alleviate his boredom in this way. Presumably he sought and got permission from the RAF?
  • " before being transferred to India" Clarify: "before being posted by the RAF to India"? In the next sentence, "his tour of duty".
  • "described his role..." → "described his role in the show..."
  Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 23:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Early post-war career
  • Maybe try and clarify Sellers' post-war movements before demobilisation. In te previous section: "He also served in Germany and France after the war" and now "At the end of the war, Sellers was posted back to England to work at the Air Ministry". These are not necessarily contradictory, but it would help if there could be more indications of chronology.
  • "Sellers had difficulty in finding bookings and work was sporadic." Preface this with "On resuming his theatrical career..." or some such.
  • I wonder whether the Measuringworth comparison adds anything useful? These theoretical updates are prone to misinterpretation and misunderstanding, and often cause arguments. For example, £30 a week was at least 5 times the average weekly wage in 1946, whereas £800 a week today is less than twice average weekly earnings. You are under no obligation to provide these comparisons, and in my view, they are best avoided.
  • I think you are "auditioned" rather than "receive an audition"
  Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 23:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1950s
  • "Sellers had his first inclusion in a film in 1950..." Stiff, non-idiomatic phrasing. Perhaps: "Sellars was first involved in film work in 1950, when he dubbed..." etc
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "against the wishes of the Goons themselves". You have not at this point established who "the Goons themselves" are. You need to go back to the previous sentence: "it was not until 3 February 1951 that, as "the Goons", they made a trial tape..."
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This section has a tendency towards over-short paragraphs, and these could be combined. In any event, pronouns should not be used to introduce the subject at the start of a fresh paragraph.
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He continued with his attempts to move into film with a number of small roles, before being offered a role in the 1955 Ealing Comedy The Ladykillers" I suggest: "He continued his attempts to move into films, taking a number of small parts before being offered a bigger role in the 1955 Ealing Comedy The Ladykillers"
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sellers' difficulties in his career and life..." At this point, it seems his career was going pretty well, and you haven't referred to any difficulties in his personal life, so I wonder what is the problem here?
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sellers released his first album in 1958, The Best of Sellers..." We really need some background before this information. When did he start singing, what stuff did he sing, etc? Did he sing on stage, or just in the recording studio?
I need to go back to the sources on this point - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "eleven minute" should be "eleven-minute", or perhaps "11-minute"
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...Songs For Swinging Sellers, which reached number 3 in the UK Albums Chart" Perhaps you should observe the coincidence - his first album also reached no. 3.
Done - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1960s
  • "directional"? I think the word is "directorial"
Done. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it's audiences" → "its audiences" (pronoun, not verb)
Done. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was soon offered" - I'd delete "soon"
Deleted. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Edwards' last minute offer for the role of Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau..." You have not at this stage said who "Edwards" is.
Now mentioned. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "including" shouldn't appear twice in one sentence.
Deleted. Slight elaboration. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an adaptation of a stage play by Harry Kurnitz adapted from the French play..." Too much repetition there
Now at one mention. The English adaption was redundant IMO. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On the night of 5 April 1964, Sellers suffered a series of eight heart attacks over the course of three hours after visiting Disneyland with his family" I would rearrange this: "On the night of 5 April 1964, after visiting Disneyland with his family, Sellers suffered a series of eight heart attacks over the course of three hours." I would guess that, individually, these were relatively minor attacks.
Done. Added "minor" into text. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "concerned that his heart attack..." Singular?
Now a plural.-- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another paragraph beginning with "He..."
Replaced pronoun. The section was stubby anyway and naturally moved into the following paragraph so I have merged. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a point of accuracy, CBEs are appointed, not "made".
Changed. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its presentation" → "the investiture"
Swapped. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was formally finished" → "it was finalised"
Swapped. -- CassiantoTalk 00:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1970s
  • As "Lothario" is a proper name, it requires a capital. If it was misprinted in the quote it should be followed by [sic].
SchroCat, can you confirm this in the source? -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The return to the Pink Panther films was a move that reinvigorated Sellers' career and made him a millionaire". That must be wrong, given the length of his career and appearances in many successful films, just one of which paid him a fee of $1 million!
Again here? -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The full info from the source is "which renovated his career and made him a millionaire". I could turn it into a direct quote to make it a little firmer? - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
1980
  • Being there → Being There
Fixed. -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "also using his long-time friend..." Delete "also"
Deleted. -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Spike Milligan later noted that his heart condition had lasted fifteen years..." Needs to be "Sellers' heart condition"
Corrected. -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Playboy cover is dated April 1964, so why is it in this section?
Moved to 1960s. -- CassiantoTalk 00:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Death
  • "His body was cremated and he was interred..." That should be "his ashes were"
Changed. -- CassiantoTalk 00:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a lot of stuff in this section other than Sellers' death – later family history etc – which suggests that the section name should be extended
SchroCat what shall we rename it? -- CassiantoTalk 00:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Renamed. -- CassiantoTalk 10:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy and influence
  • Some of the people mentioned here need to be explained rather than just linked: Stephen Mangan, Alan Carr and Rob Brydon are probably not international names. Conan O'Brien is almost unknown in the UK.
I have elaborated on Mangan, Carr and Brydon. After realising Conan O'Brien wasn't this, I sourced and replaced. :-) -- CassiantoTalk 00:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have not checked out the images, but I'd say that the magazine cover is much too marginal to justify non-free use. Also, an image that is free under Swedish copyright law may not be free in the US. The licencing on some of the others looks dodgy; for example if PD-Pre1978 is used, as with the lead image, it is necessary to specify when/where publication took place. I would recommend that, before taking this to FAC, you get all the images checked by an editor who is knowledgeabble in this field.

