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Phoolan Devi

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I am putting this article forward for peer review because I would like to propose it as a featured article. I would welcome any constructive comments and in particular I have some specific questions:

  • As regards names, it's hard to know what name to use after first mention, mainly for Phoolan Devi and Vikram Singh Mallah. Any guidance on that would be appreciated. This was discussed at GAR but not definitely resolved.
  • Should there be more detail on caste politics, and if so where?
  • Is her political career significant for anything in particular, since at least in English-language sources there is very little about it?

Thanks, Mujinga (talk) 08:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Alanna the Brave

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Woah -- Phoolan Devi had quite a life story, didn't she? The writing and research is looking good to me, and I certainly think it's heading in the right direction for FA. I've listed a few comments and suggestions for improvement below:
  • Regarding names: I think it would be a good idea to ask WikiProject India for help. It's unclear to me whether "Devi" is a surname or not (this article [1] suggested it might be an honorific), and an FA reviewer would definitely want some clarity/consistency around that.
  • I asked at WP:INDIA and also WP:Women in Red, sadly no response. I'm waiting on replies to some emails I sent, I could also start asking editors directly, since I pinged some to the GA discussion about this but perhaps they didn't see it. Mujinga (talk) 11:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • More on this - anyone feel free to correct me because I'd love to get it right. What my research and questions to various people have told me is that "Phoolan" meaning "flower" is a first name, then since poor people don't (didn't?) necessarily use surnames in northern India, they tend to take their caste name as a surname. Indian name specifically uses Phoolan Devi as an example, saying "Phoolan Devi, known as Phoolan Mallah before marriage" but that is unsourced and most likely wrong because the sources seem to refer to her dad and other family members as XX Devi as well. Having said that, the sources are generally all over the place and in some English-language sources the "normal" convention is followed to use Devi as a surname. However, for this article that is problematic since her whole family is also Devi. So I'm leaning towards using Phoolan Devi most of the time, even if it comes across as slightly awkward on occasion, as flagged up by SusunW. That's what my email enquries have said and I've asked two editors for their opinion, DaxServer and Gotitbro, since (I think) they are familiar with Indian naming conventions. Gotitbro said "Devi here is equivalent to the -ji Indian honorific so a sole usage of that would be equivalent to using Ms., Mrs. etc. in the article. I would recommend using "Phoolan Devi" or her actual surname if it is known (though many married women and the like use Devi itself as a surname)" - so that also backs up using "Phoolan Devi". And I assume this means Vikram should be Vikram Mallah. Mujinga (talk) 10:24, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Mujinga: Interesting stuff. :-) If Devi is an honorific, it sounds reasonable to me to use "Phoolan Devi" throughout the article. MOS:HON also recommends including the honorific when the person is rarely ever referred to without it (i.e., it's part of their common name). I'm a little less certain about Vikram, however, since Mallah isn't an honorific -- how is he usually referred to in sources? If Mallah isn't technically his surname (just a fill-in with caste name), should he perhaps just be referred to by his given name? Alanna the Brave (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm yes you are right - I shouldn't really be assuming anything here! I'll pause working on this for now since it seems this review is also generating a few other questions for expert opinions Mujinga (talk) 17:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      In progress Mujinga (talk) 09:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There's been a few small discussions about these issues eg User_talk:Thilsebatti#Phoolan_Devi and User_talk:MPGuy2824#Phoolan_Devi. Also it seems Indian members of WP:INDIA have looked over the article and made changes, so I suppose that means the article can said to have been checked over. It's not somehow the resolution I would have hoped for, but I think i can mark this   Done now Mujinga (talk) 12:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Bandit Queen section: it states that bandit Babu Gujjar wanted to kidnap Phoolan "for reasons she explained in multiple ways." What reasons? I feel like a footnote may be warranted here, just to help explain.
added footnote Mujinga (talk) 12:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm noticing a bit of inconsistency in how numbers are formatted in this article. MOS:NUMERAL says that zero through nine should be spelled, and most numbers above nine can be either spelled out or numerals, but not both (I'm seeing twenty and 22 in the same paragraph).
fixed Mujinga (talk) 17:04, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most of the article and section organization seems very solid to me, but the section "Popular culture" strikes me as less clear (in both label and content). This section isn't only describing portrayals of Phoolan in media and pop culture, it's also detailing personal life details like marriage and religion. Some of it also breaks the chronological narrative by jumping back in time to 1994 again, after we've just finished reading about her political candidacy in the 1998 elections. Would it perhaps be worthwhile merging the political career and popular culture sections, possibly under a new title? It all seems to take place during the same period of her life.
  • I'd like to see a little extra info about her second husband, Umed Singh. Who was he? How did they meet? Why did Phoolan's sister later believe that he was behind the assassination?
  In progress Mujinga (talk) 09:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
added a bit more info Mujinga (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • When Phoolan was assassinated, she had a bodyguard with her -- was this routine? Did she always need protection during her political career, or did the risk come and go at different times? Was this the first assassination attempt?
  • Infobox photo could use some alt text.
  • Further Reading items could be alphabetized.
  • I tried searching for more info around her political activities, but, as you say, there seems to be very little (at least in English). I found one article [2] that suggested Phoolan Devi was having some trouble fulfilling her political goals (i.e., improving living conditions for rural/lower caste Indians) because her legal troubles were preventing her from physically visiting many of the districts she represented.
  • I checked the perennial sources list, and it looks like The Times of India is not considered a clearly reliable source. In an FA review, I think this article could be challenged on its use of this source.
  • Yes it's true ToI is not regarded as always reliable, but I think it's been used non-controversially here as news and if anything the bias would prob be against Phoolan Devi. So I don't think it's doing much heavy lifting but maybe others will think otherwise. Mujinga (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for the comments! I'll make a start on answering them now Mujinga (talk) 11:21, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again, really helpful comments, I'll work through them all in the next days Mujinga (talk) 11:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SusunW

