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Wikipedia:Peer review/Raynald of Châtillon/archive1

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Raynald of Châtillon

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The article is about a controversial (or rather notorious) crusader leader. He assumed power first in the Principality of Antioch, then in the Lordship of Oultrejourdain through marrying wealthy heiresses. He tortured the Patriarch of Antioch, plundered the island of Cyprus, and launched a plundering raids against the Arabian coast. He was captured in the Battle of Hattin, and was beheaded by the victorious Saladin himself. I've listed this article for peer review because I still have doubts about its neutrality and comprehensiveness. Thank you for your suggestions, Borsoka (talk) 06:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tytire

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I find the article very comprehensive and exhaustive. Well sourced and written. The incipit is way too long and detailed, it may be shortened drastically (one para).Tytire (talk) 09:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from UC

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Medieval history can be complicated at the best of times, and this article does a good job of holding our hands through a lot of characters, places and events. I'm particularly impressed with the integration of a tricky historiographical tradition throughout. Some suggestions and observations below. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 16:07, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've never heard of the Palladii, and a quick Google doesn't turn up a lot (there's the odd Palladius in Roman history, but it doesn't seem to be a family name). How sure are we that these senators actually existed?
  • Agreed with Tytire that the lead is currently somewhat outsize with the rest of the article: I'm not sure about drastically shortening it but pruning it down by about 20-25% might help. There's a bit of verbal flab that can go without causing much bother: for example, the reigning Princess of Antioch can simply be cut to Princess of Antioch, as we generally assume people's titles are current unless stated otherwise. Similarly, Raynald made a raid in the valley of the river Euphrates at Marash to seize booty from the local peasants can be Raynald raided Marash in the Euphrates valley to seize booty, and was held in prison can be was imprisoned.
  • I made an attempt to reduce the text.
  • I'd always briefly introduce people and places: a few words as to who a person is. Generally, job, nationality and, if appropriate, rough era are helpful for people; the modern or ancient country is useful for places.
  • I introduced people but I think introducing places is mainly superfluous.
  • I could do with a little more context in the Prince of Antioch section as to why everyone's fighting: I understand the Byzantines and Armenians, but why do the Knights Templar get involved, and where does Cilicia come into it? The map here is very useful.
  • A small thing, but citing five sources for Raynald's beheading comes off as WP:OVERKILL.
  • The statement has been frequently questioned by editors (or vandals).
  • There's a long quote from al-Athir: we generally discourage lengthy quotations from primary sources. Is there a good rationale for presenting all of this without commentary?
  • I always prefer to quote primary sources and I think this quote is not extremly lengthy.
  • Deleted.
  • The "Legacy" section seems to be more a "Historiography" one: I don't see much comment on the impact (or not) of Raynald and his life and actions after his death.
  • Changed to "Assessment".

I am really grateful for your comprehensive review. I need some more time to address all issues. Borsoka (talk) 04:51, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No problem; nice work with the replies so far. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:13, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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