All in all, a thoroughly-prepared and engrossing account of the life of an important figure in comedy history. As I find it difficult to watch individual review pages, please ping my talkpage if you wish to discuss or query any of the points raised in this review. Brianboulton (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Good set of edits Cass - thanks for picking up on a stack of these. I've addressed all the others, except where I've specifically noted. There are a couple of bits I'll have to go back to the sources for, but today is a bit pushed for me! - SchroCat (^ • @) 09:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I've been asked to take a look at the images:

  • File:Sellers-signed.jpg- The source link is dead, and I can see no evidence of US publication, let alone US publication without a copyright notice.
  • File:Sellers pinkpanther7.jpg- Useless, copy-paste rationale. There may be a call for a non-free image of the character if we feel that the appearance [which, as an aside, you spell as "appearence in the article] of the character is a significant part of the history of Sellars, and we are certain that free images of the character do not exist. If this is the case (and I'm not saying that it is, necessarily), better sourcing and copyright information and a more detailed rationale would be necessary; further, the image should really be moved to alongside the description of the character, and the caption should tie it to the text/the rationale, mentioning the iconic appearance of the character.
  • I'm happy to accept the Strangelove screenshots.
  • File:Britt Ekland and Peter Sellers 1964 crop.jpg- This needs a tag explaining why it is in the public domain in the US. If it is not, it should be deleted from Commons.
  • File:Playboy April 1964.jpg- Needs to be removed. The appearance hasn't even been mentioned in the article itself; even if it was, unless the way the cover looked was in some way significant (as opposed to the mere fact that he was on it) a non-free image would not be needed.
Now shown as the lede image. A much better choice as far as I am concerned. -- CassiantoTalk 10:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to be so critical, but this would not have a chance at FAC with the current image issues. J Milburn (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, J Milburn. Slightly sobering and disappointing, but all extremely useful and something else for us to work on: thank you for your time and effort on this - it is much appreciated. I'll put a rationale on the Goons image: in the UK it's one of the main points for which he is still remembered and I'd like to try and keep it if we can. We'll have to work our way through the others and see what we can do for them individually - even if that means deletion. Thanks again - SchroCat (^ • @) 21:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot JM, that's exactly why I asked. I knew you would give a thorough and frank review. Best we have it here than at FAC. Thank you for your assistance in this. -- CassiantoTalk 22:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lobo comments

Right, I've read through the article! It's very good, congratulations. Here are my comments (not many, considering its length). And I have to add that my best friend works at his old school, St. Aloysius! I had no idea he went there before reading this, it's really near where I live.

