Wikipedia:Peer review/Portman Road/archive1

Portman Road

I've done a bit of rework on this article, the tone and sections loosely based on current featured article Priestfield Stadium. At first I thought GA was all I could hope to achieve but I'm optimistically bringing this to peer review with a view to push it all the way to WP:FA. Thanks in advance, as always, for your time and comments. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will give it a once-over, with pleasure. --Dweller (talk) 11:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK Here come some suggestions - (btw is it possible to turn off the auto sign bot?)

wikilink "England youth international matches"
- Not done That's a challenge - there's no general article (that I could find) discussing England youth internationals, the only one I located was England national youth football team but that redirects to the U-17 squad. There seem only to be specific U-xx articles, nothing general that would suit this link. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - fair enough; leave it. --Dweller (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
unsure if "all-seater" is intuitive jargon or inaccessible. It could be that people can't imagine what the opposite is? Perhaps there's an appropriate wikilink or footnote to explain that people once stood in stands, lol.
- Done There's a whole article about this so I've wikilinked it in the lead and in the main... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox includes inappropriate americanism in "field dimensions". Perhaps the template can be used differently or amended to allow the use of the word "pitch" instead, to cater for English English.
- Not done Not convinced this is within the remit of this article, but I'll have a look. I'm no master of wiki-markup though and changing the template would have a serious knock-on effect... it's used in quite a few places! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - The problem is that this template is used for a number of different sports. I could use a static version rather than transclude the template, then I could adjust the text manually, but then it'd be different from all the others, so I'll leave it for now unless anyone has a better idea. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Agreed. One of us can pop along to the template talk and talk pages of some key contributors, to see if they can address this, but I agree a static version would be A Bad Thing. --Dweller (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Any reason why the club moved to Port~~aloo~~man Road?
- Not done Can't find one, I guess the other two grounds were very temporary... but nothing I can cite... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - No worries. --Dweller (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"the ancient office of Portman in the Borough of Ipswich" could easily be misconstrued as a building with secretaries. Think it needs a footnote or wikilink to explain.
- Not done Any suggestions? I can't find a great deal to explain this, perhaps you have an idea? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think this one must be addressed somehow. Google was my friend and I found this. --Dweller (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yeah, got that one too, just wondering how to crowbar it into the article... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - Since I can't find a decent and understandable and relevant reference, I've removed this "fact" for the time being... The Rambling Man (talk) 16:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. --Dweller (talk) 11:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Churchmans end" apostrophise?
- Not done According to the official website, no. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The Supporter's Association funded a number of improvements at Portman Road and in 1952, concrete terracing replaced the wooden terraces at the cost of £3,000" - it's not clear if the two clauses have a definite link, although later in the parag it implies there is one. Clarify?
- Done True enough. Clarification on its way...! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. This is going to be awkward and vague, but the prose of the History section comes across as very choppy and listlike. You might get a better flow by breaking the section thematically, but then again, maybe not. Perhaps some subsections might help, but again, I'm unconvinced this'll do the trick. Not easy.
- I'm acutely aware of this. I was hoping a half decent independent copyedit would aid the flow. Problem is that the history of a stadium is a bit choppy, there isn't a necessarily logical flow (like, say, for a football bio, youth, amateur, professional, international, retirement, manager, etc....).. I'll revisit the prose (I don't want to break the section up) and hopefully you could too...?! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm thinking this through... perhaps a way out is to break the strict chrono order. So long as dates are retained and the overall feel is one of progression through time, it won't matter. Then, within periods of time, like issues can be dealt with as a theme, so for example, a big batch of ground improvements all funded by the association can be addressed without interruption. Free yourself from the constraints of chronology! I'll help more, probably tomorrow. --Dweller (talk) 16:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, can't wait! The Rambling Man (talk) 14:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The George Best non competitive match record seems somewhat puny and silly. I think it'd be worth including only if it exceeded the competitive match record. What do you think?
- Not sure. It's a record, either way you look at it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You need to explain in a footnote how the record for an unbroken run (of avoiding defeat in Europe) could have recently been broken, if the team remains unbeaten
- Done will think that one over...The Rambling Man (talk) 12:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - I expanded the reference with some text to explain this a bit. Perhaps you could rejig if need be? It's a strange thing - Ipswich are undefeated but the number of games Alkmaar went undefeated at home exceeded Ipswich's current record. We're on 31 undefeated, they've got 32 then a defeat. If you feel a reword is required then feel free, I think it's an important record for Portman Road, a bit like the Olympic Stadium for Bayern Munich - should Ipswich leave PR then it'll be "better" than the OS in Munich! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand why you removed the table for E Anglia, but the series of footnotes now looks silly and worse gives an appearance of OR. It's not a very important record anyway. Why not delete it from here and place the table in our Pride of Anglia article?
- Done Okay, fair point, OR indeed. If I can't find a decent single reliable source then I'll axe the claim. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Couldn't find a decent source. Removed. Not sure if it's any better putting in the PoA article either though, still OR unless you change the tone of the reasoning, i.e. it's merely a list of the clubs, their grounds, capacities etc. I think that'd be cool actually now I'm thinking of it, and perhaps a couple of other stats in there too? I'll leave it to you if you want to get an old version of this page and copy the info over! Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Dweller (talk) 12:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude