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As promised, personal stuff done and I'll review this one. SusunW (talk) 13:20, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I find it somewhat distracting that she is referred to by her full name. Why not just by WP:Surname? I see that you are seeking guidance on how to best do that. It does need to be explained if Devi was honorary or not, but I don't see that it is a big hurdle to calling her that. Honorary or not, if it is accepted as her surname, we could use it.
  • Her family was poor and from the Mallah fisherman subcaste, which lies towards the bottom of the Hindu caste system in India, Mallahs being a subcaste of Shudra was a bit hard to digest. Suggest maybe break it in two and define it a bit more, i.e. Her family was poor and from the Mallah fisherman subcaste. The Mallah belong to the social class of the Shudra, a servant class devoted to manual labor in agriculture and affiliated craftsp 113, near the bottom of the Hindu caste system in India. Or something like that.
  • She refused his sexual advances and became sick makes it appear the measles had something to do with his advances.
  • yes that's true! also i realise now that the article presents a narrative of her leaving him twice but she prob left him once and told different versions, I'll have to look into that - it's fun but also very tricky when all the sources don't line up Mujinga (talk) 10:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • dacoits (also known locally as bahghis) first introduction in the body of dacoits should both be linked and tell us what they were.
Also tangentially this might be of interest - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Women_in_Green#An_interesting_development_re_linking Mujinga (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cool SusunW (talk) 13:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Puttilal abandoned her, the previous sentence talks about 2 wives, should specify if it is Devi.
  • done
  • for reasons she explained in multiple ways, but which you haven't explained at all? In the three sources cited, I see only one explanation, the uncle orchestrated her kidnapping.[3] The other sources do point out that her life history often changed and was manipulated "to justify certain dark aspects of her life", which is important to include, IMO.[4] If there are other versions they need to be explained and cited. Refs are not numerical.
  • done - thanks for the prod to go back to Szurlej!
Mujinga (talk) 13:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vikram and Phoolan Devi fell in love; Wouldn’t it be better to say When and then comma instead of a semicolon?
  • The rapists included Chheda Singh, who is he and why is that significant?
  • yeah that's the wikipedia curse, i mainly included it just because there was a source for it, but OTOH maybe it's useful to have a name? it is a bit tacked on though i agree Mujinga (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Never heard the term loudhailer, perhaps link to megaphone?
LOL. Si americanos, no solo los estadounidenses, usan el megáfono. I wonder if it's the same in Spain? hmmmm SusunW (talk) 13:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 22 should be spelled out, as should the numbers in 48 crimes, which included 22 murders and later use of 48.
  • Despite the promise she would not spend more than eight years in prison, Phoolan Devi spent over ten years on remand. so if they reneged on that did they keep the rest of the terms of surrender or not?
  • Charges were dropped in 1994, why? and are you saying that after ten years no trial had ever occurred?
  • After her release from prison, she joined the Samajwadi Party and in the 1996 general election, she was elected I think you could lose the second "she" as redundant and just say was elected.
  • The Kanpur district court set aside Yadav's pronouncement, a decision upheld by the Allahabad High Court.[29] In 1996, Phoolan Devi lost her Supreme Court appeal to have the charges dropped. Would it be easier to follow this complex situation if it said, "The Kanpur district court set aside Yadav's pronouncement to have the charges dropped. The Allahabad High Court upheld the district court decision and in 1996…"
  • I am confused. How does one get bail after a sentence? Bail is typically a pre-trial restriction granted to confirm one will show up in court. Rana had already been to court and was found guilty. I get that the source says he was given bail, but some explanation of the Indian system seems necessary. (I read the whole Indian section of our article on bail and no where does it even mention that bail can be given AFTER someone is convicted?)