  • Possibly a bit too much information in the second para of the lead?
  • "He died as a result of heart disease in 1980" - I'd add on his age of death.
Added. -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sellers' performances—either as an individual or as a member of The Goons—" I personally don't think this "either" part is needed.
  • I imagine the anecdote about him starting a detective agency is added because his most famous role turned out to be a detective, but I still wonder if it should be included...it does seem a wee bit trivial. I won't push this point though, I do understand why it's a nice touch.
  • "Spike Milligan later noted that Sellers was very proficient on the drums and "might well have stayed a jazz drummer" .." I think that would be better paraphrased, no need for the direct quotation.
  • "He was demobilisation later the same year." > Surely that should be demobilised?
Well spotted. Changed. -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not very keen on the 2 sentence paragraph in "Early post-war career"...Personally I would lump it onto the previous or following paragraph. It would work fine like that.
  • It's not clear to me why we need so much information about Third Division?
  • Why is the Goon Show image not next to the text about the show?
Moved. -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If Goon Show is one of the main things he is known for, we need some mention of the show's reception and popularity.
  • I think the short paragraph about his first marriage would be far better positioned at the end of the previous section. Also, who was this Anne Howe? What did she do, how did they meet?
  • I agree that we need more information about how he decided to release an album; it comes out of nowhere. We've not heard of him doing any singing before this point.
  • I'm struggling to find anything concrete on this, partly becuase details of his early acts have not been recorded. It should be noted that his album is largely comedy sketches with some comedy songs (mostly done in character voices), rather than proper singing. - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:27, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lots of very short paragraphs at the start of the "1960s" section, which I think could very easily be merged together. This looks more professional and stops the text from feeling slightly disjointed.
I have combined a couple. Obviously i have tried to make sure the text is related to the next. Does this look any better? -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1961, after an interview with Sellers, film critic Kenneth Tynan noted that with Sellers, one of the main "motive forces" for his ambition as an actor was "his hatred of anti-Semitism."" > I find this sentence very awkward, suggest rephrasing. I actually question the importance of the whole paragraph, if I'm honest. I don't think the article would lose much from its omission. Perhaps the comments about religion would be better included in a footnote in the "Schooling" section?
  • Do we have any comments about Kubrick admiring Sellers, and how that led to him being cast in Lolita? Anything like that? It would be a nice addition, I think.
  • I would attribute the quote beginning "indulged in his liking for setting himself problems, encouraged by Kubrick..." (ie, "according to biographer..")
  • Can we have something on the reception to Lolita? A review praising his performance? Would be nice to have a review for The Pink Panther as well.
  • I don't think we need to know about the screenwriters of Casino Royale, do we? And there is no mention of Orson Welles being in the film until this sentence: "A poor working relationship quickly developed between Sellers and Welles.."
  • His character in Being There is not only "simple-minded", is he? That just makes him sound very laid back, where as surely he actually has special needs? It's a while since I saw the film but I don't think this accurately represents the character.
  • "The film was considered by some critics to be the "crowning triumph of Peter Sellers's remarkable career"..." > Some critics, or "one critic"? We have this again lower down. If they are quotes from specific critics, you need to say "one critic" (or actually name them).
  • We get no mention of the reaction to his death. Are there any quotes you can add?
  • I would expect to see "Legacy" come after "Acting preparation".
Moved. -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the first paragraph of "Legacy" would be better suited as the last paragraph. At the least, the second paragraph should definitely come first (IMO).
Moved. -- CassiantoTalk 14:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

General comments:

  • I think it would be nice, if possible, to make the later subheadings of "Career" more descriptive (rather than just "1950s", "1960s"...) Even if they just highlighted his important roles in those periods, it would still give the reader a bit more and prepare them for what is in that section.
  • And it's a bit weird to have the first section be "Biography" but then stop it at the mid-40s and change to "Career". Since the whole thing is a chronological biography, I would put everything under that heading, or change the first one to "Early life" or similar. "Career" may be a bit problematic as well, since many readers may assume this to be *only* his career (when actually, it also incorporates his personal life). I think you're just best off putting all the biographical content under one heading (Maybe "Life and career").
  • The lead mentions that he was affected by substance abuse, but I didn't really get a sense of this in the main text. It needs to be made clearer.
  • I've taken it out of the lead as I think it has too much prominance there. Sellers took drugs (he was a film start in the 60s and 70s, after all) but he never really had any major problems with them, except where connected to his health. I'll added in a reference to poppers and his heart attack shortly. - SchroCat (^ • @) 11:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is far off FA, are you sure you want to bother with the GA process? It can take so long to get reviewed (I waited 3 months for my last one), I think you may as well just carry on perfecting the article then take it straight to FAC. That's up to you though, of course. :) --Lobo (talk) 13:33, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much Lobo512 - your help and comments are very much appreciated. A number have been covered already and we'll go back to the sources for the rest. Thanks again! - SchroCat (^ • @) 15:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A brilliant review as always Lobo. Feel free to come knocking when Charlie Chaplin has his PR :-) -- CassiantoTalk 00:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, I think that may be some time off (I've kind of stalled now I've got to the 1940s - it gets really trick to write now!) but thanks. :) I actually thought of one more comment for this article. The lack of commentary on The Party is a rather big omission. It is one of Sellers' best known films ([1]) and I think it needs a passing mention at the very least. Great work done over the last 24 hours by the way! --Lobo (talk) 10:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, Lobo: I'll start on something straight away on this. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 10:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now added - and thanks for moving and correcting it - I stupidly only glanced at the date! Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 11:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from Tim riley