Here's a few points:

"Football" probably should be wikilinked in the first sentence
Done Done, made it a link to the now in-vogue association football article. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ooh, yuk. Can it be made "football" instead? --Dweller (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
is there a source for the bit about the Witches.....?
Done Yes, indirectly there's a source which confirms the sale of the stand to Foxhall stadium who, in 1971, was used by Ipswich Witches...so I've added the ref. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto for the bit about whippet racing
Done Yes, I didn't cite every sentence because I used only two major sources so I kept it down to paragraph referencing and sentences only when the ref's changed, but I've ref'd it explicitly, from the official ITFC website. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"650 tip-up seats...." - missing comma after "Arsenal"
Done Indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't it be "Supporters' Association" rather than "Supporter's"....?
Done Yes. The official website has this wrong I suppose. Tsk. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
immediately after ref 10 there's a capital letter even though it's still the same sentence
Done Yep... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
maybe pipe "Birmingham City" at the end of the bit about TV to get rid of the ugly double full stop?
Done Dontchajusthatethat.... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
first sentence of "structure" section currently says "The pitch is surround....."
Not sure why that's a problem? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done Yeah, I gotcha. I can't see. Busy day...! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the sentence about the statues should have a comma after managers
Done Yep... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Records section contains a reference to "the Ipswich"
Done One of the few phrases I've never heard used at Portman Road - "Up the Ipswich"! Sounds rude to me.. Still, it's not Arsenal.. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hope that helps! ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it help Chris, thanks for the comments. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Oldelpaso

A few comments from a quick scan.

"Moved to Portman Road" reads as though it was already there. Was it? If so, when was it first used, and who by? Did the cricket club already play there?
- Checking ... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done Yes, the East Suffolk cricket team played there from 1855 to 1936, I found a reference and expanded the text a bit. Should cover the following point as well. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When did the cricket club stop playing there?
- Checking this out...The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done The Rambling Man (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I made a quick change so as not to imply that goalnets are substantial ground developments, hopefully this doesn't alter any meaning.
- Fine by me! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
State that Ipswich Witches are a speedway club, lest anyone thinks they are an occult society.
- Done Absolutely...The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ipswich Town F.C. on first reference, drop the F.C. on subsequent mentions.
- Done I think... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not keen on "superstore" replete with quotation marks. I take this is done because the "superstore" is actually a moderately sized shop tucked into the corner of a stand. If its a shop, call it a shop.
- Done The club call it that because they have several shops in Suffolk but I've reduced its gravitas to store...The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
At the moment the "feel" of the article is more GA than FA, probably nothing a thorough copyedit wouldn't solve.
- Any volunteers?! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There must be more to write about how the stands look or are constructed than "All stands are covered and are multi-tiered", even if its just a link to cantilever.
- Doing... Yeah, I'm aware that the structure section is light. I'm trying to find more suitable material for insertion here... the Conrete magazine seems like a good place to start, thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Call me an ignorant northerner, but Luton, part of East Anglia? Assuming that is what the table refers to, of course. It needs further explanation.
- Doing... Okay, I may just axe the table altogether and make the claim, substantiated by the various references, perhaps with an explanatory note to say what I'm harping on about. As for Luton in East Anglia, well the modern definition of EA seems very loose. But I take your point...! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Done Removed Luton, removed table, just kept in-line references. I've also expanded this section a little more to discuss Portman Road's proud unbeaten Euro record. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this helps. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I'll deal with the specific ones tomorrow. As for GA vs FA, well I'm following the Priestfield Stadium model and would very much appreciate a decent copyedit if that's what you think it might take to move from one to the other. I've aware that the Structure section could do with expansion (I'm still looking for decent sources to help with this) but other than that (and the copyedit) I don't think the article is missing too much. More tomorrow, but thanks again for your time and effort! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR _t 04:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]