I agree bail is for me also by definition what you pay to get out of pre-trial detention before the case is heard .. but strangely all the sources say bail, so still working on this ... Mujinga (talk) 10:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some sources on this:
  • theprint Rana appealed his sentence in the Delhi High Court in 2016, and was released on bail. There has been no further movement in the case since then.
  • NDTV The Delhi High Court has granted bail to Sher Singh Rana, the lone convict in the sensational murder of bandit-turned-Lok Sabha member Phoolan Devi in Delhi in 2001. A division bench of Justice Gita Mittal and Justice PS Teji granted bail to Mr Rana on Friday, who was awarded life imprisonment, on a personal bond of ₹ 50,000 and two sureties of same amount. Mr Rana, who has undergone close to 13 years' imprisonment, was also directed by the court to not interact with the family of deceased and any witnesses. He shall disclose the address at which he would remain available as well as his mobile number which he would be using.
  • Hindustan Times A division bench of justice Gita Mittal and justice PS Teji granted bail to Rana on Friday, who was awarded life imprisonment, on a personal bond of Rs 50,000 and two sureties of same amount. Rana, who has undergone close to 13 years’ imprisonment, was also directed by the court to not interact with the family of deceased and any witnesses. He shall disclose the address at which he would remain available as well as his mobile number which he would be using.
  • Hindustan Times A Delhi court convicted Rana in the Phoolan’s murder in 2014, while 10 other accused were acquitted. Rana challenged the lower court’s decision in the Delhi high court, which granted him bail in 2016.
  • New Indian Express Rana was granted bail in October 2016 after which he launched a political party.
  • Jagran Josh On 14th August 2014, he was sentenced to life imprisonment and INR 1 lakh fine. However, by then people had stopped seeing Sher Singh Rana as a killer and the Hindu Kshatriya Sena had praised him for his efforts as well. Sher Singh Rana was given interim bail after that.
  • Daily Yo In 2016, the Delhi High Court released him on bail, following which he married the daughter of a local politician and even formed his own political party.
I'm still confused on this since Indian bail seems to be before trial and whilst the court does have discretion, non-bailable offences don't normally get bail and murder is pretty much the worst charge (and he was convicted ofc) ... I guess Sher Singh Rana had extremely good lawyers and I need to make a footnote Mujinga (talk) 14:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is definitely a weird situation. Where is an Indian legal expert when you need one.   Definitely needs a footnote, IMO. SusunW (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
i changed my mind on the footnote since I don't know how to not introduce original research; i've rewritten the section in question and added another citation - I've avoided using the term "bail". Mujinga (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • was published in 2020 by whom?
  • "she is suffering" perhaps "[Devi] is suffering" is clearer?
  • Kahani Phoolvati Ki, meaning what?
  • Refs should all be in title case, regardless of how they are published. ISBNs should be properly segmented and be uniform either using 10 or 13 digit format. Some citations give location others not, should be uniform. Ref 43 Sen, Meheli; Basu, Anustup (2013) has an error message, "cite has empty unknown parameter.
  • I';d prefer sentence case for some reason and I think that's ok as long it stays consistent. Hopefully fixed the niggles, the ref43 I don't see an error so hopefully that was fixed already? BennyOnTheLoose recommended Hyphenator below, seems very handy!! Mujinga (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may get nailed, but your call. Title case per MOS says "In titles (including subtitles, if any) that are the English-language titles of works (books, poems, songs, etc.), every word except for definite and indefinite articles, short coordinating conjunctions, and short prepositions is capitalized". Doesn't seem to be optional, but then there is always IAR. SusunW (talk) 19:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Think that's it from me. Really, really interesting article. Complex situations are mostly well explained. Great job, Mujinga. Ping me if we need to discuss anything. SusunW (talk) 16:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments! You are definitely pointing out bits that need clarification in this rather complex biography. I look forward to working them through :) Mujinga (talk) 09:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BennyOnTheLoose