I haven't got a great deal in the way of comment. The article is looking in splendid shape, and I look forward to seeing it at FAC. One minor spelling point: the OED allows the spelling "ukelele", but prefers "ukulele", which I notice is the spelling of the Wikipedia article on that instrument. You use both spellings in the article, and I suggest you standardise on the second. I see you use the American form of the possessive in Sellers's name, which seems inappropriate for an Englishman. See the Penelope Gilliatt quote in the last para of the "Millionairess, Lolita, The Pink Panther and divorce" section.

Very true: it is now "Sellers's ukulele" throughout, I hope. - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My few quibbles and queries – all very minor:

  • Lead
  • Family background and early life (1925–1935)
    • I had got it into my head that the WP preferred form for year ranges was "1925–35" rather than "1925–1935", but I can't now find anything to that effect in the manual of style. You may like to double check.
    • "aside from whom" – an Americanism; I'd use the English form, "apart from whom".
    • The mention of Dickie Henderson doesn't square with the WP article on him. He was hardly older than Sellers, and was certainly not topping any bill in 1925. I rather think this is Dickie's father, Dick Henderson. You might like to clarify.
    • "say later "I really…" – you need a comma before opening the direct speech
    • "According to Sellers' biographer, Roger Lewis, Sellers was intrigued" – you might make the first "Sellers'" "his".
  • Early experiences of performance (1935–1939)
  • Early post-war career and The Goon Show (1946–1955)
    • "the Windmill Theatre in London which predominantly staged variety and revue acts" – I don't know that this description quite sums up the Windmill. The second half of your sentence is more to the point.
    • "the BBC, then based at Alexandra Palace" – is the location relevant enough to warrant a mention?
    • "KOGVOS (King of Goons and Voice of Sanity)" – I thought it was "Keeper of the Goons and Voice of Sanity", but I can't find my copy of Wilmut and Grafton's Goon Show Companion. Later: Found it. Yes, on p. 15, "Keeper of Goons and Voice of Sanity". As Grafton is co-author I think that must be correct.
  • I'm All Right Jack and early years in film (1956–1959)
  • The Millionairess, Lolita, The Pink Panther and divorce (1960–1963)
  • Dr. Strangelove, health problems, a second marriage and Casino Royale (1964–1969)
  • Death and subsequent family issues
  • Acting technique and preparation
    • The Boultings are given a second blue link here, as is Dilys Powell.
    • The quotation from Sellers beginning "I set out to play Clouseau with great dignity …" is almost, but not quite, the same as the one beginning "I'll play Clouseau with great dignity…" in the "Millionairess, Lolita, The Pink Panther and divorce" section. Casual readers will think you are repeating yourself and careful readers will, I think, be nonplussed by the discrepancies between the two versions.
      • I'll come back to this one: I'd like to keep both in there, but I appreciate what you are saying. I'll dig around the sources to see if there is a way I can do something with the dating to differentiate between them. - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy and influence
  • Notes
  • Bibliography
    • You have a duplicate authorlink to Michael Sellers
      • No longer!

That's my lot. Nothing of any great moment. I think you have the layout and balance pretty well spot-on, and the article was a pleasure to read. An absorbing insight into somebody one admired but is quite glad not to have met! – Tim riley (talk) 17:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, Thanks so much for your thoughts and suggestions. I've made the appropriate alterations and will have another read-through to make sure I've not made any further errors with the edits. A brilliant review for us: thank you so much - it really is much appreciated. - SchroCat (^ • @) 18:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have just been discussing this PR over email with SchroCat. IMO, we have had the best PR any editor(s) could have. We have had the cream of FAC visit us and Sellers has improved tenfold as a resuit. Tim, your comments have been, as always, invaluable. Congrats to my co-nom on his quick reply's and commendable resilience during this brilliant PR. -- CassiantoTalk 19:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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