Wikipedia:Peer review/Stefon/archive1

Stefon

Hello! First time sending an article to Peer review. I have been trying to upgrade this article for some time now, and would love to get some help.

A few things I'd love to get opinions on:

• Lead. I don't know how to phrase the lead without it being too janky, I guess?
• The development and character section. I feel like it's not really clear enough, but I have no idea how to fix it to make it clearer.
• Reception. I don't know if it's because some sources are region-locked, but I haven't been able to find much sources, especially on reception. Also, I feel like it's messy.

But I'd appreciate any kind of help either way since it is a work in progress. Again, first time 😅 Thanks, Spinixster (chat!) 02:35, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Z1720

Comments after a quick skim:

• The lede is quite short. I suggest that other sections from the article that are not mentioned in the lede be included.
• There are a lot of one sentence paragraphs, which are discouraged in articles per MOS:PARA. Suggest expanding these, merging sentences together, or deleting.
• There's lots of information that might not be necessary in this encyclopedic article because they feel like trivia or WP:FANCRUFT. Some examples include:
  • "After Seth and Stefon returned to the studio, various characters from Weekend Update gathered to congratulate them."
  • "However, this appearance was much briefer than his others, with his appearance only lasting about 30 seconds."
• The "Future appearances" might go against WP:CRYSTAL and should be incorporated in other sections or deleted.
• I think there are a lot more sources that can be included in the "Reception" section. WP:RS/P, Google, and WP:LIBRARY are good places to look for more sources. Try searching for reviews of individual Saturday Night Live episodes where Stefan appeared that have been published by pop culture websites like A.V. Club, especially Stefan's wedding episode (as that was seen as a farewell appearance by the character, so there might be lot of retrospective about that character in the review).

I hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 16:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720:, thank you for the comments. I have tried fixing some of what you have pointed out, and I have a few questions too:

• For the future appearances section, I have merged it with the Guest appearances section. Does it fit there, or should I just delete it?

• I think I'm OK with it being there, but it doesn't need a quote about whether he will go back, just a sentence saying that he has considered it. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

• "After being unable to perform the character without breaking for two and a half years..." about this sentence, would that also be considered fancruft? It was part of the original article before I edited it.

• This can be taken out. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

• About the lede, how can I expand it? I wanted to put the fact that the character was made by Hader and Mulaney in the first sentence, but it felt too long.

• Information about his creation should be in the lede. When I create a lede, I ensure that there is at least one sentence from each section of the article body in the lede. Think of the lede as a summary of the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I still struggle with sourcing however, I have scouted Google and WP:RS/P before, but I only managed to find the reception sources already stated in the article. (There were more sources, but they were either not reliable, or just repeating another source.) I'll try out WP:LIBRARY, but I don't know where to find sources related to Stefon, so it might be a slow process.

• Search all websites listed as reliable at RS/P independently and see what pops up. AV Club probably has more information in their individual reviews of the character. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I wanted to mention the fact that his quote "New York's hottest club is ___. This place has everything, ___" is used a lot in culture and somewhat became a meme, but I highly doubt I'll see any sources about that quote that isn't an article using it.

• If it is stated in a source that it has become a meme, then it can be mentioned in a legacy section. If not, then this cannot be included as that would be original research. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you anyways :D Spinixster (chat!) 09:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Comments above. Z1720 (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I have attempted to expand the lead, and I also added 1 source I randomly found. How's the lead now? Spinixster (chat!) 08:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello, quick update: I have done a bit of copyediting on the article plus more references. There are still a few things I'm not sure about:

• I'm not sure about the Character section; it seems like a big mess and might have some fancruft. But I have no idea what to get rid of and what to keep. Maybe you, an outsider, can help me with that?

• Take a look at Homer Simpson: while that is a featured article and has decades of information to draw from, the layout and prose might help you get a sense on what to keep and what to delete. Z1720 (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• I'm still concerned about the number of references used in the article. Is it too little? Too much? I feel like I used too many interviews, so I tried my best to steer clear of them unless they were needed.

• More sources are always better than less. For some of the development information, interviews might be the only sources available. Peer-reviewed sources are desired over interviews, so replace the interviews with peer-reviewed sources whenever possible. Some places where you can find sources are WP:LIBRARY, Google searches, archive.org, doaj.org or your local library system. Z1720 (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Should I mention the romance between Stefon and Meyers in the skits leading up to the wedding? I think it might be needed for context to the wedding, but it can also be fancruft, so I do not know if I should mention it.

• If the sources mention the romance, then I would include it. If this is something that you have inferred, then do not include it as it is original research. Z1720 (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, that's a lot of questions, so I'll stop here. Spinixster (chat!) 02:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720, have you seen my messages? Spinixster (chat!) 02:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

@Spinixster: I missed your questions before, but I have now answered them above. Z1720 (talk) 00:17, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720, sorry for the delay, but I have tried to add some information. I highly doubt I'll see any peer-reviewed sources since the character doesn't really have any impact outside of SNL, but I have added other information. What do you think? Spinixster (chat!) 13:15, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The article looks a lot better. I am still concerned for how small the Reception section is, and I suggest looking for more sources that review episodes of SNL to find out what Stefan's reception in each episode is, as this will provide information to add to the article. Otherwise, it looks like it might be ready for a GAN run. Z1720 (talk) 19:12, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Most sources I find about Stefon say things like "our favorite club boy, Stefon", so I am not able to mention it in the reception section.

I did see in the book (second-to-last section) that Paul McCartney and Robin Williams are fans of the character, but I hesitated to add the information as it could be cruft.

I'll try to see if any other sources are available. Thanks! Spinixster (chat!) 01:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Z1720 again. Upon a quick reference spot check, I noticed that a lot of information was wrong (usually parts from before I touched the article) or misread, so I have done a lot of correcting on the article. I also added references to reinforce some points. It will be great if you take a look to see if it's okay.

But there's a problem. The Guest appearances section has each appearance separated, but most paragraphs only have around 1-2 sentences. Should I merge some sentences together?

I'm still working on the Reception section, but I'm honestly more worried about the character section, as there's way less information on that, so please don't worry about that. Spinixster (chat!) 11:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

I would merge some of the guest appearances paragraphs together into 2 or 3 paragraphs. Z1720 (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720, I have done so. What do you think? Spinixster (chat!) 08:40, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Spinixster: Looks OK after a quick skim. Z1720 (talk) 14:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Nice! Do you think there are other issues with the article? I'll try to fix them. Spinixster (chat!) 14:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Comments below:

• Not sure "BoBo BaBushka" is a reliable source. I suggest removing it.
• Suggest putting the sources in "Works Cited" in bullet points.
• Lede should be expanded more. For example, "also been criticized as being stereotypical." A stereotypical what? Also, subsequent appearances after Hader left SNL should also be mentioned in the lede.

That's all for now. Z1720 (talk) 14:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720 I have done so. The BoBo BaBushka source is to clarify that artist Irene Hwang is the creator of the doll and it was made as a gift. Is it cruft? Spinixster (chat!) 02:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think this information is needed if a reliable source cannot be found for it. Z1720 (talk) 22:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@Z1720 I have removed the source. The source was a post on the artist's website, but I understand why it shouldn't be included. Any other concerns? Spinixster (chat!) 01:15, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

No concerns after a quick skim. Z1720 (talk) 03:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, and thank you for your comments, it helped a lot. Spinixster (chat!) 09:11, 19 June 2023 (UTC)