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I'll have a proper look soon. Feel free to ping me if I forget. Thanks for working on this interesting article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I made a few tweaks, some suggested by scripts, but feel free to revert any.
  • I don't think it's necessary for an FA, but some reviewers comment if ISBN's are not in a standard format. You could use Hyphenator.
  • Another script suggested "Member of Parliament" should be "member of parliament"; and that "in order" should be deleted from "rushed to Delhi in order to get Umed Singh" and from "Three years later, in 2021, in order to mark", but I'll leave it to you to make those changes or not.
  • St. Louis Post-Dispatch and Publishers Weekly are wikilinked but other works aren't; should be consistent.
  • There are duplicate links for Kanpur and to Caste system in India
  • If possible, add page numbers for the chapter in Singh, Khushwant (2004).
  • Infobox: "Preceded by Virendra Singh / Succeeded by Virendra Singh" and "Preceded by irendra Singh / Succeeded by Ram Rati Bind" are uncited; I'm never sure whether such info needs to be, for an FA.
  • she was generally popular among Other Backward Classes - sources have "backward castes" and "Most Backward Castes (MBC)" so I don't know whether the phrase currently used in the article is correct.
  • still open
The outlook source uses Other Backward Class (OBC) six times and Most backward caste redirects to Other Backward Class, so I think I'm good using OBC as a standardised term; but I'd still love to get a comment from someone familiar with caste and naming conventions. Mujinga (talk) 12:33, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This hasn't gone as smoothly as I'd hoped, but nobody has said the article is wrong Mujinga (talk) 12:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments, I'm still working through the ones from Alanna the Brave and SusunW so I won't be pinging just yet, cheers Mujinga (talk) 17:00, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more points below. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC) 8 *MOS:CRORE says "Provide a conversion to Western numbers for the first instance of each quantity" (e.g. using the template {{crore}})[reply]

  • The legacy section might need a bit of tweaking per MOS:PEACOCK. (I'm looking at "she was globally famous; she has become a legendary figure")
  • You could add a "ref=no" parameter into the Selected works and Further reading list entries, to avoid "There is no link pointing to this citation." messages being seen by editors who use certain scripts.
  • Cheers for the additional points, I'll answer them now - I didn't ping because things are still progressing albeit rather slowly! Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • MOS:CRORE - thanks that's good to know! implemented
  • I understand it could come across peacocky, but I think I'm following the sources here. She is a rather unique figure
  • "ref=no" Sure why not!
  • Thanks for the tips and by the way congrats on Josette Simon becoming an FA :) Mujinga (talk) 18:13, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Trangabellam

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